hmm... a birther scenario...! Show me your birth certificate to sail!? That will make for interesting rule 69 protest hearings.
Isn't there enough crap to litigate in these cup competitions?
What value do you see with the nationality requirement?.... It's not like the public knows any of the sailors, designers, builders, much less their nationality. BMW proved that the team approach was decisive but; do you have any idea what the mix of nationalitites was? They certainly did not have any affirmative action members on the payroll... Why set the game up this way?
I see this as reality tv... the PR machine can build the owners and helms public persona for the fans and they are the only ones the public will know .... at least the owner will be a country man.... so that's 50%.
I would drop both equipment and personnel limitations and may the best team win!
may I just point out the
Australian
mogul skier left Canada at 15, sat out a year because he did not wish to be in the Canadian team training. Not because he wasn't good enough but did not like their system.
He now has one Olympic gold and a this Olympics silver and 3 world cups.. Is very involved in bringing new skiers of many countries through the ranks..
He also is well off enough not to need sponsorship. In fact gave the world cup winnings last year away to Haiti..
My opinion is that jumping citizenship would be a blatant attempt to subvert the rules, and I'd hope that a threat of a rule 69 action might discourage it.
Perhaps...but you are either a citizen of that country or you are not. There's really no other measure in between unless you want to drop back to
born in
. (wrote a song about it)
One third of the Alinghi crew where Swiss, Butterworth, Van Nieuwenhuizen and some other guys all have Swiss passports.
In F1 there is a budget cap to keep things fair, the only problem is how a defender can get some serious practice in without building two boats and competing in the challenger series?
Well, let me soften that a little. It would be much simpler to say that everybody on board must have been citizens since a day before the previous America's Cup was held. If a sailor possesses dual (or multiple) citizenship, he must have declared a primary affiliation for that same period. That wouldn't require any threats.
Frankly though, I don't want someone becoming a citizen of the USA (with the intent of switching allegiance again afterward) for the sole purpose of sailing in a regatta. If you don't intend to keep the vow given to gain citizenship, don't give it. Naturalization under false pretence shouldn't be just unsportsmanlike; it should be illegal.
More than enough, I agree. But a citizenship requirement wouldn't require legal action or even any investigation. Every crew member of an America's Cup team already has a publicized biography (or at least a long, long sailing resume). If a non-citizen is crewing, you don't have to file a lawsuit - a simple protest is sufficient.
The Americas Cup is set up as a nation vs. nation contest. I'd just like it to be an honest contest. Otherwise, you might as well take the country codes off the sails and change the regatta name to the
Corporation Cup
.
Let me preface this post by saying that I don't get broadcast television, so it is a moot point personally. I live in a place with no antenna reception, cable is unavailable, and I refuse to pay the price of satellite service.
Which feed did you watch? Did you count the number of ads on the Sailing Anarchy site? They even had a hover-ad covering the video. With view-on-demand and tivo, you can watch and play back at will. Oh, and where did you find play-back of the races? All I found were rebroadcasts on the live feeds and a pirated torrent file that I couldn't play. And besides, being on broadcast tv doesn't preclude internet coverage. It just widens up the potential audience.
I'm with you 100% on that one. Remember the past AC race when BMWO was leading Alinghi on the leg to the finish? Alinghi caught a puff and threatened to roll BMWO. They had the crew mic'd and broadcast the conversation on board. At one point I heard Peter Isler (who was tactician) say
We're two boatlenghts ahead - let's just gybe
. Well, the skipper decided to heat up instead. Alinghi rolled them and won the race.''
Nationality
essentially means that you pay taxes to an administration for the common benefit of a group, but more often just because they have the power to enforce payment.
IMHO nationality is an irrelevant concept for anything but administrative/tax issues. The world needs no passports, less
governments
and better management.
over
<img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" /> You're probably going to need your flame suit.
I thought they got rid of the Nationality requirement to try to help teams that could use help. Teams like China and Japan. I think some other countries could use the help too but I'm not naming names.
So it actually brought the cup to a more even playing field by getting rid of the Nationality requirement.
Personally I'm on the fence. I've seen how it plays out both ways. When you put the requirement in place it does make for a lot of fudging on the rules. I don't like to see that. So open at least you don't have all of the fudging like the Olympics. I also hate to see that our American team had to use a bunch of Aussie's. Nothing against Spithill or Coutts. Great guys. I'd just like to see Americans win it themselves.
