Anti-Tiger Smack

As the foundation president of F18 in Australia, the formation of which, was a catalyst to formalization of NAF18 and international status of the F18 class, I would like to make a few comments:
I am a Tiger sailor
I am I even a Hobie dealer
I have stood on the podium in most F18 events here.
With help from some others, I formed the Australian F18 class in the hope that all keen competitive catsailors could compete together and enjoy camaraderie. It worked for a while. In the beginning, I used to encourage others to purchase Nacras and even the

fledgling

Capricorn, in the hope that the class would grow and prosper. There was no aggressive marketing. Hobie won EVERYTHING here for a long time and even still does win most events. We never used the F18 class vehicle to deride other designs. Sure we would spruke of our achievements on our own commercial sites but we never berrated other manufacturers or their choice of boat in the public arena. Call it integrity, call it pride or dignity but it was a genuine attempt to build a class in which we could all benefit, by way of competition and boat sales.
I am well known for my

pie

theory here in Australia where we al help to grow the pie and benefit from increased participation.
The quote from Jill Nickerson appears on the Capricorn website. I find it offensive. Whilst it is a private opinion,Obviously it is endorsed by a manufacturer whose primary motivation is increasing market share.To date, official Capricorn involvement in positive promotion of the F18 class here has been zip! Yet they think it is appropriate to slag the opposition.
I've had a gutful of over-enthusiastic zealots who do nothing for the common good. Some see criticism of the opposition as a means of advancement.

I have other options which are far more enjoyable and much less work than F18. They are looking better by the day!

Mal Gray

I could be wrong Mark, but that schematic looks to me to be some designers way of manufacturing a hull with

tumblehome

yet still make it from out of two

female

moulds (instead of out of two

split down the middle

halves). In so doing the

hull/deck

join becomes the

step

or high chine along the sides. Building a hull in

female

hull and deck moulds has always been much more economical and time conservative than

split moulding”.
Basically the hulls would be built

upside down"

Interesting to hear this.
When I first found my Taipan 4.9 I had no people at all to talk to about what the boat was. On going to the AHPC site I read that I had bought the fastest boat on the planet which basicly s**t miracles.
I suppose I just wanted to believe all of that because I had one. It has taken a long time to find it is still a strong, high performance boat but has fallen behind because of lack of development and others emulating it. There are a whole bunch of boats that would usually whip it's A** and I am in this conversation because I felt the overenthusiastic rethoric on the site made me feel lied to. That made my sailing growth slower.
I am not saying I was lied to but it felt that way.
I was shocked that a sport that relies so much on tech and onto it inovation would be so flowery about reality.
As I tried to find out how to set the boat up I was gobsmacked about how little tech exchange there is between cat types, let alone mono/cat cross pollination. I think not trading trust and ideas slows the fleet down.
The rehoric does not stop at boats. I have also had to try to find my way through sheets and cords to understand which type and why.
The boat shops I found out after hundreds of dollars just talk rot and sell cord.
Then when I was recently going through a ropes catalogue I saw that the best trait one sheet type had was

its rugged good looks

at which point I learnt to believe nothing.
This site gives sailors a chance to try to cut through the BS and not spend stupid dollars. For those of you who have sponsorship or big wallets, that is great and good luck to you. The rest want to get the bang for the buck and need to do homework.
This discussion has grown from the first posting and it's not to bag Tigers, it has used them as a platform around which to discuss what is happening with boat types.
I am in a place where I have no physical contact with high tech cat sailing and right here is my class room.
To those who have delivered sensible debate and ideas, thanks. To the frightened who can't hear bad things about their ride. Get over it and make your feelings understood on the water.
From the whole of this thread what I have learnt is that Wouter has an unhealthy interest in off the beach race cats : ) and some lucky, tallented buggers get paid to do what I love and that PRACTICE RULES THE WAVES.

