righting
bag is? <img src=
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and a Pitchpole = a trip around the world, not just the forestay
To me BMW-Oracle is just another obscenely rich syndicate that thinks that you can just outspend your competition and expect to come out on top. To me, that is not interesting.
Dude - it's the America's Cup. Everybody out there (who is actually a contender) is really competing for the title of
I've got the biggest pile of money to burn
and the perceived status that goes with it - if you think any of the syndicates involved is any different you're sadly mistaken. Some are certainly more effective than others, but in the end they're all playing the
mine's bigger
game. That we get to watch a sailboat race of some kind is a side effect.
It is always satisfying to see the
under dogs
win, but they came to the game with very deep pockets too.
I laugh at the money stuff, enjoy the race, and root for the team closest to being the home team. Home team or not, I find myself rooting for whichever team falls behind in any given race and marvel when they get back in the hunt, and appreciate their effort.
Also, the Fossett thing has been beaten to death, but to compare Ellison with Fossett is not even close to being correct.
Someone will ask this question, it might as well be me.
Why not a proven design, but bigger? Pardon my ignorance, but an Extreme 40, to me, looks like a big I-20. So why not a 90' version of the same?
Boats dont scale like that Pete. Aero and hydrodynamics scale differently, and the loads scale like crazy with increased size. E.g. banana foils and foiling C cats are not fast compared to the top boats, but a foiling moth are really fast compared to a scow moth.
If you go back to the '88 challenge, the USA team buildt what might be considered a scaled up C cat for the cup. But what they really did was get the best C-cat brains and put them in a room with some really good engineers and builders (Morelli, Rutan etc). They picked the best aspects from the boats they knew and adapted this to the new platform.
Well <img src=
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/>. . . that's what I meant. The simplest boat should have an advantage though. More strings to pull, more strings to break. More adjustments to make, more adjustments to make poorly.
Foils. Bannana gilhickies. All stuff to get wrong and fail at the worst possible moment.
And while were in cat' ecstacy, who will be the first to blow a tack in AC competition? Who will be the first to pitch-pole?
I really, really, hope we dont see any catastrophic failures in this match. That would be really, really, bad PR for multihulls. It dont matter how many monos have broken their masts, lost their keels, folded in the middle, almost sunk when heeling over etc. No catastrophic failures please!
The mono world still have their ideas about non tactical, non safe, non tacking, non.. whatever multihulls. We want to see exciting, close and tactical racing with no failures <img src=
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I think 4 (two complete sets) of high aspect dagger boards failed catastrophically last week end.
Three Points
- It would not surprise me to not see a lot of downwind sail area added to these boats. They're going to be sailing such crazy hot angles they will be developing a TON of apparent wind. Due to that, I would not be surprised to see solid wing masts.
- BMWO had TONS of speed but kept getting themselves into terrible starts. They ended up changing the rudder for better maneuverability (to get out of the piles of sh*t they were getting put into in prestart) and lost a lot of their speed. I agree with Jake it was a mistake to overload the helm with on-shore duties.
- With regards to failure, I don't know who said it, but someone said,
the best AC boat is the one that falls apart on the way back to the harbor after winning the final race
. Build 'em light enough to survive till the end and that's it.
This is going to be interesting and like NOTHING any of us have seen before. I just hope it does not have the same wreched stench that last catamaran AC had.
- It would not surprise me to not see a lot of downwind sail area added to these boats. They're going to be sailing such crazy hot angles they will be developing a TON of apparent wind. Due to that, I would not be surprised to see solid wing masts.
- BMWO had TONS of speed but kept getting themselves into terrible starts. They ended up changing the rudder for better maneuverability (to get out of the piles of sh*t they were getting put into in prestart) and lost a lot of their speed. I agree with Jake it was a mistake to overload the helm with on-shore duties.
- With regards to failure, I don't know who said it, but someone said,
the best AC boat is the one that falls apart on the way back to the harbor after winning the final race
. Build 'em light enough to survive till the end and that's it.
This is going to be interesting and like NOTHING any of us have seen before. I just hope it does not have the same wreched stench that last catamaran AC had.