I'm indifferent to all these concerns. I do think we should try to invite ourselves, cat sailors, to the party. That would give the cameras and commentators something to do during the waiting periods.
If the AC isn't an excuse for a regatta, what is?
Luiz, I'm with you there for the most part. Although I think nationality does matter in sport generally, I don't think it matters in the AC. Someone above said it's always been about nation vs nation, but that just isn't true, in the deed of gift the challenge is made between clubs. More akin to the world club challenge in football or rugby. You wouldn't expect Man U or AC Milan to be exclusively one nationality.
Anyway, if you tightened the nationality rules NZ would lose even more of its brightest and best overseas....
Corporation Cup
.
I think you may find it is a club vs club event.. not national
I don't think that's entirely true. Look at the past events. When there have been multiple clubs from the same country (USA) in the defender series, if a boat from a club other than the host club won the defender series, my understanding is that she would sail in the finals on behalf of the host club.
Not sure that it ever turned out this way, but that has been the main concern about if the cup could ever return to Newport. Common knowledge is that it would have to leave the country, and be won back by NYYC (or another club in the area).
Maybe that has more to do with the specific
agreed protocol
for each cup, which is what the monohull fans use to drive their goal of match racing with similar boats. (And for those of you who want to reiterate your idea of what the DoG says, it's almost irrelevant when an agreed protocol is used.)
Mike
I agree, if it's a club-v-club thing, then who cares who designs, constructs or staffs a team. Let the billionaires play...
If we're all wanting to get a shot at being the best sailor, why not consider the match racing circuit? I thought that's what it was for....
The way I see it, they want it to be match racing on equal-but-not-really-equal boats. They still want to be able to buy speed.
The thing is, they know it's good for publicity (and sponsor money) to have as many teams as possible, and for the racing to be close. The last cup on monohulls was considered by many to be the best ever because of how close the finishes were.
I didn't say it made sense...
Mike
I think we might be missing the point here :
The modern AC has nothing to do with sailing.
I recently found reference to EB having been offered 50billion Euros for the match that just happened in Valencia, with a further 100billion if he defends it and re-nominates Valencia as host venue.
Yet he fought so hard to have it in RAK, so who knows how much they offered him.
The same article claimed that Valencia has offered LE the remaining budget of 100billion Euros to host it there - which is why he said in his interview
It`s a great place for sailing: (7knots and 2 deg C, I could find better places..), and is considering it as an option. He will choose the venue that pays the most. Reference to
having enough space for the teams bases" is an excuse, 100billion Euros can buy a lot of space.
I`ll say it again - The AC has nothing to do with sailing, and everything to do with how to become the Defender, because countries will pay a lot of money to host a high-profile event, and the DoG says the Defender chooses the venue, so there is a lot of power there.
My take on how stupid Alinghi was to lose the cup : They fought hard for a Northern Hemisphere venue in winter, which is clear in the DoG it should be a Southern Hemisphere event.
Had they selected Cape Town or Australia in February, all they needed to do to win the cup was to arrive in an Orma 60 and sail in the predominant summer conditions these places have, which is seldom under 20-25knots with 3,5m swell.(When windguru forecasts 17knots for Cape Town, it averages 17, ie 12 gusting 23) My guess is that it would then be BOR who would request wind limits, and not get them, since both teams should bring seaworthy yachts to a race sailed on the sea.
The modern AC has nothing to do with sailing.
I recently found reference to EB having been offered 50billion Euros for the match that just happened in Valencia, with a further 100billion if he defends it and re-nominates Valencia as host venue.
Yet he fought so hard to have it in RAK, so who knows how much they offered him.
The same article claimed that Valencia has offered LE the remaining budget of 100billion Euros to host it there - which is why he said in his interview
It`s a great place for sailing: (7knots and 2 deg C, I could find better places..), and is considering it as an option. He will choose the venue that pays the most. Reference to
having enough space for the teams bases" is an excuse, 100billion Euros can buy a lot of space.
I`ll say it again - The AC has nothing to do with sailing, and everything to do with how to become the Defender, because countries will pay a lot of money to host a high-profile event, and the DoG says the Defender chooses the venue, so there is a lot of power there.
My take on how stupid Alinghi was to lose the cup : They fought hard for a Northern Hemisphere venue in winter, which is clear in the DoG it should be a Southern Hemisphere event.
