Cats for the AC it is... Alinghi must face BMW

The DoG match rules provide legs that stretch miles (13 to 20 miles) - speed will rule and I doubt seriously that this will be a match that trades position often.

Good point on the winches - this is why, if catamarans, they will likely have center pods (moderate air). I disagree on the wheel issue - tillers are all the rage for multihulls and/or match racing boats no matter how large.

The fat guy, as you so eloquently put it, showed up in a cat because based on the intel that they had, they thought NZ was bringing a cat also. My point as to why it was a disgrace, in my humble opinion, is because the TWO teams could not play by the spirit of the rules. While I am sure there are two sides to every story NZ certainly has some of the blame to shoulder. Having said all this, it is distant in the past where it should stay. I just hope history does not repeat itself. Also, my sincere apologies for mistakingly saying Bond instead of Fay. I meant no ill will as it was an accident. By the way, I thank NZ1 was a cool boat too. I still have a copy of a magazine with it on the cover.

That's not what I understand. Fay's monster challenge was well known when the gauntlet was thrown and the American team, who had gotten lazy with establishing a challenger for the next cup, were purposely caught offguard with only 10 months to come up with a boat to rival Fay's monster mono-hull. I'm not real clear on the court battle about the date of the match but the Kiwi attempt was effectively an attempt to

ambush

the cup and the American team realized that, while they were cornered by the Deed, it also didn't exclude them from sailing a multihull.

Two sides to every story I suppose.

My info was based on one of Conners books. Keep mind that it was his story and he can tell it how he pleases, regardless of how accurate. My point is that 1988 was a screwed up cup and wasn't about who the better sailor was but rather, who had the better lawyers, kinda like the one now. Clearly though this is a sore subject for some people so tensions and bashing will continue to arise as they already have on this thread. <img src=

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/> Oh well, lifes too short, lets go sail. <img src=

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At that time, (1988) I was a monohull racer, never considered cats because the only cats I had seen up close were Hobie 16's, being sailed...poorly. But when I saw what Connor was able to do to that mega-mono, with a cat half the size with less than half the crew, well, that's when I really started to consider cats might be a better way to sail.

Maybe this DoG cup will change some other mono-minds to consider cats?

You are just a serious unit Wouter. Ever thought their may be some on this forum that know a bit about sailing and even have inside information through contacts which are not available to the general public.

Back to your internet sailing Wouter. It is safer than sailing in real life isn't it.

Macca, good luck on the VX40s

Ok, then you probably do have your facts right - I thought they knew ahead of time what Fay's boat looked like.

What I don't think the American team should have done at that time is immediately go to court to contest the challenge and start all that mess and they really handled themselves poorly publicly. They screwed up and left themselves unprotected by not finding a challenger quickly after the last AC.

Dude, that's genius, take it one step further and give Larry and Ernie both an A cat and tell them to race.

Bill

Ok, then you probably do have your facts right - I thought they knew ahead of time what Fay's boat looked like.

What I don't think the American team should have done at that time is immediately go to court to contest the challenge and start all that mess and they really handled themselves poorly publicly. They screwed up and left themselves unprotected by not finding a challenger quickly after the last AC.

The way Connor described it was that in meeting with Fay, right after the first court batttle (there were three), Fay announced the beam and water line length of the new monster yacht. Because of the yachts design with the large flair out the beam was astronomical in relation to the other dimensions. Conner was concerned that the only way that was possible was because NZ was building a cat. Keep in mind the design of NZ1 was futuristic if you will for the time. I will be the first to conceed that Conner did his fair share to screw things up by trying to use the DOG to his advantage. Fay tried to fight fire with fire by doing the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right and the whole 88 cup became a fiasco, with the cup changing hands twice in a court room. My original point is that both Fay and Conner lost sight of the spirit of the DOG and made a mochary of the whole thing.

The way Connor described it was that in meeting with Fay, right after the first court batttle (there were three), Fay announced the beam and water line length of the new monster yacht. Because of the yachts design with the large flair out the beam was astronomical in relation to the other dimensions. Conner was concerned that the only way that was possible was because NZ was building a cat. Keep in mind the design of NZ1 was futuristic if you will for the time. I will be the first to conceed that Conner did his fair share to screw things up by trying to use the DOG to his advantage. Fay tried to fight fire with fire by doing the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right and the whole 88 cup became a fiasco, with the cup changing hands twice in a court room. My original point is that both Fay and Conner lost sight of the spirit of the DOG and made a mochary of the whole thing.

