Jill,
Could you post your entire
...notice of job well done to the Capricorn Sailors.
?
Thanks.
ah... just read the thread from the top... someone posted it already.
Must not be enough racing going on though.... when your standard
atta boy.. way to go
email to cap owners only gets spun up as marketing tactics and hobie smack.
Pretty good spin cycle....
But ... How come nobody wants to deal with the pink elephant in the room?
Can the F18 sailors in North America support three national championships (F18, Nacra F18 Hobie F18)?
So for 2006 ... 5 F18's at the Nacra Class nationals, 0 boats at the Hobie Class nationls.... (Not to mention a FUBAR with St Francis YC)
Do they run the same game plan next year? (who is they... anyway?)
Do you think F18 sailors might have a public dialog and try to reach a consensus... or will they just trust that god will provide more venues like St Francis or Racine YCs that they may screw over at the last minute by not showing up?
Based on this year's track record... WHY WOULD ANY CLUB ASSIST YOU in the future?
Good Luck... But It's hard to believe that this is a succesful strategy for attracting new racers to the class either! (The high performance dinghy sailors probobly aren't impressed by this sorry track record).
Mark
Call it a lemon, call it an orange. We're close to having 50 boats at the F18 North American and no matter how you cut it, peel it, or slice it, that's sweet. I'm about sick of this gloom and doom stuff. Those that continue to fight the major current will continue to fight the current - eventually they'll learn that past a certain point it's harder and even futile paddling against it. The momentum is pretty much undeniable at this point....but I never did notice the elephant in this room.
Having multiple manufacturers is great for the class...having one manufacturer with a clear advantage is not good for the class (which, BTW, isn't even close to happening yet). People like the ability of being able to choose their brand. People serious about their sport have shiny-itus and buy new boats - having slight (read: perceived) advances in technology gets these people to continue to upgrade (myself included). Used boats go back into the market ... it's a good cycle and a self propelling one. A huge leap forward in technology would really hurt the class but the rules are in place (and would/have quickly gone into place) to protect against that.
Success is entirely dependant upon how you spend time between failures.
I have a hit list of fortune cookies...I'll keep 'em coming.
This year's Alter Cup winner is a Capricorn distributer.
Another former Alter Cup winner who currently sails a Tiger told me he thinks the Infusion will be the new boat to beat.
Hull shape made a small but significant difference in the A-cat world, with the Flyer and A-2. To maintain their market lead, Hobie must continue to make small but significant improvements as long as the F18 platform evolves.
If Hobie were to upgrade the hulls without changing the rest of the platform, it would not obsolete the existing tiger fleet more than earlier upgrades did. Upgrading the hulls and calling it a Tiger would be perfectly reasonable, IMHO, as it's just another minor improvement. The only downside is that this minor upgrade is prohibitively expensive, which will alienate some in the short term.
The new bow-piercing designs should help most in short chop, where they can penetrate every second wave, stabilizing the rig aloft compared to the Tiger, giving the new hulls an significant advantage in hobby-horse conditions. The new hulls also have less windage, and the Capricorn is said to plane downwind. Downwind in really rough stuff, I have to wonder if the new hulls are a benefit or a liability compared to the Tiger.
I recently overheard some top SoCal Tiger sailors wondering out loud if buying a new Tiger now would be a wise investment. Well, of course they should wonder until it becomes clear if Hobie will evolve the platform aggressively enough to stay competitive. Hobie must keep these frequent-buyers happy, and I think nothing would reassure them more than a new hull shape.
Of course, I have to agree with MB about the Hobie Rudders: They stink. Marstroms (and AHPCs) have factory set rake for a light helm and no possibility of mis-drilling. The Marstroms, I believe, also have laminar flow sections for less drag when not maneuvering. They are also feather light compared to Hobie's. They also have simple reliable lockdown mechanisms that are more reliable and easier to operate. The only advantage the Hobies have are that they are cheap and sturdy, which makes them good for the vacation rental fleets.
Flying fifteen is what to look at here to see the result.
Classic/silver and late shapes make three fleets. The silver fleet ends up worth less than the classics and have to be given away as a competitive boat.
I've been called many names over the past years for given you all the glimps of the future. So there is nothing you can do anymore that will make me think twice about repeating this message>
The F18 branch will survive and thrive.
All the F18 related One-design spin-off and directly competing classen will decrease, die and vanish all together. F18 One-design races exist in the imagination only as the big manufacturers WILL follow the developments in the F18 class and hence the OD class is not truly a OD class, not even by a long shot.
Regard the F18 class as the Borg from startrek.
Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated
Not there is anything wrong with that. We wanted big fleets of comparable boats right ?
