Area D - I need YOUR input...

Hi John,

Thanks for being the rep for us and spending your own time and money to help the area. Much appreciated!

Here are some issues that could be addressed:

1) Personally, I feel the Alter Cup was damaged when it went to 20 teams. I highly recommend going back to the original 10 area winners. If we need a "Rock Star" regatta, fine. Just do it the prior week or the week after as still another Championship -- perhaps the "Tucker Cup."

2) On ratings there is no way a modification can be made to boats that have no "minimum weight" and so is totally bogus. That needs to be addressed.

3) Also on ratings, I can see no reason for the harsh penalty for spin modification for distance racing. I know the intent was for straight line distance races. But even that is unfair no matter which way the wind is blowing. If you register early and the wind is in your favor.., Hooray! But, on the other hand if it is on the nose all the way, why bother sailing?

Another example is our Steeplechase or the RTI-- it is around an island much like a triangle race with all points of sail. So, why the heavy hit because it is a distance race?

4) NAMSA is going to work hard at developing a Youth class in North America and want to work hard on this side by side, hand in hand with the Multihull Council and need to know what we can do. We have some ideas that we intend to go forward on, but any input from them would be great.

I am sure I will think of a ton more things once you are gone.

Thanks again, John,

Rick

Probably lots more st

John,

I also believe the Alter Cup should be 10 teams. Have a champions regatta or something along those lines after the AC. The current solution is too watered down with "local" petitions.

Bob Curry

Thanks, Rick -

It was good to see you last week - rare treat!

On your suggestion regarding the Alter Cup - that's a sore point with me as well, but I'd like some more info from your perspective. Please clarify what you mean by the regatta being damaged. Do you feel there are too many participants? How would you feel about the same number of participants, but MORE areas (e.g., 12-15 areas sending teams rather than the current 10)? Keep in mind that US Sailing does not currently recognize the Alter Cup as a Championship due to the three petition positions. One of my personal goals is to see that the Cup gets full Championship status back.

Regarding ratings - are you referring to boat or crew weight? What, in your opinion, makes the rating unuseable by not having one or both specified by Portsmouth or by Class Association? Can you give me an example - I think I'm missing your point...

Distance spin mod - got ya. I'll pass it along.

On Youth Sailing - Art Stevens has been steaming along with the Fast and Fun program and the Youth Multihull Championship - I'll see if we can't get some specifics together of where that's all headed and what's planned for the upcoming year. I believe we are still seeking to have the Youth Championship event someday (2004?) combined with the Alter Cup. I'll get you more info so that cooperation with NAMSA is maxed.

Thanks so much for the input - hope to hear more.

John

John I have a ? concerning min.crew weight. The example is a Dart 20. It has no min. crew weight. This is a two person boat (20' sloop rigged boat) When single handed what mod. factor is used? Would the mod. factor be the same if I were to sail my Mystere 6.0 (20' boat min. crew weight 315#) single handed?

Mike Catley

John

Why is area D so large? It seems that area D has a good turn out of really good sailors and other areas only have small turn outs and not as many good sailors. Also you have to travel a long way just to race( might get more sailors if the areas were not so big.

Just a thought

I think David has a point. The area is packed with "rock stars," and it's also quite large. The # of sailors in FL alone is probably = to many other Alter Cup areas.

Thanks, John, for all the work you put into this stuff.

Michael Coffman

T4.9#32

I did not know that "championship" status did not apply simply because of the petition positions. When US Sailing eliminated several events from "championship" status, they did not say why -- just that there were too many championships and it was "confusing for the media." There is no question that you need to answer here, but I just think it has been ridiculous that we cannot call the Alter Cup a "Championship." As far as I know, it is officially the U.S. Multihull Open. It can't be called a "Cup" (even though we call it the Alter Cup), and it can't be called a "Championship," (even though we also call it the US Sailing Multihull Championship). Apparently, "U.S. Multihull Championship" is okay if you eliminate the word "Sailing"? But officially it is the "Open." Talk about being confusing for the media!!!

