Anti-Tiger Smack

Manufacturer smack (spin) is worse than sailor smack!

In a nutshell, no the Capricorn is not that much better. They are all platforms that you can win on.

Shiny-itus

is abundant in this fleet.

Tiger is old and has had those years to optimise tuning. Capricorn is new and tuning is still to be sorted to some extent. If Capricorn is not faster... why design new boats?

so we can buy the old boats nacracrobies for 10cents on the dollar!

I agree, but the Capricorn has been around for long enough now that it shouldn't be an issue.

...Why design New boats....

how long after the Tiger did the Nacra F18 come out?

Unfortunately we don't have any Caps in NZ yet but my understanding from contacts in Aus is that the Capricorn probably has an advantage in light winds (as seen in this year's Texel and worlds results) but that it suffers in choppy conditions.

As Jake said, all the platforms are very close. Each will have its day depending on conditions and who is steering. For those looking for a competitive boat at the right price get a second hand Nacra F18 (old version) and put an Infusion wing mast on it. Do that and I don't believe you'll see a noticeable difference between the old and new Nacras around the course.

Sure and from what I have read about Infusions latest the Cap might be old before its time also. A good skip and crew on a slower boat will always beat a lesser crew on a better boat.... But two equally excellent teams on boats which are not equal means..... Two years from now we will know..

yummmmmmm ten cents on the dollar....

If you qoute someone please use the whole thing. Not just what you want people to read. This was not Anti-Tiger Smack!!!!

This is great news....congrats to all....I think we are about to explode with the Capricorn in the US and we are very excited about being on board. Robbie Daniel, who is a Tornado sailor, like Sachs, Landenberger and Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby, said that the Capricorn was the first boat that he has sailed other than the Tornado that gives you the sportcar feel of the Tornado. By the looks of things, many other Olympic sailors are looking at the F18 Capricorn to do their cross training.

Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby have been on fire in every race they have sailed this year. It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds. I believe this is one of the first times they have been beat by the Sach brothers after racing for years against them in the Tornado class. Although the Sachs are great sailors in their own right, it is obvious to see that the boat did them well!

Congrats to everyone. Glad to be on board the Capricorn express. We look forward to distributing all the AHPC in the US and we are finding the Capricorn buzz growing here almost as fast as in Europe.

As a matter of interest do you have a financial gain to be made out of people seeing the Capricorn as a better boat than the Tiger?

Nice marketing. Well, we are use to people picking at Hobie to try and scratch out their

share

of sales. Nothing new.

Now the latest:

Dominating most all events in the Tornado Class, Darren Bundock and Glenn Ashby...

Seems their choice of boat at the recent Olympic Test Regatta in China, once again, played a factor in their recent results? They placed 6th.

Oh yeah, they ALL sailed Tornados over there.

http://www.sailing2008.org/SpecailTopic/...s/r-tornado.htm

Matt,
I hear what you are saying, however China was a very bizare set of racing circumstances. Alot of Favorites got their buts kicked.
I think you can argue that Bundy and Gashby are the most acomplished pairs in multihull sailing today. Glen's win this year in the A cat worlds was as dominating as is possible.

As to whether the Hobie tiger is still competitive in F-18 racing, I think is is way to early to tell. If the factory is unwilling to change the hull shape, I think eventualy it will be less competitive. That is the inherent risk in promoting a Tiger One Design that does double duty as a F-18 boat. However when you look at the results since F-18 racing started the tiger has dominated, both in market share, wins, and in top 10 finishes at the worlds. It seems you have a pretty good gig going so far.

I do admit that Jill spun it in her favor.

Sail Fast,
Eric

Sorry guys, I am missing something here.
What is the inference of this post about Ashby and co and their Tornado?
Hobie have taken weeks to answer this so it must be a good argument for their side of thought.
While I know these guys are great sailors, they would have to be truely stunning to sail so many other boats and then get up to top five in Olympic contention surely?

What Matt probably hints at is that the the Tornado is one-design, and almost single manufacturer one design at that. This proves that even the best sailors dont win all the time, so the Tiger is just as fast as the Capricorns, Infusions, Mattiasports, Cirriuses etc. Problem is that Bundy and Ashby is at their best in a breeze, and the conditions in China which Matt refers to was mostly low to no wind conditions. In low wind conditions Roman Hagara and Hans P is the Tornado team to watch.

Please nobody get their noses out of joint but as I look at it the only real cat catagory is Tornado. That is the World measure of off the beach cat sailing.
I understand that sailors of other cats can and must be truely excellent but what I said was that I simply would not expect any sailor, no matter how good to measure up in the top of the World basis without devoting every day to the winning of it.
The idea that that the Tiger has delivered an odd result in the hads of Ashby and his partner sounds like grabbing at straws. It seems that that style of boat is their bread and butter.

