New weight categories, effective now.

The minutes haven't been finalized so only those that were there know about it.

Ah. Well, now it is out there. Those of you making plans for Racine, make note. Much more headache for the folks at weigh-in than for any competitor. Guess we need to update the weight chart inside the scales case. 😉

Why more head ache at the weigh in?
Competitors register, get weighed and the the weights are posted on the notice board. What's different?
Its up to the sailors to decide what size rig they are using and carry the right amount of lead.
The new ruling just means that less crews have to use the small sails

So a 130kg crew has to carry 12,5 KGs of lead when using the large jib+spin? (135-130+7,5).

Yes.

Hi Paul -

Maybe just more headache for me, then. I had the

old

way sorted out in my mind, and my neurological pathways are becoming calcified. From another angle, someone who shows up with 12kgs will have to be creative to meet the rule on placement...

I raced for a couple of seasons at 130kg on the small sails very competitively. I disagreed with the reasons presented for the change, but thems the breaks - the vote is now history, and barring any aberrant race results in the next year or so, this will probably become permanent.

Do I have this Correct?

Weight(Kg)/Sail/Corrector Weights
115-130/small/half the difference between weight and 130 Kg
130-140/small/none
130-135/large/half the difference between weight and 135 + 7.5
135-115/large/half the difference between weight and 150
150+/large/none

hi guys--

I'm still wrapping my head around this and hoping someone can clarify.

I've reread this about a dozen times and for the life of me can't figure out what the point is in introducing the 135 kg threshold. My math sucks, but can't you just collapse both of these bullet points into one:

Crew between 130 kg and 150 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to half the difference between their actual weight and 150 kg.

Why bother with the 130-135 interval? Doesn't it all amount to the same thing? What am I missing?

I'd like to get confirmation on summary like rhodysail. Here's what I'm reading though:

Weight — Jib/Spinnaker Size — Corrector Weight

< 115 — You don't sail.
115-130 — small sails — half of distance to 130
130-140 OPTION 1 — small sails — no weight
130-140 OPTION 2 — large sails — half of distance to 150
140-150 — large sails — half of distance to 150
> 150 — large sails — no weight

C.3.2 (b) (2) has not been stricken from the rules. The revised C.3.2 (b) (3)—the meeting minutes mistakenly identify the changed rule as C.3.2 (a) (3), but it's obvious what they mean—just opens up an alternative for the 130-140 interval (with a bunch of unnecessary gobbledegook about 135...).

Non?

Never mind. I guess my English sucks too. I'm thinking about what it might cost me to get a secondhand Tiger. So I'm not up-to-date on the class rules. And being on the light end of the scale I'm trying to understand whether I need to factor in the cost of a brand new small jib and kite.

This thread suggests that small jib & kite are no longer options unless crew weight comes in under 130 (i.e., the new proposed rule really replaces C.3.2 (b) (2 and 3), even though that's not exactly what the minutes say. The breakdown is then:

< 115 — You don't sail.
115-130 — small sails + up to 7.5 kg of lead
130-135 — large sails + 7.5-12.5 kg of lead
135-150 — large sails + up to 7.5 kg of lead
> 150 — large sails — no weight

That is a headache.

Rhodysail has part of it wrong. Crew 130 -135 has to carry the actual weight between 130 and 135 (not half) and then 7.5 kg. If you weigh 130kg you need to add 5kg+7.5kg=12.5 to use the large sails or use the small sails and no weight.

• Crew between 130 kg and 135 kg may use the large jib and large spinnaker and then shall carry extra weight equal to the difference between their actual weight and 135 kg + 7,5 kg.

Hi Pinax -

The rule was passed partly on the idea that lighter crews buying used boats (with big sails) did not have the budget to buy new small sails. You always have the option to use small sails at ANY weight category.

One of the reasons the US Class opposed this rule in July was because it adds confusion... obviously so...

Thanks, John. Hence the repeated

may use

instead of

shall use

... Hah! It's all crystal now!

Bump...

Is this still in effect for the 2012 F18 Worlds in Long Beach, California?

After last weeks racing at the worlds I'm wondering if the crew weights are of any benefit at all to the class.

How so, Bob?

The weight advantage of crews is repeatedly reflected in the results during drifters. Its driving combined crew weights to minimum weights. Most I have spoken with think the changes suck.

In fact, is there any way to get the crew weights from the world's? The sample size may be large enough to correlate with wind speed to see just how bad the big teams are getting hit in the light stuff

... just out of curiousity: when you are at the border between small and large sails, are you allowed to change the sails with the appropriate weights during a regatta? Like small sails on a windy day, large sails at low winds?

As a heavy team we suffered the first day and when the wind piped up we started making up places.
Day one was light and shifty we were 2nd or third from the back in 56-53-53.
Day two 57 lighter then the wind built and we were 53-46.
Day three wind was on we were 46 and 25th when we bit it downwind on leg 5 of 7.
At 370 the wind is my friend.
I was also carrying 6.1 kilos because my platform is light. There is a rule that could change. I'm already carrying 40 pounds extra can I get a break on the 13 pounds for the light boat.

We have a complete measurer's report from Worlds that includes boat and crew weights along with correctors. I'll figure out how to post it.