Hi John,

Your replies in red, mine in black:

[color]On your suggestion regarding the Alter Cup - that's a sore point with me as well, but I'd like some more info from your perspective. Please clarify what you mean by the regatta being damaged. Do you feel there are too many participants? How would you feel about the same number of participants, but MORE areas (e.g., 12-15 areas sending teams rather than the current 10)? Keep in mind that US Sailing does not currently recognize the Alter Cup as a Championship due to the three petition positions. One of my personal goals is to see that the Cup gets full Championship status back.

As a brief history this was a fine event and pitted the top teams from the ten areas. And boat manufacturers were kind enough to supply 10 boats for the competition. The ten boats were sailed in a round-robin format so that no one was stuck with a "bad" boat.

Simply put: if you won your area, you went to the Alter Cup and there met the winners from the other nine areas. I was lucky enough to eke out a win from my area and was present for the very first one at Tom's River, NJ (won by Carlton Tucker, I might add).

By the way, this is the way all US Sailing Championships are run.

But there was a faction in the multihulls that decided we are much smarter and had much better ideas than what tradition and experience have given us and petitioned to get all the top guns from all the top classes to be there. They would have liked to eliminate the 10 area teams, but could not get that pushed through.

Forgive my digression, but their reasoning was that there were more rock star sailors in California than anywhere else and why should they only be able to send one of their very best. They voiced the opinion that why should unknown sailors from Iowa, Connecticut, Ohio or North Carolina be there when such great as Hobie, Jr., Alan Egusa, et al sit at home?

Now, I see in another post of this thread that some feel the same way about the Florida area and our overflow of great sailors.

None of that made any sense to me then, nor does it now. Each area simply sends their very best team.., and that is it. That way you have the entire country represented in a National Championship. Each sending their best. Sure, there may be some rock stars from Florida that may not get to go, but that would be because they lost to the guy that is going.

So, now they needed 20 boats but no boat manufacturer was about to put up that many boats. The answer was to devise this logistical calculation that somehow put all the sailors on all the boats some of the time. While it was a very clever way to handle 20 teams, it could only be done with exactly 20 teams.

Quite often there would be champs from not well known classes that were totally ignored (i.e., Shark, Isotope, some Nacras, et al) and in order to fill the 20 team spots they quietly asked for petitions to sail in those spots.

In one of the first of these events I went by petition although I had not won a decent race all year and did not deserve to go. But I wanted to test the water. Then just before the Alter Cup they were still short three positions. They started calling around to their local sailors to see who wanted to be in the Alter Cup at the last moment. They had sailors brought in right off the beach.

This did not make a Championship in my mind. Guess that was what I meant by it being damaged.

And now the thing has developed to a point there are two fleets.

I would propose we go back to the original format.

For those that think the teams should all be rock stars, fine! Have an invitational regatta following the Alter Cup or just before it that brings ten National Champions to the table. While we are at it have the same boats used for a Women's Championship and then a Junior Championship, and perhaps even a Masters..

[color]Regarding ratings - are you referring to boat or crew weight? What, in your opinion, makes the rating unuseable by not having one or both specified by Portsmouth or by Class Association? Can you give me an example - I think I'm missing your point...

Once we had modifications if you sailed a two-person boat single handed, and if you sailed a single-handed boat with two. That is no longer in the modifications.

It seems they took that Fat Boy thing and combined it with the two person, one person thing and ended up with percentages of the minimum weight.

That might be fine for boats with minimum weights, but there are lots of good classes that do not have minimum weights.

For example, I sailed my Taipan 4.9 Uni which I normally sail by myself in the Key Largo Steeplechase. However, the SI's do not allow for single-handing that race, so I had a petite lady sail with me. But there was no way to change the rating under the present modifications.

Thanks,

Rick

Hey Mike -

Where do you sail? I'm not familiar with the Sun Coast of Florida - thought I knew this state upside-down...

First off, let me say that I think your fleet's decision on how to deal with each boat that sails should be the final word. Here in Pensacola, there are a lot of different kind of boat and crew combinations, and we spent a lot of time at the beginning of the year trying to decide what modifications should be used and what shouldn't and how we would deal with special cases. It seems like a pain, but it will save you some brain sweat later, maybe at a time when you're just trying to get your boat on the trailer and the beer into your belly.

