Racing C 24s against J 80s at the leeward mark during a St Pete NOOD was a bit confusion filled; the 24s were coming in on water-fire, and the J 80s were all lined up drifting down almost by the lee in 15 knts of breeze. We were recovering a lost halyard on the screacher when we gybed, so we came into the circle on the outside, just behind Raul on I Fly, coming into the J 80 parade on port. Since he and his daughter were clicking off about fifteen knots, and rounding upwind, the J 80s made sure they took no wide turns:-) I Fly flew out ahead of the gaggle of J 80s, and Twain came in mid - fleet. Had to keep driving off right to run around the end of J 80s. Raul was gone again.
If you read this far ...try http://www.cork.org/
I feel for you though, sometimes it's really hard to anticipate their (lack of) reaction.
Mike
Please Explain how it could be bad for him if he had rights and wasn't doing anything wrong, unless you mean getting hit by a scow on an A. That would probably suck.
Damage always, most definitely, sucks. It also opens the door for a RRS 14 protest (yes, the rule where a ROW boat CAN be penalized for collision with damage). We all know that anything can (and does) happen in the room, even when the judges aren’t biased and think they have a slam dunk solution.
It’s not about giving anyone else a pass. I’ve witnessed (and actually prevented) an attempt to take action against an entire fleet of cats due to the perceived actions of three boats (the threatened action was to uninvited the fleet ever again). I lost a ton of respect for several officials that day (also renewed my faith in a couple).
I’m not saying it’s right, or OK, but especially when we’re guests at someone else’s party, we have to be careful, or risk not being asked to come back. I know that’s probably too much for some folks here to wrap their heads around, and I’ve said too much about this already, so I’ll leave it there.
Rick White wrote about it many moons ago… SLOW DOWN TO WIN!!!
Mike
no damage, btw. It was a love tap.
I got in some hot water one time at the Reggae regatta one time at the A mark. Managed to sneak in a short tack right at the layline about 3 feet in front of a J24 just outside the at the time 2-BL circle. He was inches off my rear beam and yelling at me the whole time even though I was in the clear. No contact was ever made and after we turned the mark we sped away quite easily.
The guy came up to me later and apologized and said that I was in my rights to do that but he was in the lead of his fleet for the first time of the day and his temper was hot.
That same regatta we were on the same course as the Opti fleet and dear god you've never known terror like seeing dozens of Optis lined up like ducks during their start across the line you're coming downwind in 15 knots to finish at. I thought for sure a kid was going to die that day.
That's because you're not a catsailor... <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
Jeff, take us through your NE circuit, and list the events with the other classes on each circle, starting order, types of courses/number of laps vs. the other boats, pros/cons and any other details that might help us get an idea of what works well (and what doesn't).
Mike
Sticking to the multi-class events that we don't run:
Wickford Regatta: We will likely be on a course with 505s and A-cats. We will sail WL courses, and will likely have a longer weather mark than the 505s. We sail with the 505s a lot, and it works fine. One thing to remember with the 505s is they have very different downwind modes and angles depending on the breeze and whether they are sit-running or wiring
Newport Regatta: We typically are on a course with 49ers, FX, VXone, A cats. I believe we have all sailed the same course in the past, and usually F18s start first. The VXone are a fair bit slower, but it is a small fleet and they haven't been a problem. They sail similar angles downwind which is nice. The 49ers also sail very similar angles which makes things easy. They also talk a lot of smack, but can't back it up with speed!
Hyannis: We share a course with J22s. They use a shorter weather mark and we start first. The angle and speed are very different, so there shouldn't be much interaction (although there has been a collision in the past).
HPDO: In the past we have shared with Viper 640s and K6s. Interacting with the Vipers can be tough because it is a very large fleet and they are just fast enough to be annoying. WIth a J22 you just cruise past, no worries. Vipers sail high enough angles and are almost fast enough to get in the way. We've had some crazy finishes at HPDO.
Overall, I think it is easy to share courses with boats that are either very similar speed and sailing style (49er) or very different (J22). In either case, the interaction is fairly predictable. It's when you have something like a Viper that is in between is when things are slightly more difficult. That said, the Viper guys are a lot of fun and I don't mind sharing with them. I would personally rather share a course with a 49er than a Hobie 16 because the speeds and angles are much closer.
I will say, the rules knowledge in parts of our fleet is the lowest of any I have raced in, which can be detrimental when racing in bigger events.
If there is a possibility that injury or damage will result in a claim (insurance, legal, personal, or otherwise), then it is absolutely vital to have a protest hearing. Although the protest committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS prescription 67(b)), responsibility for damages is based on fault as determined by the rules (see USS prescription 67(c)). Without a finding of facts from a protest hearing, insurance companies (and the courts) are unable to determine fault. Even with the facts, they are notoriously bad at applying the rules, so PC has to do that too.