As far as changing sails during an event - verboten. Can't do that without damage that is shown to the Jury, and they approve/disapprove equipment changes. That was seriously glossed over in Long Beach. We're not even supposed to change equipment in a weekend regatta.

We weighed in at 140 kgs. 10 kgs underweight. We showed our most consistent results in the gold fleet on the windiest day. Granted it wasn't overly windy so I'm not sure that it is a great indicator of light weight crews in windy conditions. Never more than about 18 knots. If it had blown 25 we probably would have gone backwards upwind. Just not enough skill to compensate for the lighter weight. We also suffered in the light wind races on the last two days thanks to poor decision making. Our weight savings was not close to offsetting poor tactics and decision making. That's my two cents.

1st Place - FRA 36. Boat, 177kg, crew 158kg.
2nd Place - NED 2. Boat 180kg, crew 160kg.
3rd Place - SUI 1. Boat 180kg, crew 160kg.
4th Place - NED 007. Boat 187kg, crew 159kg.
5th Place - NED 1933. Boat 179kg, crew 161kg.
6th Place - NED 3. Boat 180kg, crew 155kg.
7th Place - AUS 888. Boat 187kg, crew 160kg.
8th Place - SWE 7. Boat 180kg, crew 154 kg.
9th Place - FRA 004. Boat 187kg, crew 158kg.
10th Place - USA 11. Boat 177kg, crew 154kg.

It should be evident that no top teams sailed light. In fact, you don't get any crew corrector weight until 13th (BEL 888, crew 149kg). The top USA team carrying crew weight was USA 90 (crew 142kg, 33rd Place). Only one team sailed with the small sail plan (USA 1238, crew 133kg, 45th Place, Silver Fleet).

As for conditions, we had mostly light to moderate breeze. We had one race of 19 knots sustained. We had two races at less than 8 knots sustained. We had a variety of sea states.

Bottom line for me - you can't sail light in this class.

I absolutely agree with John- being light is a disadvantage in this class, especially on long courses and reach legs. We sailed worlds at 142 kg and with big sails. While we did pretty well on the light first day, and held on to our spot in Gold fleet on the second day, racing in breeze in the Gold fleet was very difficult. I feel that we learned a lot about how to depower and put the bow down while in Long Beach, but still lacked upwind boatspeed.

After watching Robbie Daniels and Chris Prentice get third at a light air Canadian Nationals, I believe that in very light breeze (both hulls in the water), being heavy doesn't hurt.

Where being light does help is in marginal conditions where a light team can power up and fly a hull earlier than the heavier teams, but this is a pretty narrow band.

If we sail worlds next year, I definitely want to be heavier!

Thanks, John...but...
I appreciate the effort, but such a summary provides no real correlate with respect to overall performance and wind conditions. The data you provided is standard deviation of only +/- 2.7 Kg on an n=10 without any variable correlate of 'wind speed'.

To do the analysis properly, all races andall competitors along with wind conditions need to be evaluated relative to overall weight of all crews. In addition, we would bin each characteristic with overall skill, say intenational rankings vs the also-rans. Second, this would have to be compared with combined crew weights approaching 180 Kg (in extremum) to differentiate whether or not the boat can be sailed both heavy and competively in lighter conditions to evaluate the 'treatment effect' of added weight. Otherwise, your posted answer is only a 'fait accomplis', and unsubstantiated by fact from the standpoint of the original question.

Or you could sail a bit in the class at a variety of weights on several platforms and in a variety of conditions and venues with a variety of skippers and begin to draw some conclusions. That's more fun, IMO. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

Rex, You seem to have already decided that light teams have an unfair advantage. If you have the inclination, I'm happy to email you the regatta report from the measurer (Excel format) and the complete Sailwave file, from which you can glean the recorded wind speeds. However, it would be pretty easy to poke holes in any analysis - second-row starts, sea state, fouls and cluttered gates, older v newer sails... the variables are endless, really. I don't have a driving need to persuade you (or anyone else) to agree with my conclusion. The discussion actually makes for good bar-room debriefs.

ps - your edited post is much more conversational. Thanks for taking the edge off.

Unfortunately for me, even though I put on eight pounds for the ABYC event, I felt sluggy and slow - fitness was up, but I felt much more agile at a trimmer weight during a season on the H16. I can't get much bigger, and it isn't optimal to have 200+ pounds in the skipper position. I think I need to go back to driving. That's the cushy spot on the boat, anyway. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Well I actively try to take the edge off, but when challenged with a BS conclusion, I am paid handsomely and am given latitude to be far less diplomatic with numbers and conclusions with people holding advanced degrees in medicine and biology... I'd gladly take that data and work on it in my spare time for an unbiased opinion.

We are not very good, but at a combined weight of 400+ lbs (...to qualify that, my 19 yo nationally ranked swimming/triathlon champion son and I wear the exact ame sized clothes...), I do question whether heavy teams can be competitive in light air on the F18. Evidence of that remains anecdotal until tested. I wouldn't say it is a conclusion, but I have spoken with 4 experienced heavier teams that feel the rules are geared toward success of teams at the light end of the range. Knowing the relationship is a benefit to the competition of the class, as it will drive enforcement of such things as the oft ignored weigh-ins, and the minimum wind speed criteria for events.

Everybody likes an excuse for why they suck. Don't feel bad, I blame my suckage to a mild level of retardation.