That said, it looks like the US Sailing modifications would decide how the single-hand Dart would be rated. If there were one sailing here, I'd first look for the Class Rules since the D20 isn't listed in the Multihull Tables with a crew weight or number. A quick search took me to the Canadian Dart Catamaran Association where the specs listed crew as one or two people, and a righting weight was listed, but no minimum crew weight. It looks like a single-handed Dart doesn't take a hit. The specs DO say that one trap is standard with a second being optional - you might take a hit sailing with two people and two traps. The Mystere 4.3 is similar - I don't take a hit while single-handing, but I do if my wife is with me and we have a second trap wire on the boat.

The Mystere 6.0, on the other hand, does list a minimum crew weight and number of crew (two). If you single-handed that boat in a regatta here, you'd apply the appropriate Light Weight modification. As Rick notes below, there is no longer a "single-hand" modifier on the books.

That's how I see it, but I could be wrong - still it's best to get your volunteers together and decide how to handle the boats in your fleet. The Portsmouth Numbers are diligently maintained and constantly scrutinized, so I strongly encourage their use, but I recognize that some of the permutations can be a pain. For example, should the sailor or the committee be held responsible for claiming/applying modifications? Are you going to weigh every team and boat, measure all the sails, and check all the class rules before every weekend get-together? It's a tough balance. At soime point, you just want to get back to the fun of sailing.

Good luck - hope to meet you at the Area Qualifier next month. Didn't mean to write a novel, here... got kinda the long-winded answer, didn't you?

John

Hi David and Micheal -

You're right - Area D is BIG and there're a lot of great sailors here in the southeast. I have wanted to look at splitting up the area for a couple of years, but ran into some ethical roadblocks right away. Any proposal to make more US Sailing Multihull Areas will have to be considered VERY carefully to assure that it is something that PROMOTES cat sailing and doesn't make things worse in some unforseen manner. You'd have to be careful that any new divisions weren't based on what sailors are where, but on geographical features that influence regatta attendance. My feeling is that the ONLY good reason to split up existing areas is to increase the participation in the Area Qualifiers for the Alter Cup. Right now, I know there are sailors in the Carolinas who simply can't make a weekend regatta in the Keys, for example. Same thing goes for someone in Louisianna trying to drive to Wilmington, NC for an event there. We're REALLY spread out. Splitting up areas purely for the reason that there are concentrations of good sailors in specific regions, as Rick brings up in his retrospective below, isn't the way I think this should be approached.

A side effect of more areas might be beneficial, too - if there were enough area champs to fill the designated slots for the Alter Cup, if its 10 or 20 or 50, then the Cup meets the criteria for a US Sailing Championship again... I think that's worth looking at.

Thanks for the comments, fellas. I appreciate your time.

John

I don't think you would ever get US Sailing to agree on dividing up the area.

But, while reading your posts about the size of the area and how NC and Key Largo, etc. are too far apart, it occured to me that in large areas like this we could have feeder regattas for the Alter Cup Eliminator. Perhaps have the Piedmont area have a Eliminator Qualifier, S. Fl another, Deep South another and the top teams compete in the Elimination.

In other words, another layer below the elimination. Another thing that US Sailing does with their other Championships.

On the other hand, while I have sort of resented the Elimination being in the Pensacola/Ft Walton area for so many years (a 12 hour drive from S. Fl) I can see that it is a more centrally located venue.

Mark was gracious enough to allow us to have it at the Tradewinds a few years back and that is not too bad since it is a pretty major regatta.

Also the Spring Fever is pretty central.

Big thing for our area is to get a lot of boats trying to qualify.

At any rate, enough rambling. Go get 'em, John!

Rick

I have to chime in that I like the current 20 team format a lot. I speak from experience since I have qualified in 3 out of the last 4 years. I have talked to the other competitors and all that I've talked to like the current 20 team format. I believe that the championship would lose a lot of interest if we went back to just the 10 areas. I believe with just the 10 areas one or two of the areas would win it every year and it would lose interest.

I believe the petition problem that Rick is talking about that happened 5 years ago and they were still working out the bugs in the system. With the petitions online and a time limit on the petitions the problem seems to be handled.