Warbird,
I think if you look at the classes that Glen Ashby sails in you will find that the A class is his primary boat. Bundock has been at the top of the Tornado game for many years. I think the A class and the tornado are the most competitive single and double handed cats in the world. These two dominate these classes.
Eric

Bundy and Asbhy has done very well in the F-18s (on a Tiger) also. Did they not win the worlds in 2004?

You are very right. I did not take the A into account. I was thinking more of the two handed change to Tornado from 18s.
And I don't think anyone is questioning the class of these people.
As I see it this thread is about the Tiger and its viablity against latest boat styles. I questioned the thin argument a Hobie rep had to suggsest they are winners still.
Having noted the rethoric the boat companies all use in relations to claims about their boats I don't feel confident in any argument anyone but unaffiliated boat sailors would put forward.

Plus 2003 and 2005

Just checked, and Bundy/Ashby did win the 2005 event. But 2003 was the Boulogne brothers. No matter, Bundy/Ashby are one of the very best teams on this planet anyway. Question is wether the Tiger platform has seen the end of its winning streak becouse the Capricorns, Infusions, Blades, Mattiasport and the other new ones are faster platforms. Or if they are still equal (why buy new boats if they are).

The Tacticat game is a good example that sailing skills and a little luck go a long way.
The Capricorn is IMHO the fastest platform, followed closely by the Tiger and Infusion by lower margins (Judging from the various results).

What you're seeing now is that Hobie doesn't change its platform but instead invests more in sail-development and fine-tuning (Either through the factory or the sailing community).
IMHO the problem with formula sailing is that if you want to stay competitive as a non-pro sailor you are forced to buy a new boat every year, or with every iteration of new material. Something that people without sponsors will not be able to afford. Which is probably the same reason why you see so little A-cats (2nd hand A2=€18K!).

I dont think you need a new platform every year to stay competitive in the F-18 circus. The Tiger platform has not changed that much over the years, has it? (new daggers, isn't that all?)

Boats like new A-cats are very expensive. Not to speak about a new Tornado, but the competitive life is quite long so you get to write it down over many years. If you can not afford to buy a boat, build it yourself <img src=

alt=

/> (but I agree, sailing is an expensive sport where you need lots of equipment. Beachcats are probably worse than other small dinghys)

I stand corrected, thanks Rolf.

As long as Bundy/Gashby are on a Tiger, I believe they will still dominate. Just look at all the other F18 results recently. The boys just had a bad one (If you can call 2nd bad)

Truth is guys, there is next to zero speed difference between the Tigers, Nacra (05) and Capricorns. I have not raced against any other makes.

Boat choice should more importantly come down to personal taste..... Where you loyalties lie, what looks more appealing to you, what feels better, cost or availability.

I think the Formula concept is great and can not believe the level of 'afordable'competition. I also believe whilst some may moan about the weight, it is this that makes the competition so close.

Disagree..... Many a sailor continue to perform on boats 3 or so years old. If you want to stay up towards the pointy end of the fleet, then train, train, train.... And you will have to stay up to date with sail cuts and replace your sails regularly as with any class.

And the A Class..... In Oz, along with the F18 and H16, are numericly the most popular active racing cats. I believe this trend is simular in many parts of the US. Europe ???

You're right, the Tiger platform only undergoes significant changes every other
year or so (tramp, daggers, mast, boom).

But reality is, if you want to stay competitive you need a new set of sails
every year (Main, jib, spi. Both due to wear and new cuts).
The price difference between buying a new set of sails (+/-€3K) or trading-in
for a new boat becomes so small that most people buy a new boat instead.

Tony, I dont know if changes to the tramp and boom is significant. Mast and daggers might be important. Has the extras really changed that often?

Good sails is a must in any class you want to compete, and do well in. Spis need to be changed often if you want to compete at the top level, jibs and mains less frequent. That is just the way it is. After some years the cuts stabilize, and you dont need to buy new sails due to advances in technology (whatever the sailmakers say).
Or you can start your own sail development program, learn a lot about sails and become a better sailor (time would be better spent on the water tough, if you have the opportunity).. Money to save that way, but you will need to work hard to match what the pros come up with. Good thing is that all they do are visible..

Here is a pic of our new (homemade) spi. We are having lots of fun working on how to get the best out of it.

Just to clarify,

The Tiger mast extrusion has not changed. Only the hardware has (most significantly the spreaders).

The Tiger daggerboards have not changed, either. Carbon boards are allowed, but they are the same planform and cross section as the fiberglass boards.