The whole thing about this challenge was the realization that within the DOG was the 90 day rule - somebody issues a challenge and you must respond in 90 days. So Fay showing up with a monster boat saying let's race was a sure bet because nobody could respond to that kind of challenge in 90 days. Connor going to court was a necessity to have any kind of race/chance, for simply no other reason than to buy time. The big screw up on Connors part was not quickly nailing down the specifics after the previous cup as was usually done to avoid this kind of thing. So going to court up front was the only real way to avoid simply handing the Cup over IMO. I don't believe that Fay ever desired a fair race or a race at all - the whole thing was designed to simply move the Cup. During the AC when the Cup was won back from AUS - after NZ was eliminated in the challenger series they threw their support and knowledge behind AUS, the defender. Tradition had been for the challengers to offer that aid to the challenger that ultimately won. When asked about this the answer was that it in their best interest because it would be easier to compete and get the Cup in AUS than in US. Logical, not traditional, and the intent was shown even then that the goal was get the Cup in any way.

The fun thing about that whole court battle was the alternating support of

tradition

and

Deed of Gift

. Keep in mind that at that point tradition was to agree to time, have the challengers run off, then have the big match race. Fay's challenge was strictly Deed Of Gift - I've got a boat you must race me in 90 days.

That Connor's team looked at the Deed and saw that a cat was possible I think was a stroke of genius - certainly as outside the box as Fay's boat given the usual institutional dislike for multis, especially at the time (there is FAR more acceptance of multis now). In the end it was fight an outside of the box challenge with an outside of the box defense. Although we always talk about how it should be performance on the course that determines the winner, the reality to this kind of racing and just about any kind of racing IMO is the engineering side, how to get the edge, and if possible how to get the

unfair advantage

. This even happens in OD - if manifests itself in obsessive boat prep, but it's being done to either secure an advantage or at least keep up with those that are perceived to have the advantage. In this case, both teams were engaged in the engineering for the unfair advantage to the extreme - there is no doubt that was Fay's intent, and there is no doubt it was Connor's intent in his response.

Of course, once the cat option came up and Fay was locked into his challenging design, he became all about tradition (the very thing he had been bucking all along) in the court battles. And he went to court just as hard as Connor did. Again, it was fun to watch both sides flip between tradition and DOG.

With the court case still pending, and the potential outcome coming down to the definition of the word

match

in match racing (Fay's court gambit) - the race in my mind probably didn't show anywhere near the potential of either boat. Fay's only hope was that it would be such a drubbing that the court would throw it all out and award him the Cup. Connor's hope was that he beat Fay but not by so much that the same thing would happen.

So, depending on who's side you identify with, either party in this could be the villain or the hero. There was as much (maybe more) match racing in court as there was on the water. I think both camps played both hero and villain, but for me this one of the most interesting cups, if for nothing else that two very different approaches to race boats were up front in everybody's face. Certainly the 12 meters were past their day, and the new designs for the AC boats were absolutely sped up by this little skirmish.

That court battle was about the boats, the deed, tradition. The current court battle just seems a pissing match, and few people seem to think that Bertarelli has acted in the best interest of the competition. But I'm happy it will end up in multis, at least this time. I hope they spend some attention on the boat handling aspect of things, I've always wondered what it could mean to cats were thrown into an arena that put more emphasis on the maneuverability - could be something there we can all benefit from.

Anyway, that's my take... But I'm also the person who actually enjoyed watching Penske's

stock blocks

walk away from everybody at the Indy 500...

Everybody new from day one. Connors has to live with losing it for the first time because he did not cover...what is it with match racers??! and the only reason he got it back was because he bought Bouzaid sails (kiwi) from America 2 I think and then he cheated ( called Kiwis cheats for making a Plastic 12 metre) with a cat and then told Bruce Farr he was an

F

ing loser and his boat was a dog on live TV.
A scurrilous fellow who would say anything in a book trying to make himself sound okay....One of sailings low moments...actually a whole lot of them.