This event has drawn better and better competition every year and it continues to get a lot of interest. I would hate to see us take a step in the wrong direction now. The best multihull sailors know that the best sailors will be there on equal boats and it causes a lot of enthusiasm for the event.

As far as splitting areas along different lines, I beleive that the lines for the areas come from US Sailing. I believe any line that you change will make some people happy and disappoint others. I think changing lines for reasons of talent in one area is wrong. My area (Area K) streches from North Dakota to Illinois (1400mi). So Area D is not the only large area. Area H stretches from Montana to Hawaii so I don't have any distance on them.

Keep One Hull Flying,

Mike Hill

H20 #791

Hi Mike -

Thanks for the note - I wondered if other Area Reps would speak up once the discussion got going.

I recognize that Area D is not the only large area - its not even the second or third largest. I only was discussing Area D 'cause that's the one I live in. Because we both are responsible for a fair and open qualifying event, we face some of the same issues. As far as the current lines between areas, the Multihulls have already strayed from the US Sailing boundaries for other reasons. I don't see why we couldn't continue to draw them with respect to Multis rather than the traditional Mono lines that are grounded by specific YCs. We agree that any discourse on the issue must disregard specific sailors' talents. I'm not trying to rock the boat just to get wet - I've gotten wet enough recently. My ultimate hope is to increase participation in area events. The number of teams at the Alter Cup is a seperate but related issue.

Your assertion that only one or two areas would ever win the event if the ten-team format is used is a line of thinking that I want to avoid. I believe strongly that the problem should be thought through from the direction of "how do we get more folks at the area events" and let the cause and effect evolve, rather than take a conclusion, desirable or otherwise, and work backward from there. I think if we get more people excited about competing at the Area level, the interest in the Cup will take care of itself. I'm not sure that 10 teams is the answer, but that is one suggestion that I'm getting a lot of mail about this week.

Thanks again for offering your perspective - and it was nice to see you last week, even though the wind sucked instead of blew.

John

Hi John,

The suncoast is the Tampa,Clearwater and St. Pete area. Central west Fla. I sail from the Dunedin causeway.

I do understand the need to simplfy and make fair the rules as they pertain to the mods. Every once and a while something comes up to make you wonder or question.

This topic came up in a discussion some were having

so I brought it here to give it the 3rd degree.

I did check the Dart site and the boat there was a 18' not the 20. At least I did not see the 20. As far as the single trap theory verses the double, the Tornado was a single trap boat until recently. In fact the designer of the Dart was the same as the Tornado.

Rick mentions the T 4.9. But I think that boat has 3 or 4 configurations. Its clearly stated.

One other ? In the event you had a boat with over size main,jib and lightweight, would you apply the largest mod. number first? Would it be main, jib then weight?

Thanks for your time here and at US sailing and I agree, the main thing is to have fun.

Mike Catley

Yes John,

I think all right thinking people think that all right thinking people should sail all Area D races out of Pensacola Beach!

JUST KIDDING, I was trying to see if my photo thingy would show up under my name! (TT Note: I took USA 124 in front of me out of the picture!)

Enjoy,

Mark

Hello John

I think the issue is the fun factor of the event. Its not about the party... its about the racing. So.

I don't think the alter cup qualifier can be the only buoy's portsmouth race in your area. If you race in a one design fleet exclusively, the Alter qualifier is very different and probably not fun. The possiblity of racing a wave against a tornado is ridicuous and undercuts participation.

Perhaps you don't think handicap racing is fair, you don't think your type of boat can win, etc etc. or the rock star in your fleet may or may not get hammered in portsmouth racing. Spinaker versus non spin's are not fair.... Uni's versus everyone else are not fair... Whatever the story... You don't take your limited time and money and choose to compete in the qualifier at the expense of one of your one design events or traditional events. You probably compute the fun factor as relatively low compared to your other choices.

I think you have to have one or two other well attended important portsmouth events as prominent events on the schedule, otherwise, the alter qualifier is a very odd duck for many racers. Perhaps if PN racing was viewed as competitive, the fun factor would go up. The model that I think works well is the catfight in Michigan.

A second thought is that perhaps a change in format would improve matters. For instance, If the championships were to be held on 20 foot sloop rig boats.... The qualifier would be open to all 19 and 20 foot sloop rigs... Likewise, uni's, 16 footers and all of the spin boats would be resonable groups.

