Interesting points on the agenda of the WC-meeting in Paris mid December are the permission to use GPS devices and a discussion concerning handicap for curved dagger boards.
Which are your positions concerning these matters?
Kai
I think a list of approved GPS devices is a good idea, at the moment magnetic sailing compasses are more expensive than their GPS counterparts anyway (Tacktick etc).
Not aware that there are any F18s with curved foils.
With boats are expensive enough as they are and declining fleets I'm not sure if that is the way to go.
With regards to GPS enabled devises.....things like the Speedpuck will not change the game. The guys at the front of the fleet will be the same guys whether or not they are using one. Same for the mid fleet and back of the fleet groups. Personally, I tried sailing with a tack tick for a while. While racing though, I hardly ever looked at it. After a tangle with the spin sheet, it went over board. Never bothered to replace it. Results certainly have not changed as a result.
Curved daggerboards are another story. The council could, potentially, make every F-18 currently sailing obsolete. If they want to bring about the end to the class, then go ahead and approved curved boards. Personally, I think it would be crazy to approve. If there are sailors out there that want to sail boats with curved foils, go by an A-cat, F-17, or Nacra F20. Leave the F-18's out of that game.
The USF18 Exec is currently looking over that agenda, there are definitely some interesting points.
As far as the curved daggerboards, it would be nice to see the actual proposal as I'm not entirely sure what they are actually suggesting!
GPS should be allowed, that rule is a bit silly. Won't change a darn thing, the pros will still be pros.
+1 on the curved daggerboards, need to see the proposal. Actually I'd like to see the boat!
You can see the boat. Check this out. But please....DO NOT make it F-18 class legal!!!!
http:/
Seen that particular cat up close but apart from the hulls there is little F18 about it (3m wide, carbon mast, foils, etc).
That's the GC32 prototype. Agreed its not a F18.
I think the proposed marketing plan is interesting and quite ambitious, trying to develop F18 into a sort of brand.
Not sure if there is an audience for F18 branded items though, but I could be wrong.
Leave the F-18's out of that game.
Would this then doom the F-18 design to obsolescence?
Sort of like when the N20 rule kept an outdated sailplan?
But I guess there are still many huge fleets of outdated designs (laser, Opti, Star, 420, etc)
Would this then doom the F-18 design to obsolescence?
F-18 was never meant to be cutting edge. It was meant to provide a level playing field between manufacturers with controlled development that would keep it
affordable
to the sailors. So far, that plan has worked brilliantly.
F-18's could be built full carbon, carbon spars and beams, curved foils, etc. but that would defeat the purpose of the class. If that's the kind of boat you want to sail, go buy a Marstrom 20. That is not what F-18's are meant to be.
Leave the F-18's out of that game.
Would this then doom the F-18 design to obsolescence?
Sort of like when the N20 rule kept an outdated sailplan?
But I guess there are still many huge fleets of outdated designs (laser, Opti, Star, 420, etc)
Jay, the N20 didn't die because of the
outdated
sail plan! If that were true we should have seen the N20 resurrected from the ashes when the p-cola group created a new class allowing sail plan development. You also need to ask yourself why the F20C class hasn't blown up.
Many consider the F18 obsolete right now and so freaking what! I didn't join the F18 class because of its light weight and carbon fiber!
Like Karl said there are several curved dagger board options out there, leave the F18 alone. I for one feel very comfortable that straight daggerboards will NOT be the classes downfall. When racing class do we really give a sh!t if we don't have the latest go fast gizmo? There is a lot to be said for stability. When someone lays down 20K+ for brand new boat only to find out that they need to upgrade their boards at the tune of another $2400 can get you thinking, is this class worth the expense?
We also need to ask ourselves who is bringing the proposal forward, who do they work for and are they really considering the impact to the weekend warrior, which by the way is the core of the class. What is good for the pro's can often be at the expense of the amateur.
I put together a poll for the Eastern Area F18 group that addresses the proposals on the agenda. Mike and I are trying to get it circulated amongst the other areas as well. If you are a US F18 sailor, please fill it out and pass it along to your fleet.
https:/
https:/
Jeff,
The first question under F18 Branding needs a
none of the above
option.
Dave
Dave, good point! I will edit.
-done
Done, and thank you for putting that together. It's a very efficient to get a read on the fleet.
Is there a way to see the results of the poll?
Results are available for the USF18 exec. I will summarize the results after the international meeting.
interesting question posted about making the F18 website commercial.
What kind of revenue projection would something like that have, and where would the money go? What qualifies an advertiser? Russian Brides come to mind...
If it involves a donkey and a midget, I'm in.
Tony, how does the dutch class association determine how to vote in Paris?
I am not entirely sure what the procedure is, or even if they're is any to begin with (could be wrong though).
With Curved boards on e the table would that include straight canted boards and Asym design boards? Whaat about L boards like the Viper and C2 have as an option.
That flying Tiger got an extra 10 knots foiling so 7 grand for 10 knots on a Tiger?