Wow. Perspective certainly has an interesting affect on reality.

Absolutely not saying that you're right or wrong, but I didn't need to look at your info to know where you live... <img src=

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Mike

I can't help but notice a pattern that has developed. While I feel both parties made mistakes, Fay supporters seem to think he is rightous and did no wrong, and that it all was Conners fault. As I said in an earlier post, the mud slinging would soon begin. But I will caution, some people are starting to sound like sore losers.

Yes, I sure am a partizan Kiwi. : )
To be clear about Fay..he is a creap. He is an

investment banker

rogue who fled the country when the law started to catch up with him and took Irish citizenship because there was no extradition treaty.

But he did initiate a wonderful challenge which dreamt big. There is so little that has a purity about it these days and that boat challenge had that.

Where did that cat defense leave the NYYC?

They are no longer even also rans at the level of AC, too weak to even turn up for the fight. Fat Boy did them no favours. Do they actually sail boats? Who would know?

Well, I can tell you first hand that NYYC has extremely active sailing programs. A quick internet search will show you that.

The folks that I've spent time with strangely have extremely low affinity for bringing the cup back. It could be that I'm not talking to the right people, but the general sense is, the cost of it now is so over the top that their efforts are better spent elsewhere.

When you think about it, $100 million can buy 100, million dollar boats. Wouldn't that be a cool thing to do every four years?

Mike

It is actually the other way around. It is the NYYC that did Conner no favours. They disowned him after he lost to Bond. On a side note, I wonder what the cup would be like today if Conner had not started using a two boat campaign that now every team uses. Just a heads up run what you brung type event. I guess that is part of why the cup stayed in the US for so long.

This picture from SA is just priceless, no A's or F18s, just two rich kids fighting it out in Optis:

Perfect, only one problem, the Opti is not big enough to hold their Ego's! <img src=

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Two problems. The IODA is Category A unless special provisions are made with ISAF permission.

Sorry, I should have tried harder to resist...

Mike

America's Cup row set to go back to court Source: Reuters/Yahoo
By Mark Ledsom

BERNE, Switzerland (Reuters) - Holders Alinghi are preparing to go back to court after again failing to reach agreement with rivals BMW Oracle over the timing of the next America's Cup.

The Swiss and American teams held a meeting at Alinghi's Geneva nautical society (SNG) base on Wednesday but were unable to agree on a date for staging the one-off series ordered by a New York judge in November.

BMW Oracle are sticking to their proposal of having the race in October 2008 while we maintain that it should not be before May 2009,

Alinghi's chief legal adviser Lucien Masmejan told Reuters after the meeting.

We are willing to have a last attempt at negotiations in the next two or three days but we will also be instructing our lawyers as it seems more likely that the matter will have to be decided in court.

New York State Supreme Court Judge Herman Cahn last week threw out a request from Alinghi that he reconsider his November ruling.

Cahn's decision recognized BMW Oracle as the legitimate challengers for the next edition of world yachting's biggest prize rather than the Spanish yacht club CNEV favored by Alinghi.

CUP RULES

Since Alinghi and BMW Oracle were unable to agree on the format of the competition they must now contest a best-of-three series as dictated in the America's Cup rules, known as the Deed of Gift.

The eventual winner will then have the right to organise the subsequent America's Cup.

Under the rules of the best-of-three series, Alinghi can choose the location of their match-up with BMW Oracle, but the American team can name the type of boat to be used.

BMW Oracle has said it will opt for large catamarans prompting Alinghi to insist on more time to design and build a boat.

The Swiss team, backed by biotechnology billionaire Ernesto Bertarelli, also claim that BMW Oracle are reneging on an informal agreement to hold the race at least 10 months after the final court ruling.

We are in favours of racing in July 2009 and we still think that is the best time for racing in Europe,

Masmejan said on Wednesday.

But we have accepted that they have the right to choose any date after May 2009.

The fact that they are still sticking to October of this year in the full knowledge that we cannot have a boat ready in that time shows they are willing to win the Cup without any regard for how they win it or the fairness of the competition."