The marketing for the alter cup qualifier would be your regional championship for similar types of boats. This would amount to virtually level or formula racing. This might raise the fun factor as well by making the event competiive.

As itstands now.... only die hards who can never get enough racing and those who feel that they could win the event tend to participate... everyone else competes at their conviencene, eg proximity, weather.

Take Care

Mark

What if... instead of going back to 10 teams, you removed the petition slots and placed them in the areas? Kinda the way the govornment works...you have more people at your regatta, you have more spots available to you. Don't go beyond the 20 team limit, but "reward" the top areas for better attendance. I know that John and I talked about this point last week and really think it is a good idea.

It would keep the pressure on the powerhouse areas to have high attendance and get the extra spots. All the petition sailors come from those areas anyway... This would keep enough teams in it to be interisting and available for more sailors. It would also solve the "problem" of US Sailing and it's Championship rules.

My 2c's .... flame away

Will R

In reply to Will_R in the second Alter Cup there were 20 Hobie 18s supplied (I believe that was the only time there were twenty boats available -- which unfortunately opened the can of worms we now deal with) and they took the winner and runner up from each area.

But to answer Mike and others, twenty teams is NOT good. That is too many teams and just because someone figured out a way to put 20 teams on 10 boats does not make it a great way to handle things.

Some have said that it is great to have all the elite there, but that is not the reason for the Alter Cup. Again, if you want that, have another event before or following for the elitist sailors.

With the ten area teams, there is no problem on who goes and who doesn't go. But, when you start getting into selecting other sailors, how do you do it? Popularity? Who made the most posts on the Forum? or just someone off the beach? That destroys, weakens and dirties the water for the Alter Cup.

Just look at all the other US Sailing Championships and you will see how they are all set up. We take what has been established for eons and then stamp it and screw it up with our own cat-intelligence and then wonder why the Alter Cup is no longer sanctioned as a US Sailing Championship and wonder why multihulls remain as outcasts.

Again, for those that think it is wonderful to have nothing but rock stars there, fine. But do it at a different event that can precede or follow the Alter Cup. The trophy could be the Tucker Trophy.

Hey Mark -

We're off the main subject a little, here, but you make some interesting and important observations. Your post goes more to how the Area Reps are working with organizations to put on the Eliminations each year.

There are many different fleets within Area D - we're pretty diverse. Some pockets of the traditional one-design fleets are thriving, but one-design racing has fallen by the wayside in other locales, be it Hobie, Prindle, Nacra, etc. I haven't been around a particularly long time, but I already have seen the ebb and flow of Nacra 5.5s, Hobie 18s, and Prindle 19s here and there around the southeast. I just was made aware this week of a G-Cat fleet on a lake in SC. Some of the clubs and organizations around the area host nothing but, or predominantly, Portsmouth racing with imbedded one-design fleets. Your example of the Catfight is a good one, and there are similar regattas to hold up as examples in Area D - the St. Augustine Summer Sizzler, Spring Fever, Panama City's Spring and Fall Series, Key Sailing's Winter Series and Icepick regattas, Rick and Mary's annual Tradewinds Regatta. I have heard criticism of Portsmouth racing from strong one-design areas, but the idea of an open regatta with overall Portsmouth scoring and the "five makes a fleet" guideline is working and working well. So, you see, the Qualifier is not the only Portsmouth event on the calendar down here.

My idea as Area Rep was to take the Qualifier and piggy-back it onto another, successful event. I say its my idea, but its not really - this was done by the previous Rep as well. The challenge has been to de-mystify the scoring and convince the host organization that there isn't any extra effort involved in having their regatta called the Qualifier. My responsibility to the host organization is to provide a template for the SIs and NOR, and to offer myself as scorer so that nobody else has the headache of sorting out fleets and checking the math.

Here's how its working this year - early on, the Clearwater Community Sailing Center folks indicated they were willing to discuss the possibility of hosting the Qualifier with a regatta they were already planning - the Florida Multihull Championship. We worked out a NOR that met the requirements of US Sailing, but also pulled in the goals for the event that the club specified. Then we started with the Alter Cup SI template and worked in the language for the FL Championship. The real key to the whole thing is to make sure that everyone racing for the Qualifier starts at the same time and sails the same course - everything else is just playing with the scores to pull out the one-design fleets and declare the individual class state champs. Throw all the scores together, and voila - that's our Area winner.