Hey, just my observation but I have always found that people who

bag

their opposition (them personally or their equiptment), usually bring out their competitive instinct instead and as a result tend to

raise the bar

rather than knock them out of the

race

I may be a little perverse, but if I

win

(anything) I enjoy it much more if the

losers

bag

me for my performance I.E

you were just lucky

or

If my boat wasn't such a dog today you would never have beaten ME

, etc. That always makes me feel better than if the people that I won from say things like,

well done

, or

you were definitely the best person out there today

, or

I sailed as good as I ever have but no one deserves it more than you

. Those sorts of comments tend to make me feel almost apologetic for winning, which takes the edge off the joy. It always feels better to have won over

bad

loser rather than

good

ones, makes what I have done feel just that little bit sweeter.

I can identify with that...I like watching the frustration oooze out of those people - makes me step up my game. I keep trying to do it until they can no longer blame it on my luck.

I don't know that your experience concerning inter exchange of ideas (or lack of), set up, technology, etc, is the "norm” WARBIRD. I have always found over many, many years of sailing that the vast majority of sailers, regardless of whatever class of boat, whether it be mono hulled dingy, multi hulled, trailer sailer, or ocean racer, whether the sailers be raw beginners or top professionals (America's cup excepted) have always been only too pleased to discuss any/all aspects of sailing with ANY interested party, and down through the years the adaptation of any GOOD idea relating to “set up”, fitting lay out, or design, has freely flowed between all and every class/type of boat.
If you want to know how anything on a boat works, or even how one class compares to another, always ask another sailer, they are always friendly and receptive to any other “of their kind”, (forget the rest I.E chandleries, sales people etc).
There is a camaraderie amongst all sailers, even if two of them are “deadly” enemies on dry land, they will still immediately go to each others assistance if needed “at sea”.

Ya gotta love the sore losers. They make it very hard not to smile from ear to ear while you beat them on every point of sail. But, always take the high road whether it's competition or selling boats or anything else. This thread was started because of precieved negative selling.

Negative selling only goes so far. Once the customer catches on that the majority of the pitch is trashing the competition they'll probably walk. A good example of no negative sell are NFL coaches. You'd think the opposing team were all gods from Mt. Olympus the way they talk.

Firstly, tell me which 16 footer without a kite is quicker than a Taipan 4.9 ?????

Also, if you fully optimised the platform to F16 specs (increase beam, self taking jib, snuffer, updated sails etc), I think you will find it to be at the top of the F16 class. The T4.9 was a $hit hot boat when it was first released some 14 yers ago..... and continues to be.

OK, Capricorn have spun events in their favour to help market themself..... Just like many other manufactures and other products in the past...... That's marketing. Not like Hobie Cat have not been down that path before.

AHPC make a very good product which can not be denined..... It may not be a Merc but if you want that sort of quality, expect to pay double and give Marstrom a call.

My personal opinion is that the Capricorn is a better finish and a more user frendly lay out then the Tiger. That is my personal taste and you do not have to agree with it..... But that is a large part of the reason I bought a Capricorn.

The Cap has also shown that it is atleast no slower than the Tiger as the Infusion will do also in the future.

I will say it again, the truth is there is F@%K all difference in speed between the boats and unless you are at the very top of the fleet, you will not notice the speed difference.

Now lets all stop this Manufacture bashing and just get out and sail...... Let the Manufactures fight it out themself whilst we sit back and enjoy the spin offs from it like improved quaility boats and competitive pricing.... The just choose the boat that is better suited for you.

I'm certainly not a great sailor, but the most rewarding wins I got this year was when a nacra One-design I-20 sailor (with the huge new mainsail) said to me that the only good thing about my boat (modified Taipan 4.9 = F16) was its lightweight. He said it to me on a club race day and later on I beat him to the finish line in both races (elapsed time). Call it luck, call it skill, or call it

he was having a bad day

, I don't care. It was one of the best vindicating experiences ever.

He never said anything afterwards.

Wouter

Mark,

I object to your insinuation. Were did I say the tiger is a

has been

?

And what has the Capricorn got to do with my comments. I never mentioned it. I only commented on the eternal

Tiger needs not to change

mantra, when it does change anyway.

The other stuff is approaching plain name-calling.

Hell, I drove your girlfriend around on a shopping mission for (also) your 2004 Punta ala campaign. Yes I guess I have too much time on my hands if I'm willing to do that. Next time I will just flip you guys off, okay.