Agree on every point but the solid wing sail. Perhaps I'm wrong and maybe they are well planning such a monster but to boost downwind speed additional headsails would be needed and I question the reliability of building such a wing vs. the speed...well...what kind of speed difference IS there between a soft and rigid wing sail? What difference did the C cats experience....man, that would be something - a 90' cat with a rigid wing...whoooo.
Well, it was enough that the AC Cat development teams of the 80's had soft and hard rigged boats... When it came time to choose they picked the bigger of the two guns. I'll have to pull my book on the subject out and see what they said a/b the decision. Was it really speed or did they just want to show off?? <img src=
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Also, think from a tech stand point... we've come a LONG way since that last AC cat.
Ben Hall was at GYC with his
Wing
. I didn't notice a performance difference on Sunday. However, because of the high winds on Saturday, he left the top section off. That was slower downwind, imo.
No you can't because it has not been tested against its equal rivals yet.
We had the same amount of rumours about playstation back in the day but the Ollier cats made short work of that.
Lets face it Macca you don't know either (as no-one does) and are just guessing.
Wouter
My opinion (based on information recieved from credible sources, unlike your web opinion) is that the design is exceptional and shows a good deal of innovation compared to the current benchmark designs.
I am flying to LA tomorrow and then off to San Fran for a few weeks, but maybe I will have to keep guessing...
Interesting to us cat sailors from a technical point of view
But... what we really want is to see is a high speed, gear changing, position changing race!
The public can't really see the speed on the TV set. .. So what if they do 20 miles in an hour....
I hope that these big cats are nimble...(but don't have much hope)... I think they will be strait line speed demons.
Tack's and Gibes will be rare! Boat to Boat dueling could be very very rare... especially if one has a speed advantage.
I think the ICCC showed the potential of a match race with cats and had a decent amount of lead changes.
The VX 40's looked awesome and very nimble in the in port racing in Baltimore.
I think something on these lines would be best for our sport.
Put all teams in F18's and see who is the real winner!
They still have the pre-start manouvers to consider, and they both know that the race can be won or lost there. I think we will see plenty nimble. I just hope one team dont have a speed advantage so we get to see some real match racing.
I've used a very complicated formula to decide who to root for. I look at Woooooter's post and see who he backs, that would mean that's the a$$hat, so I then support the other.
Wouter do you practice being such a tool? I'll give you this, your consistent.
Todd
Wouter do you practice being such a tool? I'll give you this, your consistent.
Todd
Thanks Todd, I needed a laugh!!!
I wonder if they'll have trapezes? Probably not, but six guys hanging off the side of the boat in a blow? That would be cool.
Wouldn't crashes make the AC a bit more interesting to the general puclic? I think a majority of people watch Nascar just for the wrecks. With EXTREME everything nowdays I think a small element of danger would add some appeal for alot of people.
Crashes would result in 20 secs of interest, and 20 years of backtalk about how dangerous, unseaworthy, prone to breakage etc. multihulls are. Not good.
These boats will probably have some monster winches, so they will need at least some of the crew on the grinders. Even if they use hydraulics someone will have to pump the pressure up. Will probably have wheels instead of tillers as well, so helmsman also sits in. Trapeezes would probably be a disadvantage all over for boats of this size. Slower manouvering, higher risk for messing up etc etc.
good ol PILE ON!!!! if it pitchpoled with 6 dudes on the wire
<img src=
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<img src=
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Thats kinda what I was thinking.
Could we really loose any more credit within the mono community though? They already view multi's as inferior to thier boats, what's to lose? It the general public you want to get interested. Those that still have a plyable opinion and aren't set in stone as to what they want. Obviously what we're doing isn't raking in the numbers.
Bertarelli has a LOT of success racing multi campaigns.
Naive to think he won't be up to speed so to speak.
Does not matter about the money involved here, it is all about what media coverage these races (only three) does for multi racing.
The
tactics
argument does not wash here as the last AC final saw NO tactical sense whatsoever. The NZ tactician was remedial at best.