Cheap speed there
As far as I know curved daggerboards for the F18 are not on the agenda.
I think the agenda point is about the observation that in the today's handicap rating systems (e.g. Texel), the form of the boards is not a factor affecting the rating. This is disadvantageous for the F18 when it competes at for instance Round Texel (e.g. Nacra F20, F17).
Over the past few years we have seen the changes in handicap formulae pretty consistently 'hurting' the F18's rating.
Rating committees are 'behind the curve' so to speak on curved boards; that's hurting the F18, and should be addressed a.s.a.p.
Thanks for the clarification.
I think the agenda point is about the observation that in the today's handicap rating systems (e.g. Texel), the form of the boards is not a factor affecting the rating. This is disadvantageous for the F18 when it competes at for instance Round Texel (e.g. Nacra F20, F17).
Over the past few years we have seen the changes in handicap formulae pretty consistently 'hurting' the F18's rating.
Rating committees are 'behind the curve' so to speak on curved boards; that's hurting the F18, and should be addressed a.s.a.p.
The agenda items is pretty vague:
18. To discuss Formula 18 handicap regarding curved Dagger board
Some could argue that the class needs curved dagger boards to better compete in handicap racing. I know it makes me feel unclean to even type that statement but the point is the agenda item is very vague and I'd really like to see what this item really is. As stated though, it's just a talking point at the meeting as you said.
Didn't they just make the F18 rating faster!? If the intent of the curved dagger board discussion is for the International class to go to the various handicap committees and petition that all the curved dagger boats get a rating hit I really think that is is going to fall on deaf ears. I'd also be a little disappointed to find out the IC is getting distracted by handicap racing.
I'll let you in on a little secret regarding handicap ratings... they rate the talent not the equipment.
Oh and the argument that handicap racing results are hurting or helping the class is rubbish! When was the last time a Hobie 16 won Texel? Yet strangely the class survives. Please please please lets not get sucked into the handicap racing vortex.
18. To discuss Formula 18 handicap regarding curved Dagger board
Some could argue that the class needs curved dagger boards to better compete in handicap racing. I know it makes me feel unclean to even type that statement but the point is the agenda item is very vague and I'd really like to see what this item really is. As stated though, it's just a talking point at the meeting as you said.
Didn't they just make the F18 rating faster!? If the intent of the curved dagger board discussion is for the International class to go to the various handicap committees and petition that all the curved dagger boats get a rating hit I really think that is is going to fall on deaf ears. I'd also be a little disappointed to find out the IC is getting distracted by handicap racing.
I'll let you in on a little secret regarding handicap ratings... they rate the talent not the equipment.
Oh and the argument that handicap racing results are hurting or helping the class is rubbish! When was the last time a Hobie 16 won Texel? Yet strangely the class survives. Please please please lets not get sucked into the handicap racing vortex.
The calculator is being revised again now. As Dave points out - the adjustment is to make the formula match the racers results.
The discussion of a formula based system is basically BS. The A class long ago left handicap sailing where they used this, as the correction factor for them was so severe, there was no way they could ever correct out. Note the A class is going strong worldwide without having to tag along with some handicap system.
Currently there is no adjustment in the calculator for curved foils. If this falt in the calculator stands another season (and you think there is an advantage to having curved foils) then this would be a free ratings basher - like they need another one of those.
You guys have a strong class, why is there any discussion about screwing it up for some moving target. I though that was the whole point of a formula/box rule class was to have equalracing in a fleet that was not subject to the whims and problems of the handicap racing.
Handicap racing isn't something the F18 class needs to be worried about. Most racers don't really care that much either (ex: Alter Cup). Besides, the F18 is the reference boat under some handicap systems (SCHRS).
The more important question the class should be asking is how to handle future development. Besides continued sail and aluminum mast section improvements, it could be argued the class is tapped out on gaining performance through hull shape and current foils within the existing rules. I think that is just fine and I bet the majority of sailors would agree, but there is always the concern that some wiz bang new boat shows up on your beach and beats you to the bar a few miles away.
Sam,
Lots of F18 sailors attend regattas like Texel with the intentions of winning, therefore the handicap system is very important. We don't need to worry about it a lot but it is something we have to keep up to date. I believe Eurocat and some other major regattas also have a distance race that's scored on handicap? Not to mention our little races over here.
I disagree with your perception that the class is tapped out with hull shape and current foils. Boats all have different chord lengths, shapes, and etc. If it was tapped out everyone would be using the same blade. In addition, manufacturers are still toying around with where the best placement of the board is. While the boat is most user friendly with it at the shroud, it's still not known if that is the fastest place to have your board. There's even been talk about having it in front of the beam but no ones figured out how to keep the load off the rudder in this situation. But if someone could who knows if it would be faster.
All the developments coming through these days are minor but that's what is keeping the class alive. I definitely wouldn't say the development is done anywhere, but it is hard to imagine any kind of game changer coming along which is exactly how we want it.