(Editing by Ken Ferris)

It's killing me how Alinghi refuses to come to the table on this. Frankly, I don't think they have any choice to any other date and that the courts will second that notion especially given the number of times BMW tried to offer up several date options up until the last motion by Alinghi. BMW did indicate going into these negotiations that if the date was going to move that Alinghi would have to barter with something...location of the event, parameters of the event like a max wind speed, different race series (than the three specified in the deed). Why won't Alinghi negotiate ANYTHING?

In my opinion, Alinghi is trying desperately to get the event in Valencia in 2009 to try and meet some contractual obligations they made when the boofed this whole thing up in the beginning.

Grant Dalton, of Team New Zealand had this to say yesterday:

The latest say that both teams will be using large trimarans. American boat is said to be close to completion in anacortes washington, while the swiss boat is designed and in construction in multiplast .

Anybody else see this quote?

It is possible that Bertarelli will tell the San Francisco-based team to send a courier for the trophy as he has no intention of being bullied into a match in October.

Lol, what would that be like?

F it, you take it!

My 2.5 year old little girl behaves better than this!
and cuter too <img src=

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Any information about the boats is welcome. We NEED to know more about them. I guess they will race on scaled up Open 60s with rigid wings, possibly with a raised central hull.

Too bad there's no time to develop a scaled up Hydroptére with a rigid wing...

ALLL that is very, very, top secret at the moment. I wouldn't expect to hear anything until we get to a point where each team is committed to a particular design philosophy...perhaps 4 months from the event?

First we have to hear the ruling from Cahn about the date - they are supposed to have a hearing next week and hopefully the ruling will follow shortly thereafter.

Unless Multiplast has moved to Switzerland, this has to be wrong.

He probably means Decision, builders of the last Alinghi IACCs.

From XSRacing:

Don't Send A Monohuller to do a Multihuller's Job

Saturday - March 29 2008 - 0830 PST - Here is a press release about Foncia being capsized today by the Alinghi Team. By the account from Ed Baird, it's obvious that Ed does not have a clue about multihulls. He describes the incident as if it was 'out of their hands' when they capsized in just over 20 knots of wind. Don't tell the multihull skippers who cross the oceans that their Open 60 tris can't stay upright in 20 knots...it may scare them from ever sailing again!

This is not the only report of multihulls capsizing with beginners at the helm. One source described the Extreme 40 capsizes like watching Lasers sailing downwind in 30 knots of wind. We have had numerous other reports from multihull 'teachers' trying to teach the monohull rock stars how to sail a multihull, with 'upside down' results. If they continue trying to teach rookie's how to sail 90-foot multihulls, this could be an exciting America's Cup after all! Here is the press release from the Alinghi Team:

Foncia capsizes off Lorient - Alinghi crew safe 2008-03-29 AT 11:30 this morning, in 20 plus knots and a lumpy Atlantic swell, the 60ft trimaran Foncia capsized off Lorient with Alinghi sailors onboard. Of the 10 crew onboard, Piet van Niekerk and Francesco Rapetti were airlifted to hospital, both are safe and with no serious injuries. The rest of the crew along with consultant Alain Gautier were involved in securing the boat and towing it ashore, the sailors are shaken but unhurt.

Ed Baird, who was onboard, provides some insight into what happened:

As we were bearing away, always the highest risk situation on a multi-hull, both the leeward and the central hull dug into the water and the rudders came out. From then it was out of our hands and we capsized forwards. As the mast hit the water, it broke, followed by the rear beam.

He continues:

The crew reacted very quickly in getting everyone back on board, doing a head count and checking injuries before calling for help and beginning to secure the boat.

Foncia is currently being towed into the harbour upside down to be craned out and assessed for damage.

We have all been through crashes and capsizes before, this is all part of the sport,

says Ed Baird, adding

however this is a temporary situation with Foncia and is not our equipment, so it is even more disappointing to us that we are involved in damaging someone else's gear. We have learned a valuable lesson here and now must get to work to fix things up for Alain [Gautier].

We discussed bad PR earlier, and breaking an ORMA60 is pretty bad PR in my opinion: http://www.xsracing.org/alertdetail.php?alt_id=4345