Had they selected Cape Town or Australia in February, all they needed to do to win the cup was to arrive in an Orma 60 and sail in the predominant summer conditions these places have, which is seldom under 20-25knots with 3,5m swell.(When windguru forecasts 17knots for Cape Town, it averages 17, ie 12 gusting 23) My guess is that it would then be BOR who would request wind limits, and not get them, since both teams should bring seaworthy yachts to a race sailed on the sea.
Steve, I like the second bit of your post, I especially like using something like an ORMA 60, they could easily match race, just check out the youtube vids of the ORMA series. They even feature on the AC computer game (which is really good!)
The first part of your post however is grade A bulls**t, 100 billion euro amounts to 10% of Spain's GDP, i.e. five times more than the size of their agriculture budget or their spend on defence. There is no way Valencia are going to come up with that kind of money, especially now that Spain is crippled by debt. 100 million, though, in case you mistyped, I could believe.
100 million, though, in case you mistyped, I could believe.
You could be right, might have been million, not billion.
My point is still that money drives it - the boats and the races were just a way to get at controlling the money. Pity I can`t find that article again, must make a note to remember on which websites I read stuff.
My reference to the Orma 60 was just that, if Alinghi wanted to win the event, they could just have chosen a high wind venue and a boat that is moded to suit, in the southern hemisphere which is deed compliant, as they knew what BOR was bringing to the match, which is NOT a heavy air and big seastate boat. They had the advantage of being able to choose a venue after knowing what BOR looked like, surely they could see it would not cope with high winds? Instead they designed a boat that was even worse in that regard, and then squabbled their venue-choosing rights away. I really don`t get their thinking.
As an aside, could someone explain WHY Valencia was more deed-compliant than RAK ? I`m confused on this one. As far as I can read into the DoG (without all the amendments), the only stipulation is that it be a Southern Hemisphere event at the time of year it was held. I don`t get where, in the DoG, the challenger has the right to contest where the venue is held, assuming there is no mutual consent in these decisions.
Mitch Booth makes the case for multi`s in future AC :
http:/
okay, so if you want nation / club participation, you'd probably want an affordable (less than $5M) boat that doesn't take too many crew (less than 8 per boat) so you don't have to fork over big money to house/feed/train. If the price is right, you can have multiple entries from a nation/club.
You'd also want some sort of match series or circuit that would draw the clubs/nations in. Maybe like the LV series, but different venues over the course of a year or two (so the boats/teams would have to handle a wide variety of conditions), with the final year being a points/elimination finale leading up to the AC match. The different venues would draw spectators & money to the series and locations, improving relations....
If you want thrills & chills you need boats that can move and cross, bump & run, and can be fixed quickly
If you want spectators, you need fast boats that can work on small courses where viewers can get up close.
Sounds like some variant of the VX 40s to me, doesn't it?
You'd also want some sort of match series or circuit that would draw the clubs/nations in. Maybe like the LV series, but different venues over the course of a year or two (so the boats/teams would have to handle a wide variety of conditions), with the final year being a points/elimination finale leading up to the AC match. The different venues would draw spectators & money to the series and locations, improving relations....
If you want thrills & chills you need boats that can move and cross, bump & run, and can be fixed quickly
If you want spectators, you need fast boats that can work on small courses where viewers can get up close.
Sounds like some variant of the VX 40s to me, doesn't it?
I proposed exactly that some time ago....
VX40's
We can have in a event organised in a year and welcome easily 10 AC teams.
These boats have been tested and proven by know and will blow the doors off the AC5's mono's for a fraction of the cost.
Then later open de boxrule a little and allow for more development.
Wouter
So, basically, you're telling me I'm living in the past ... <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> Oh, your time zone is ahead of mine, so you're really just living in the future....
So, basically, you're telling me I'm living in the past ... <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> Oh, your time zone is ahead of mine, so you're really just living in the future....
Always looking forward.... <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
For me both the VX40 or another AC5 type design would be boring. The AC should be at the cutting edge, there's not many events in sailing that are (design wise). That Mitch Booth interview kinda implied he favoured a catamaran box rule. I personally would like to see a box rule that allowed cats, tris, foilers, whatever, but with a greater range of allowable sea and wind states. If costs were an issue, just introduce a few restrictions, almost like a giant NZMYC Open 8.5 Rule.
Using an existing class for the AC would reduce it as a spectacle.
Still, we all know it's going to raced in monohulls though don't we? Lets not kid ourselves.