Wouter
The Tiger design is managed by a group that is intent on it being a competitive F18. Hobie USA doesn't have a great deal of control over it's configuration - IMHO, while I don't agree with the logic, they've done a pretty decent job in configuration control to maintain some fashion of Hobie One Design racing with the Tiger. My point is, the priority of the Tiger design is for F18 racing so the only reason I would suspect you haven't seen any major changes is that they continue to be comfortable with the performance of the boat.
Just thought I would add a little to this conversation as it is predominately about me.
Firstly congratulations to Helge and Christian Sach they sailed a faultless and very impressive regatta at the F18 Worlds and are very deserving champions.
Glenn and I lost this years F18 Worlds in the qualifying series. Actually race 6, we went the wrong way on the first upwind. We went right and the breeze came in from the left..We got it wrong! We were going the wrong way fast and finished 18th. Game over. Unfortunately for us it was still in the qualifying split fleet series and our main competition (Sach's, Mourniac, Echavarri) were not in this race and did not also suffer a high score as they were in the next heat and the breeze had settled in by the time they raced.
This left only 3 races in the final series to pull back 18 points. Big job. We went for it. We had 3 perfect risky pin end starts under black flag and finished 3,3,1. Sachs were the only ones that did not crack under the pressure and held on. That’s why they are champions.
Glenn and I will be sailing a standard Tiger rigged the same as we had for 2004, 2005 and 2006 at the 2007 F18 Worlds as we want to win.
Bundy
The organgrinder has spoken! <img src=
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Thanks for writing.
I am interested to know if you are paid some sort of sponsorship or fee for being loyal to Hobie by Hobie? Do you pay for the boat? Does this have any affect on your choices of ride?
Also, is there a learning curve for you in changing platforms that would slow a coice to change?
Oh FFS! Read what he says. According to the man himself, he made a tactical error at a crucial time and paid dearly. The champions got it right and congratuations to them. His choice of boat was of little or no consequence in this situation and makes the origional quote a little silly.
Tiger Mike
MEEEOoooow
Tiger
!, I took in what the guy said. I was asking a question to clarify what the scene is regarding sponsorhip and money and if these things help define rides for the guns of the sport. He is as close to a professional as there is and it's not a crazy question. Your not his Mommy and he can tell me to mind my own buisiness because he is a grown up. Valium's in the top draw.
I thought it was a valid question - not likely one to get a reply, but a valid question none-the-less.
I am interested to know if you are paid some sort of sponsorship or fee for being loyal to Hobie by Hobie? Do you pay for the boat? Does this have any affect on your choices of ride?
Also, is there a learning curve for you in changing platforms that would slow a coice to change?
Disrespectful
I don't think its disrespectful at all,
Plus, theres no written rule that we all have to sit around in a big circle, hold hands, and sing kumbaya together.
It is a bit personal though, a bit like asking
how is your wife in the sack
?, or
how much do you REALLY earn
?, or
how big ARE your 'assets'
?
Some would answer boastingly, but most would consider the questions
inappropriate
and treat them accordingly, I would, but that's just me.
From the Hobie Division 3 (Northern California) chairperson's report the the NA Hobie annual meeting.
On the championship front, two classes, the Tigers and 17s, were offered North American events in the Division. The combined event was bid, in its entirety, by the Saint Francis Yacht Club with the endorsement of Division 3’s Fleet 240. In the end, it was only the 17 fleet that chose to attend the event. It is regrettable that the Tiger class allowed this truly unique opportunity to pass. I am pleased to report that the 15 boats in the 17 class represented the Hobie class extraordinarily well and these gentlemen should be thoroughly commended. The 17 class enjoyed the truly world-class regatta management of the StFYC’s professional regatta staff and the undeniably gracious hospitality of the club. It was a stellar event! It’s a pretty nice place. It has some nice views as well.
I understand that there will be a full report on the Tiger class NA issue by the regatta committee; I hope to add some comment to that report before it is presented. This is the second year in a row that we have not had a NAs for this class which is very much a shame. This was indeed a world-class opportunity well and truly blown! With an organization such as the StFYC, very much at the progressive fore-front of our sport, the impact of this non-event could well extend beyond the local area and region. I was at the event every day, on the committee boat for most of the time, and I would like to reiterate that the Hobie 17 class saved a lot of face for the Hobie class.
From the Race Director's report to the annual meeting.
TIGER
Tiger North AmericansThis event scheduled for July at the St Francis Yacht Club in San Francisco was canceled due to a lack of entries.