If they can get these boats on screen in 15/20 knots televised yacht racing will never be the same.
There will be a lot of Frenchmen doing summersaults today.
Also, it is clear to me that what is really in play here is personality clashes between Lary, Ernesto, Brad and Russell.
How nasty is the split between the Kiwi pair? and how bad does Russell want to beat the
Swiss
pair?
This should wind up into a really nasty
catfight
Coutts is launching the 70 foot class next year so he will be a happy camper at about now......but if Ernesto beats him on the water.....
annnnnd where are Ashby and Bundock today?....never mind tired old mono sailors, I know who I would be paying the big cheque to.
What is the timing relative to china?
Could the top guys pull of their campaign and do a cup campaign at the same time...
We know where the pay checks will come from.
I imagine Smyth is at the top of someone's list, eh?
I was wondering if either team had hired Randy yet... <img src=
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He was in Houston not too long ago for a project boat of a friend of mines. He also joined us at our club party. He didn't say anything then, but again, this deal was still in court too. I bet somebody is trying to snag him up.
Well, it was enough that the AC Cat development teams of the 80's had soft and hard rigged boats... When it came time to choose they picked the bigger of the two guns. I'll have to pull my book on the subject out and see what they said a/b the decision. Was it really speed or did they just want to show off?? <img src=
alt=
/>
Also, think from a tech stand point... we've come a LONG way since that last AC cat.
Lets not forget also that the 88 cup was a disgrace due to a the legal battle (such as here) and second the races where not even close. That cat walked all over Bonds boat like an A cat to an Island Packet. This race of course will be cat against cat, a much fairer fight. I too am routig for BMW for two reasons. One because Bertelli has deliberatly in my opinion screwed up the AC, and secondly because I support my country in any sporting event when competeing against other countries.
/quote]
Lets not forget also that the 88 cup was a disgrace due to a the legal battle (such as here) and second the races where not even close. That cat walked all over Bonds boat like an A cat to an Island Packet. This race of course will be cat against cat, a much fairer fight. I too am routig for BMW for two reasons. One because Bertelli has deliberatly in my opinion screwed up the AC, and secondly because I support my country in any sporting event when competeing against other countries.
Wasn't Bond it was a Kiwi and the only disgrace was that the fat guy did not turn up in a sloop and race a match. The
Big Boat
was the fastest mono around an Americas Cup course ever and represented the beginning of all of the outrageous designs we attempt today. It was a great and outrageous dream that wimps just did not turn up to.
Of course the cat won....that is why we all sail them right?
Well, this is a pretty cool birthday present!
I echo others here, let's hope this goes well and isn't seen as another waste of time before getting back to
proper
boats for the AC.
Whether or not this helps the Olympic situation remains to be seen, IMO.
Mike
Lets not forget also that the 88 cup was a disgrace due to a the legal battle (such as here) and second the races where not even close. That cat walked all over Bonds boat like an A cat to an Island Packet. This race of course will be cat against cat, a much fairer fight. I too am routig for BMW for two reasons. One because Bertelli has deliberatly in my opinion screwed up the AC, and secondly because I support my country in any sporting event when competeing against other countries.
Wasn't Bond it was a Kiwi and the only disgrace was that the fat guy did not turn up in a sloop and race a match. The
Big Boat
was the fastest mono around an Americas Cup course ever and represented the beginning of all of the outrageous designs we attempt today. It was a great and outrageous dream that wimps just did not turn up to.
Of course the cat won....that is why we all sail them right?
The fat guy, as you so eloquently put it, showed up in a cat because based on the intel that they had, they thought NZ was bringing a cat also. My point as to why it was a disgrace, in my humble opinion, is because the TWO teams could not play by the spirit of the rules. While I am sure there are two sides to every story NZ certainly has some of the blame to shoulder. Having said all this, it is distant in the past where it should stay. I just hope history does not repeat itself. Also, my sincere apologies for mistakingly saying Bond instead of Fay. I meant no ill will as it was an accident. By the way, I thank NZ1 was a cool boat too. I still have a copy of a magazine with it on the cover.