As to your second point, its important to keep in mind that US Sailing is striving to be inclusive - limiting the type of boat that can compete in the Qualifier as narrowly as you suggest is not something that I think should be done. I already feel that US Sailing's excluding boats over 22 feet is questionable. The intent is that if you have a boat and it has an unqualified rating, you can come and race. Period. No manufacturer, no fleet, no class, no organization can tell you to take a hike. There won't be a seperate, smaller course, and you won't get second-class status. Sail your rig better than the guy next to you on the start line, and you've got a shot at the Cup. Or just come and put together best series you can under the most fair conditions the host can provide. Whatever. Bottom line - the Qualifier isn't about one-design or formula. It's not intended that way and I don't think it would work that way. The person who gets around the course the best is the one that should win and go on the represent the area - its not about who's best on a specific type of boat. There are already very healthy one-design and formula championships for that.

Whew... what a rant, eh? Didn't mean to go on and on. Thanks for your post - please understand that I am struggling to get a handle on what sailors think here in this area - I won't even begin to claim to understand how things are up on the Cheasapeake where you live. I hope you'll take a few moments and pass your thoughts along to your Rep, who is certain to have a better perspective than I (me?).

Regards -

John

John,

Your idea sounds great. The only potential "problem" I can see is that I think everyone who participates in an Alter Cup Qualifier has to be a paid member of US Sailing. This requirement seems to have been a drawback in the past as far as getting people to participate in the qualifiers -- if they are not members of US Sailing, they don't see why they should pay the extra money to join just so they can sail in this one event and take a chance that they might win.

I am not really clear on whether you are planning to choose the winner from a group that belong to US Sailing and are signing up specifically for the qualifier or if you are planning to choose the winner of the overall group, many of whom may not be members of US Sailing. In the latter case, would it be "legal"? And what if the winner is not a member?

In the early days of the Alter Cup, I think some of the areas were a little more loose about the US Sailing membership requirement, and the winner, if not a member, was allowed to join after the regatta was over.

Area Reps in the past have sometimes tried to include the Alter Cup Qualifier within bigger events, but it didn't usually work too well because the sailors had to make a choice as to whether to sail in the Qualifier or sail in their usual one-design class or in a much bigger open Portsmouth class.

Personally, I think everyone who races should be a member of US Sailing; and it would make it a lot easier to do these qualifying events. But, unfortunately, that is not the case.

Maybe you already have this situation covered.

The BIG problem regarding the Alter Cup has always been general apathy. There just is not a lot of interest in it and there is not much publicity and hype to get people interested. It would be great if we could get ladder events going throughout the various US Sailing Areas, just as the monohulls do, leading up to the big qualifier event and ultimately to the championship. But, again, we run into that problem of US Sailing membership.

I agree with what Mary said but would like to propose this: Instead of taking "the winner" and introducing all sorts of US Sailing Membership problems, how about taking the highest placing US Sailing Member at the time? Don't exclude anybody from the qualifier but it will be tough luck for the people who won but weren't members (i.e. won the battle but not the war ).

I also think that turning the event back into a true "Championship" will bring with it more excitement and following than if it continues to be dominated by a group of well known sailors selected by petition. The American Football and Baseball Allstar games are exciting and bring a lot of attention but they don't come close to the interest generated by their respective true Championship / SuperBowl games. Bring on the rock stars for the Alter Cup but make it a fair fight for up and comers with qualifiers for all.

Hi Jake and Mary -

You are correct - US Sailing membership is required to sail in the Qualifier. I was trying to avoid placing an add for membership on the Forum - suffice it to say I will be at the registration table in Clearwater with some goodies, and explaining to anyone who's not currently a member what all the benefits (monetary and otherwise) of joining are. Benefits are year-'round, not just for the one regatta. Great Juniors membership option, too. If anyone is interested, please take a look at the Golden Anchor program at http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/ga.htm. 'Nuff said.