The IHCA Rules Committee is considering a change to the Tiger rudders, but that is still in the planning stages.

Matt,

Did the daggerboard location in the hull change? I keep hearing rumours that it did but never anything definite.

The dagger board location has not changed.

One or the top sailors on the Hobie (atchu!!!MB) mentioned that he has been working with the factory to keep the Tiger up to snuff competitively. One of the main things that he thinks will work are newer rudders. Something akin to the Marstrom Tornado Rudders. I saw a Tiger in France with this set up and asked the skipper about the caracteristics. He said that it drives like a sports car with that rudder setup. He thought it drove like a truck before.

If you are looking for reasons to buy a new boat there are plenty, but I do not think that many of the formula 18 designs today are

off the pace

. The Tiger is still sailing very well against the others. I think the best reason to get a new boat is to avoid putting too much into your present boat if there is trade in value. As mentioned before you can almost upgrade to a new boat rather that outfit your boat with new sails. This also has the advantage of getting another sailor into the class, who would otherwise not afford a new boat.

Each boat may have a specific arena that it will excel in. I think that getting a nice

overall

boat and sailing it well can get you the consistant results you should be looking for. If you are only sailing in one place then you can buy a specific boat that covers those conditions. Or if there are no other types of boats you can sail what everyone else sails.

As for the price of sailing in this class...you would only complain if you have not looked at what it costs to sail in some other classes. A brand new

high performance

boat in the price range of $15,000 to $18,000 is not too bad. We are running the I-14 Worlds out of our Yacht Club next week. I have asked them about what a boat runs and it is expensive, about twice what our boats cost to setup competitively. Along with all the rigging that goes on with that boat, I will take the Formula 18...but I would love to get on one of those for a day.

Later,
Dan

[color:

blue

]
[color:

red

] Since I have been accused of some kind of sailing CRIME....or at least that is how I feel, I thought I owed it to all my fans and non fans to speak up for my self.

My first comment is that anyone who was offended by this PARTIAL QUOTE needs to find a Hobby (and this is not HOBIE SMACK....so don't even try to go there). My letter was sent as a congradulatory note to the Capricorn Sailors at the worlds. I never expected it to be posted anywhere nor was it meant to be anything except a notice of job well done to the Capricorn Sailors. I personally think it is great to have multiple manufacurers in a class because it keeps them all on their toes and in the end, the sailors win! For a long time many manufacturers have paid good money to have good sailors sail their boats....THIS HAS AND STILL SELLS BOATS FOR THEM....not all manufacturers can afford to do that...It is somewhat easy for a good sailor to make a boat look good. This is not a bad thing...but at the Worlds, I do not BELIEVE there were any paid sailors on Capricorns....this was another reason that congradulations were in order because these guys are darned good. Every manufacturer or dealer likes to see their boat doing well and should be happy when it happens as there is only one direction to move once you have reached the top....and unless you work hard on it..it is only a matter of time before you are no longer at the top and fighting your way back to get there. I think we all just need to shut up and sail because this week it may be Capricorn on top, next week may be Infusions turn and I am sure Hobie, who has had many turns in the past will be there again.

For the person who started this SMACK thing...SHAME ON YOU...and shame on you for not haveing the nads to put the whole letter up there and letting people get riled up over nothing. And for anyone who bit....I feel for you if you can let something like that get to you. I feel horrible that Bundy, who is a beloved friend of mine, got any flack from anyone at all while he was at the Pre Olympics....SHAME ON YOU IF YOU BOTHERED HIM WITH THIS!

I think all the factories need to wake up...they all need to support the sport as will will happen at the North American F18 Championships

Hobie has tried and will most likely continue trying to be an entity by them selves. The nightmare of pulling out of the Tiger Nationals in San Fransico, has giving all cats a bad name. They need to promote the F18 thing and racing in general with all sailors. Keeping sailors from racing at a regatta because they do not have a particular boat hurts all sailors as well as the orgaizers. We all have a pretty big sand box and if we play together, it will be a win win situation for the sailors...isn't that what it is SUPPOSE to be about.

I am truely excited about Capricorn in the US and thrilled with the the quality of the boat we see coming over to the US. Is the Capricorn better than its compitition?....I think so and I hope to partisipate in keeping it that way...but again this is only a positive thing for the sailors as it is an incentive for the others to keep up as it will be for Capricorn if they fall behind in quality ...I can only hope that we can once again see the POSITIVE interest in sailing that I saw many years ago when I became involved in sailing...ON A HOBIE 16 by the way!

I AM A STRONG BELIEVER THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND CAUSE TROUBLE YOU SHOULD SIGN YOUR NAME...I am Jill Nickerson....AND this is MY OPINION on the matter. <img src=

alt=

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