A bit of history regarding the event. it was conceived by John Craig, the Race Director of the St Francis Yacht Club. He contacted us last year with an inquiry as to hosting the event. We met John at the Tiger Worlds in Santa Barbara, and went over all of the details. He was given a bid package. During the world event, both Lori and PU had chats with at least a dozen of the US Tiger sailors. All showed enthusiasm for the event. There were no negatives voiced. Lori also had chats with the Factory Tiger team.
Events followed which we will transmit to all assembled during the AGM.
HOBIE 17.
One week prior to the event, we only had 9 registered boats. We made a few calls, as did some of the competitors and that figure went up to 14 boats a few days prior to the event.
PU had several discussions with John Criag regarding the situation and its effect on the event budget. The effect was that the club would go into serious debt unless we made some cuts.
We did make cuts that we felt would not effect the competiton, but were still well in the red. At this point PU recommended he not attend the event, thereby saving lodging and transportation cost for the RO. Instead John who is qualified, would be the RO.
The final registration figures were 15 boats.
Bundy IS a professional sailor and he DOES have a professional relationship with Hobie Cat.
The Tiger is by no means non-competitive, however Bundy / Gashby certainly get the most out of it as they do with any boat they sail. Hard to expect them to race the perfect regatta every time. If it was not for them dominating every regatta leading up to it, then expectations would not be so high...... 2nd is a VERY CREDITABLE effort.
1. I am a professional sailor. No one is hiding that. Thats why its called the Nissan Hobie Cat PRO Team.
2. 18 of the top 22 at the f18 worlds are also professional or beniting in someway.
3. I have been approached by the majority of manufactures for similar benifits.
4. I grew up sailing Hobie Cats (H14, H16, TheMightyHobie18) before I turned professional. '89 H14 worlds was my first international regatta.
5. Helge Sach was the first professional small cat sailor I can think of.
6. I dont think Hobie need to change.
7. Sailing is still my sport and passion just like you guys.
Anymore questions I will have to start charging as I am a
professional
..Joking. Most of you guys are probably at work and getting paid while you write this stuff. Are you professional forumers? I enjoy reading your forum when I am at the airport, great goss.
Cheers
Bundy
Many thanks for the reply. I just wish I was in your shoes as far as talent and job are concerned. I meant no disrespect but have an open interest in how these things work. If I was in your place I would be working it for all it was worth while remaining competitive and enjoying myself because that is life.
OK OK OK...NOW you're getting personal. <img src=
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I am not professional and never have been, in fact I paid good money to have the pleasure!! of sailing the Tiger and this out of date boat got me into 3rd place over all going into the last race of the 06 F18 Worlds. I was at the first f18 worlds and was involved in the development of the first prototype Capricorn from AHPC, I do believe that it has a slight advantage in some conditions but the Tiger still has its day, I cannot remember one race that I had a Capricorn off the start come over the top of me, in fact if it was in any way, I would say that I had a boat speed advantage, I think you guys need to forget about the boat speed and direct your efforts to practising.
In reference to the rudders there is nothing wrong with the profile of the Tiger's you do get a little bit of flex from the white ones but the carbon rudders even though it's only an outside layer work equally as good as a Capricorns the only reason the Capricorn gives you the impression that it is better is in the hull design, that it sits on top of the water and not in it. The talk about wave piercing is all sales talk, if you analyse video footage of the two boats there is less pitch in the Tiger then the Capricorn this is caused by added volume in the bow and the stern, which cause's it to sail up and over waves rather than through them (wave piercing?). Quality the Tiger does have some faults, but don't kid yourself the Capricorn is no Mercedes-Benz even though you're properly paid a similar price, with a limited amount of sails you will find compression marks in the deck, and the anodising scratches easy and you will find the rudder assembly has its faults, all in all they are very similar in quality. The Tiger mast has been changed to a lighter section but this has been around for awhile, the Capricorn's mast varies from batch to batch and even Mr Goodall complained that he had a soft mast section at the 04 Worlds and there were complaints at the 06 worlds. So if you're thinking about buying a new boat study the results over a number regattas and you will see that you have many options, your choice should be made without the influence of Salesman.
If the Tiger can make me look good it's not off the pace! <img src=
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Mark Laruffa
WHAT THE????????
This is just a post to the general public and not intended as a direct reply to mr. Bundock.
I in fact am on the side of the people who say that any design is good enough to win a championship on; it is the training, talent and shear determination that gets you there. Still, I can't help to notice a glaring disconnect over the last couple of years.
I remember the Tiger from 1995, it had a squaretop (small) mainsail and a jib sail that was sheeted of a wire running across the trampoline. The spinnaker looked like a balloon and was launched from a bag on the trampoline. The downhaul was 1:8 and the downhaul line was a thick as my thumb. The mast rotation was placed on the boom and the boom was a large rectangular section with an internal car. Just to name a few points, there are more.