Regarding the way that the Clearwater folks are asking me to score the Qualifier/Fla Champs in November - there will be breakouts for one-design fleets, the Qualifier, and overall. Only US Sailing members will be scored in the Qualifier - there's a place on the entry form to indicate if you're sailing one or both fleets. There's no extra registration cost to sail in BOTH events. US Sailing membership is encouraged, but IS NOT required to compete in the Fla State Champs. That's the difference from years-past - you don't have to choose one or the other! Do one, or do both!

I like the idea of ladder events like the big boats do - I have gotten a number of e-mails on that. The trick will be, just like with the Qualifier, convincing a club or fleet that its not a big deal to designate an existing regatta part of a ladder. The regatta schedule looks very full - without use of existing regattas, I don't see how a series of new events could be built without stealing participants from someone else's event. That's counterproductive! Something to look into as the season winds down - thanks!

John

I sailed as a crew in a Alter cup race in Pensacola in 1998 the weekend before the Hobie nationals. I was not a member of US sailing but the skipper and boat owner was and asked if I needed to be a member, the answer was no. After sailing a Hobie 18 against some super cat 22 with chutes and sailing some 2 to 3 hour races without any breaks( as soon as we finished they started the next race) I was intrested to see how we did and come to find out we were not scored because I was not a member. That was my first and last Alter cup race.

David Lennard

Rick you wrote:

But, when you start getting into selecting other sailors, how do you do it? Popularity? Who made the most posts on the Forum? or just someone off the beach? That destroys, weakens and dirties the water for the Alter Cup.

Rick your rant is not substantiated in any way!

Why is the current process foul? You point to ONE example (The fiirst one with 20 boats) where the organizors were behind the curve. Since then, the organizers have done a terrific job assembling the participants. If you disagree... point to how the current process if flawed.

From my point of view the process is reasonable.

First of all... you have to be willing to take the time and money to atttend.... (This happens to be the serious racers)

To prove that you are willing you must apply. To prove that you are qualified you must send in a sailing resume which documents your qualifications.

So.... now the selection committe has data... IE How you have performed in national competitive regattas. This evaluation is pretty strait forward. Factors such as number of boats in the regatta that you beat will be taken into account as well. If you are saying that the committe has shown bias or excluded eqaually qualified sailors... Make the charge and provide some evidence.

Could you have a dead even tie... Sure... but I don't think that you too many cases where solomon like wisdom is required. But if you believe this to be foul... make the charge and provide some evidence.

The goal of the US Sailing is to provide a high quality championships for its members. The event must be worth attending cause you don't win money.

Prior to the invitation to class champions and petitions… the event was completely without interest to the majority of the cat racing community. Frequently, the Area winners would not even attend, nor would the runner ups! The good racers would not spend a week competing for a title of any stature, when half the racers were not competitive (after winning a 3 or 5 boat regional qualifier held on a Thursday… (true in the Northwest). Participation was restricted by how far away you had to travel. Now at least the serious racers want to compete in the championship Regatta and will attend the qualifiers because the racing is of a very high level and the talent is pretty deep. Interest has dramatically improved.

US Sailings goal is to have lots of participation and interest in the championship... The current format has improved participation and certainly generated more interest.

You also write:

wonder why the Alter Cup is no longer sanctioned as a US Sailing Championship and wonder why multihulls remain as outcasts.

You are factually wrong.

The US Sailing body demoted SEVERAL other championships BECAUSE their sports marketing consultant told them that they had too many championships and it was confusing to market. It was NOT because we had petitions for the championships as you infer. This desciion was made at the Baltimore US Sailing meeting and NO decisions made by the Multihull council or the championship committe affected the outcome in any way.

Cat sailors are NOT second class citizens by US Sailings actions. If we do not have much clout in US Sailing policy, It is because we DO NOT WANT TO PLAY with the yacht club infrastructure that is the heart and soul of US Sailing. If we insist on creating seperate organizations (like NAMSA) and not playing ball with US Sailing they are not upset... They say... SURE do you own thing... but don't expect us to be able to serve your needs either.