And if you really want to know, I did see the pictures of your new design. My first thoughts, lets see it build and perform first. Up till then it is just a couple of electrons in an PC display. Am I being over critical here ? No, I just have the experience that it is actually quite hard to transform an idea in to a succesful sailboat (or even class). I've witnessed countless idea's which were aborted along the way. And I am informed enough to know your first Preditor design.

Good luck Mark,

Wouter

read the blurb about the Taipan on the site. While I know it is a great little boat
(I did choose it) and the others have all played actch up for over a decade the site would have you believe it is in a league with the 18s and 20s or maybe just the fastest boat in the whole World. I am talking about the rethoric.. I see it as unmittigated BS.

Wouter, I think it was you who said the Taipan was in danger of falling behind because of a lack of development. If we were not discussing a particualr boat, what would you think about the "hype' the retailers indulge in?

It is actually not in danger of falling behind, it has actually fallen behind already and the gap widens slowly but surely. This is partly the reason AHPC is currently designing its replacement. The Capricorn F16.

Actually it doesn't pains me to write this, certainly not in the way other boat owners seem to do when their design is subject to scruteny. Even my own boat, a modified Taipan, is falling behind currently. The new Ashby and Landenberger sails are just better then mine suit of sails (Goodall/Redhead from 2003). I know because I test sailed these as well as the other boats (Stealth, Blade).

Is the Taipan (or my own boat) out of its class for this reason ? Not yet really. While falling behind the Taipan is still about as fast as the newest designs in its class (F16's). Meaning to the extend that even a little difference in sailing skills can overcome this inequality. Which brings us back to the point that time spend on the water (training) and talent are the things that really pay off and not the choice of boat.

With the right upgrades there are a couple of years left in the competitive life of the Taipan but only with the right upgrades = changes. Something I need not convince you of I think.

I do believe the upgrades are small enough anually to prevent an arms race and to make participation not more expensive then in a pure One-Design race.

Well, some hype is necessary if you want to sell boats and stay in business. I had to do it when I was still an official in the F16 class. I never really did enjoy that part but it is an absolute necessity or you are going nowhere.

But I do believe some retailers are going over the top and I don't have much respect for that. In the end of day even Hype must be based on solid truthful core. I personally think the quote :

It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds.

was over the line of good taste.

In addition I fully expect private sailors, like the ones on this forum, to act against the hypes and provide the counterargument to the hype. I fully appreciate it when such a thing happens to the boat and hypes I favour. If the hype did have a solid core of truth then the this counterargument will never really hurt the design or sales as it will repeatily

proof" itself by reality. And I think most of us do accept a certain portion of hype. Afterall, we all understand that you don't approach a lady by first naming your bad points, right ?

Well this write-up is rather old and back then it was true to a large extend. In the last 10 years the other classes (Tornado, F18, A-cat) did really see alot of development while the Taipan was frozen in its 1989 state. It is indeed telling it took so long for the others to consistantly stay ahead of the Taipan. The introduction of the spinnaker to the other boats really was the thing that turned the fortunes of the Taipan.

But I agree that the I would have worded the pitch a little differently. But then again I'm the one who has been arguing that the Taipan class needed to incorporate design upgrades into their class for the last 7 years.

Still, we must also realize that with the upgrades the Taipan is indeed of the same order as the 18's and 20's; even the newer ones (assuming equal sailor skills). This latter condition is not a trivial one as the skill level in the Tornado, F18 and A-cat classes is just so incredibally high. Alot of people believe they can buy a good boat and immediately sail in the leading pack. But in reality you need a good amount of time to get to know the boat and work up sailing skills c.q. team coordination.

I don't think enough of Taipan / F16 sailors are putting in this effort/time yet. I certainly don't. I got a new crew almost every year. This is skewing comparisons.

So overall, I don't think it is unfounded BS, even though I would have worded the write-up significantly differently. I agree with you that unfounded retoric is bad taste and also just simply bad.

Almost as bad as not upgrading your boat every now and then.

C ya

Wouter

What blurb are you quoting...... I see the following and do not see ANYTING missleading in it.

Also the Taipan is such a great little boat which punches well and trully above its weight.