Then, quite quickly we say the squaretop being replaced by a pin head mainsail, a mylar version. The jib sheeting was moved to the mainbeam and the spinnaker sail changed slowly into a more flat shape with broader shoulders.
Only 1 or 2 years later again, the trampoline setup was changed and the squaretop sail was reintroduced which hobie called the ST mainsail. The first pentex sails were introduced. The first snuffers began to be introduced and the boom was replaced by a much lighter round tube without a clew car. The Tiger hulls received a stiffening subdeck in the bows.
A little later again the selftacker was introduced and the new STX mainsail which has a significantly larger head and was exclusively pentex based. The spinnaker went through another shape change making them actually quite good of the shelve (which before that time was not always the case). The rig was properly sorted and rumour has it that is was named the Booth set of sails. I don't know to what extend that rumour reflects reality. On the beach it was however called that for a while.
But we are not done yet, not too long ago much stiffer carbon daggerboards and rudder boards were introduced and mast rotation was moved down to the trampoline and the downhaul system became a cascading 12:1 system with specialized flexible high tensile lines to reduce friction. I just read the post by mark laruffa and he states that the mast itself was replaced by a slightly softer one in the past. If this is true then that is a significant change as well.
What can we expect in the future. First of all the new fully battened jib. Very quickly the Tiger is the last F18 in the fleet to have an old style pear shaped mast. Either all the others with elliptical masts are wrong or Hobie will join this group in the future. This of course means another mast change. And we can go on .... but I think this part of my argument is pretty clear.
So what is my point exactly ?
Well during these 10 years I have heard scores of Hobie sailors say that they thought that the Tiger was good enough as it was and never needed to change.
Personally I would like to see one of those take out a 1995 vintage Tiger to a championship and proof all of us who made changes wrong.
Now I'm sure mr Bundock and mr. Ashby will come a very long way on such a boat precisely because they are very talented and have put in enormous amounts of time training and honing their skills. But I seriously doubt they would come out on top sailing this 1995 vintage boat. When given a choice I'm sure they will opt to use the 2005 (or 2006) version.
Give it another 10 years (or even less) and the same can be said of the 2005 version. Ergo the Tiger design NEEDS to change and WILL change in the coming years. It is inevitable.
Wouter
Well that took a lot of work to say nothing!!! we all know about the changes on the Tiger. Hobie has handled the arms race pretty good it still the closest thing you'll get to one class racing, I'd just purchased another second-hand Tiger which is almost 3 years old with the view that I can compete in the next Hobie Worlds and be competitive next couple f18 championships, and we live in the land of the Capricorn. For a boat that you keep trying to make look like its a had been, has forced the APHC to modify the Capricorn with two versions of a cunningham, two locations of stay and spreader fastenings, two types of front and rear beams, three variations to hulls at least six variations of mains, talk of moving the centre board's and changing rudders, all this just to keep upto an outdated boat, why don't you just leave it alone and go sailing.
Regards Mark
Ps; you must have too much time on your hands a hate to think what's going to happen when winter finally hits Europe
Did no one notice the Attachment??? WHAT THE!!!! <img src=
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Yes, I noticed and wondered what a spaceship from the 80's
shoot em up
computer game 'Elite' was doing here <img src=
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The Tiger is pretty dead as topic for this thread, so I might as well ask. What is it? The next Predator?
Oh, a last thing. As a down under citizen, you are not allowed to make jokes about wintertime. It's pretty awful and we northeners are allowed some slack! <img src=
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Well said Mark, (in both notes)
I noticed the attachment but thought I was swarn to secrecy. I guess the word is out then.
Tuck.
PS Kite arrived yesterday. Looks great, thanks.
Mark,
Is that lip on
WHAT THE
the
don't go underwater
thing you were talking about in France? Looks interesting...have to tried to attach something to an existing boat to see if the concept works? I know that the marine architects think it is cool but does it work? Maybe you could get some older design of boat and make a foam mold then glass it right onto the hull then try to bury the bow. I would like to see the video of that!
Later,
Dan
well that should take the presure off the Tiger!!!
thinking of you all I am on my way to Yeppoon for two days of Sun <img src=
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don't be a looser see you there Feb 2007 party time!!!
do not forget it is a open event so come and see whos the fastest
mark
If one lip works why not have five and get five times the lift. Oh, then it would be a clinker lookalike.
I can see the headlines now! Tiger updates to clinker.
Settle Tiger groupies..just kidding.