Respectfully

Mark

Hi John

I suggested that perhaps the qualifiers could be restricted to one of 4 classes of boats as a step towards increasing turnout in areas with a strong one design constituency. Since the calender is full and/or racers have limited time and money the idea is to make the Alter qualifier appealing. Forcing people to choose between their one design class and the open Alter Class does not work.

For instance if the Alter boat is a Hobie 16 then at the usual Hobie regatta which is also the Alter qualifier, the Hobie 16 one design class could be broadend to include those level rated boats P16, N5.0's etc... score them on portmouth and designate the winner. If you sail a different sized boat... your turn will come around in a year or so.

This solution works in regions where one design fleets are active.... If the area is primarily racing on Portsmouth, I agree with you that this solution would limit participation.

I am not convinced that this solution is worthwhile either.

Take Care

Mark

Hi Mark -

In the case of this year's Qualifier (at least in Area D), you don't have to choose between your one-design class or open Portsmouth. You can do both. It's just a question of me sitting in front of my laptop a little longer while everyone else is drinking beer and discussing skirt length.

Your idea would be useful is designing a multihull ladder, though - other folks have suggested something similar. Looks like that will be one of my next pursuits based on the amout of e-mail from sailors in this Area. Hmmm.

Thanks again -

John

Mark,

It was John Williams in an earlier post who said that the reason the Alter Cup was no longer a championship was because of the petitions. And I posted in response that I had never heard that before -- US Sailing gave me the same reason you stated -- too many championships, too hard to market and confusing for the media. I think Rick was just going with what John said, and I am not sure that is correct.

John,

I think your plan will work great at Clearwater.

Just thinking, if we could establish a ladder program using the open classes at several other events during the season, maybe that could help to boost US Sailing membership, too. People will start thinking in terms of "This regatta is not just the Cakewalk Regatta, it is also a stepping stone to the National Multihull Championship." And maybe having a points system for all these preliminary ladder regattas would give people not only more incentive to join US Sailing but also to go to as many of the designated ladder-step regattas as possible, because the finalists will be chosen to go on to the Alter Cup Qualifier based upon their accumulated points over the season. Very similar to what the Hobies used to do with their points system to get to their National Championships. (This would also solve the problem of the areas being so large, because there could be ladder events throughout the entire area, accessible to everyone.)

I know NAMSA would be happy to help do the work to make this happen, because one of NAMSA's primary goals is to help the Multihull Council implement ideas that the Council is basically impotent to act upon within the US Sailing structure.

Wow, you are going to go to that US Sailing meeting armed with more information than any other Area Rep! Be careful, you might get elected to a higher position, and we need you doing what you are doing right now.

Hi John

We conducted the Alter qualifier at the annual Cambridge regatta several years ago. This is a monohull dinghy and cat regatta with about 120 boats on the water that year. We had over 30 boats racing and at least 20 of them were US SAiling members and qualified for the Alter cup. John Matzner scored the single start as, Portsmouth 16's. Portsmouth Open, and Alter Cup. I believe Chris Brown won that year. Your plan should work well.

The feedback that I recieved was the following.

1) Not enough wind... The Chesapeak in the summer was too dicy , wind wise to award a major championship.

2) Not enough flexability with setting up the race course. The yacht club was committed to ABC courses at the time and so the tactical decisions were limited.

Both were valid critiques.

Two schools of thought emerged:

Participation is great and should be emphasized!..Lots of sailors competed who would not have bothered to travel to a small Alter qualifier. Some joined US Sailing who through apathy had not gotten around to it.

The other school is that elite racing should be emphasized. What was the point of a big turnout?... The handful of serious teams were at the top of the standings and would have competed anyway at a smaller Alter qualifier even!. Small competive fleets let you get lots of racing in without having to wait for the slow guys. After all, Its not about the party.

My take home is that unless you can make the Alter event a stand alone fun event...(Sounds like your plans at Clearwater Sailing) most sailors don't care about competing for the slot and will not travel for it.. The top flight sailors who do care will go racing and so be it that its a small regatta. Mark Santorelli is running Area C at Trixie's Landing on the Barnegat Bay in NJ the following weekend. I expect several F18HT sailors, Several H17 sailors, 2 to 4 H16 racers and one to three I20 teams to compete. Mark does a spectacular job of PRO and his team of volunteers are fantastic.

Take Care

Mark