VYC Yardstick

Taipan 4.9 Sloop - 73.5
Alpha Omega 5.0 - 82.0
Calypso 16 - 85.5
Cobra 16 - 84.0
Gemini - 88.0
Hydra 16 - 85.0
Hobie 16 - 81.5
Hobie 18 - 78.5
Hobie 20 - 73.0
NACRA 5.0 - 81.0
NACRA 5.2 - 79.0
NACRA 5.5 - 73.5
NACRA 5.8 - 72
Stingray 18 mkII 74.5

Taipan 4.9 cat rigged - 76.5
Dolphin 16 - 85.0
Hobie 17 - 82.5
Hobie 17 sport - 79.0
Nacra 16sq - 79.5
NARCA 18 sq - 73.5

From the AHPC web site

The T4.9 is not and never has been an F16. The reason why Greg is not persuing it is because the 4.9 class is alive and well in OZ and it is not the manufacture, but the class members who have a say in its future.

If they wanted to introduce a new main sail, AHPC would be more than happy to develop one.

If you did want to optmise the Taipan 4.9 as an F16, you would increase the beam, add a carbon mast, self tacking jib, more modern main sail, snuffer and spinnaker. To do this you will change the entire boat with the exception of the foils and hulls.

And if you did do this, I think you will find it will give no ground to a Blade or a Stealth.

Greg will plan to develop a new F16 based on the Capricorn so as not to do damage to the existing T4.9 fleet.

Wouter, lighten up, the posting was not all about you, [censored] if a ozzie wonts to offend, you would know about!!anyway you should go back and check out all our postings you have a lot to say.
lov mark

Alright, everything is cool then

Wouter

Actually the changes I am making are a little different.
I already have an A class carbon mast and am fitting wings so beam won't be widened and there are good arguments for that. I am still deciding what height to have it. I will trial the boat as a super sloop with the larger genoa and if I can hack the pace I will cut the size of the jib and add a roller furling hooter kit because I can't be bothered with a Spinny set up.

If it comes down to who to take seriously about the advantages and realities of a Taipan 4.9 in regards to reality or just hype I will follow the lead of Wouter. Simply because he has one, is a tallented sailor and is undeniably studious and devoted to making it go fast.
But I hear your argument.

It is the development of other boats in relation to the old blurb that I refer to. Old blurb is no excuse..it is a website so update it. For that matter update the boat. making an entirely new platform truely will leave the 4.9 in the past.

I have sailed 4.9s quiet often over a long period of time. Our club whilst numbers have dropped recently, boasted a good fleet of them. Australia still boasts a good fleet of them and get good numbers to major regattas.

Wouter admitted he has never taken them that seriously or realy put the time into them. He may be a good sailor, however the AUS 4.9 fleet is in a different leauge and have some real world class sailors.... Sailors that have placed at the top of International fleets such as A Class, Tornado and F18.... And I am not just talking about Gashby.

If it comes down to who to take seriously about the advantages and realities of a Taipan 4.9

..... Then talk to the AUS Taipan fleet.

Quote or direct us to the 'old' blurb or it no longer exists.

I don't think you realise how the class stands in OZ..... You admit in previous posts that you know very little about the 4.9 and that you also have no one to race aginst in NZ.... Yet you feel qualified to pass these comments.

Firstly, it is the class members that make the decision to change... Not AHPC. The class is alive and well and its members are currently happy, so why change. Also, name another 16 footer without spinnaker that comes even close at the moment.

The Hobie 16 is way out of date.... Should they change.

Personly I think the hull shape of the Taipans are still up there with the best of them.

Something you may begin to understand about me is that I am hear to learn, not just to see myslef in print or to be right. If I do not pass comments I cannot participate. You are clear that the Taipan is outmoded speed wise compared to the F16 version of same boat. So let's not pretend those advances do not exist. Sure, If we go back to 1995 the Taipan is awesome, but as Wouter says the advances have been made and AHPC have not decided to advance the boat and wish to go with a new platform. Is that not the death nell/ If it is so crash hot why are the very people who designed and made it moving on?????
You have said in your last post the numbers in your club have dwindled.What are they sailing now?.. I will bet the boats they have chosen are a new box rule class with spinnies.
The boat will always be a great ride so die hards will keep racing them, or odd balls like me in the wops who just have a need for speed, just because they exist but do you seriously think that when the new boat come out that people will buy the old one and the old Taipan 4.9 class will thrive and grow?

The Taipan does not meet F16 specs.... It is not a spinnaker class for starters. Different boat, Different market.

Once again... It is not AHPC descision but that of the association and it's members. Still after 14 or so years, the Taipan has no equal as far as 16 foot non spinnaker cats go...... So show me where the Blade, Stealth ect are superior here. The 4.9 is optimised for this configeration where the others are optimised for spinnaker.

If you decide to optimise and develop the 4.9 as an F16 then some F16 sailors will be eating some humble pie.

However, as I stated before.... It is in the best interest of the 4.9 class to develop a new platform for F16 so as to not do any damage to what is still a very strong class.

Our club has dropped in numbers significantly with fleets such as 4.9s, A Class and Nacra 5.8s which were previously the most popular classes now seeing small fleets as with all other classes. Some of our 5.8 and Tornado sailors have moved into the F18 Class but in general, we as with most sailing clubs, have just lost members.

In Oz the strongest cat fleets nationaly are still the A Class, F18, Hobie 16 and Taipan 4.9.

Hey Stephen, those yardsticks are a little

misleading

. although the Taipans have been racing for many years and their yardstick represent THEIR current comparative performance against boats such as A class, Formula 18's Tornado's and 5.8 Nacra's, there are a lot of cats on that list who's ratings have been

stuck in time

and bear no relationship to current performance (if in fact all of them were even still racing)
One comparison that you have neglected is the comparison of the CURRENT Yachting Victoria yardstick rating for the F14, which at 77 compares very favourably to the 76.5 and the 73.5 for the Taipan. (If I were sailing a Taipan I would definitely want it set up as an F16, if for no other reason than to “get the F14’s off my back”)

You can't have it both ways. If the Taipan 4.9 is not developing because of the sailors but AHPC want to make an excellent F16 why are they changing the platform. They don't have to ask the 4.9 fleet for permission and if they kept the same platform the older boats would have more life.
I will stick with my first position, Wouter seems for more pragmatic and less passionate about this one.
But passion is a great thing.

I am in no way passionate about the class, have never owned one and only been a member of the Association for the Capricorn Nationals this year only.

I just call it as I see it and it looks like we have people passing comment from other countries that have no idea about the AUS Taipan sceane which is where it is ALL happening.

Why not post these comments on the Taipan Yahoo group forums and see the responses you get.

I think you will find Wouter is more passionate and has more of an interest in the 16 footers than I have.

Darryl, yes some of those yardsticks may be a little inaccurate..... but not by THAT much. I am quoting 2005/2006 yardstick data too.

From what I have heard the little F14 is a bit of a giant killer too and look forward to saeeing it at Forster soon.

The Marstrom 18 is much quicker than the A Class..... So should the A Class evolve ???? Has it been left behind, in the past.

M18 is wider, taller mast, larger main and a spinnaker added.

The F16 is also wider than a Taipan 4.9, larger main, spinnaker added.

Should the 4.9 class and A Class move ahead with the times????? If their members disagree and the class is still strong, then why change.

Don't get me wrong... I have always been vocal about how I would like to see the 4.9 move to full spec F16 and the A Class adopt spinnakers.... However this is not what the class wants and it should not be forced upon them.

I don't know Stephen, there never was a competitive race ever sailed by an Alpha Omega 5m when they didn't absolutely

thrash

any and all Hobie 16's over the line, and when the Taipans were in their first three years of racing (with many top sailers in the class as well) and the 5m Alpha's still raced competitive fleets, it was only on the rare occasion that a Taipan would ever cross the line in front of the first Alpha, But sadly that is all in the past “glory days

when numbers of ALL cats were really

up" and “inter class” competition was at it’s highest peak.
We are really looking forward to Forster, BUT, lets be truthful now, you will only be pleased to see us if your view of the F14 is from looking at them from “some where over your transoms”! If you have to look forward to catch a glimpse of them, will we have “worn out our welcome”?? (He, He, He).
(Personally – and it is just a personal opinion – I think that the Taipans are missing a golden opportunity by not “upgrading” their specs to full F16 as a class. It would achieve the greatest outcome with the minimum disruption, and breathe new life into the class that would see them at the “forefront” for many more years to come).