If you think Protest Committee made a mistake in conducting the hearing or in applying the rules, then file an appeal. If you think the Appeals Committee got it wrong (and yes, I've seen it happen), appeal to a higher authority.
There are times when, for the sake of getting along, it's best to just let things slide. On the other hand, one sometimes needs to protest, even if it's unpopular. Remember the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules, which states
competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce
.
I once protested a boat racing one-design in a different fleet. The other skipper was very upset and couldn't understand why I protested, as I had nothing to gain by it. He yelled and complained (as did some of his other fleet members) until I finally asked him
do you really think it's ok to break the rules, just because the other boat is in a different fleet?
.
If an event organizer threatened to exclude my fleet because we enforced the rules, then I suspect that's an event we would not attend again anyway.
Regards,
Eric
dear lord, I 'pologize...for starting this....pigmies in new guinny'.
If there is a possibility that injury or damage will result in a claim (insurance, legal, personal, or otherwise), then it is absolutely vital to have a protest hearing. Although the protest committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS prescription 67(b)), responsibility for damages is based on fault as determined by the rules (see USS prescription 67(c)). Without a finding of facts from a protest hearing, insurance companies (and the courts) are unable to determine fault. Even with the facts, they are notoriously bad at applying the rules, so PC has to do that too.
If you think Protest Committee made a mistake in conducting the hearing or in applying the rules, then file an appeal. If you think the Appeals Committee got it wrong (and yes, I've seen it happen), appeal to a higher authority.
There are times when, for the sake of getting along, it's best to just let things slide. On the other hand, one sometimes needs to protest, even if it's unpopular. Remember the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules, which states
competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce
.
I once protested a boat racing one-design in a different fleet. The other skipper was very upset and couldn't understand why I protested, as I had nothing to gain by it. He yelled and complained (as did some of his other fleet members) until I finally asked him
do you really think it's ok to break the rules, just because the other boat is in a different fleet?
.
If an event organizer threatened to exclude my fleet because we enforced the rules, then I suspect that's an event we would not attend again anyway.
Regards,
Eric
Eric,
What do you do when time to file a protest has long since expired (still same day) and there was damage on the race course? Out of country btw, so international jury that has other things on their mind.
I agree with everything that Jeff has said. We regularly share courses with A-Cat's and other spinnaker beach cats, no issues. 505's are generally fine, but haven't had any encounters where we are both wired up downwind. It's the boats that are in-between a J/24, 22 etc. and us in speed that are an issue (larger trimarans and J/70's fall into this category). All manageable with some planning and rules knowledge. The lack of basic rules knowledge, even at the pointy end of the F18 fleet is appalling, and we really need to correct this as a fleet going forward.
As to Annapolis to Oxford, it's an event I do because of the format and no other reason. We had a sizable fleet of beach cats turn out last year, and you know some of the issues that prevailed. If it were up to me, NASS wouldn't take entries for boats without a spinnaker (i.e old Prindles and Hobies that show up for one event a year), for liability issues, but I am also torn because the more boats the better. I think getting some of these teams onto a more modern platform as crew would be beneficial to all. As to plucking monohull sailors into our fleet, I think we've managed to pick up one or 2 in the past 3 years of A to O's. Most of the monohulls don't respect our rights as racing vessels on the course, and few come up and talk after the race. There are some really cool guys on the faster boats, and I would like to make our boat available for rides after the race ends.
Any other thoughts on how to get more people in the fleet? What events are popular and why?
ummm.. because only good sailors sail boats with spinakers????
If the Div 11 Hobie 16 fleet showed up for the race... you would be hard pressed to save your time.
FYI... the Maryland Gov Cup (75 mile point to point) was the largest race on the bay when the guys who race once a year showed up... 1/2 of the event were recreational sailors.
Just because these new entries ...are not racers... does not mean that they are not good sailors...
Liability Issues... What are you talking about? Your liability... their liability or the OA and RC liability...
All skippers are responsible for their boats and crews on the water. Period... racing, cruising or anchoring.
The OA is not going to discriminate against one class of boats with special rules.. either beachcats race... or they don't race.
We have some common sense and informal guidelines in place that are applied at the fleet level for the new racers... We are not in the business of denying anyone entry. (hell our worst upsets involved experienced racers suffering serious injury)
Damage alone does not relieve a boat from her responsibilities to inform the protestee or to file, but there are some mitigating factors.
If the damage or injury is obvious to both boats involved, the protestor does not have to hail
protest
nor fly a flag, but she must still attempt to inform the other boat within the protest time limit. See RRS 61.1(a)(4).
The protestor still needs to file within the time limit, but if there is a good reason to extend the time, the protest committee must do so. See RRS 61.3.
Even if a boat's protest is invalid, the protest committee itself may file a protest if it learns of an incident that may have resulted in injury or serious damage. See RRS 60.3(a)(1).
So, if you were involved in an incident that resulted in injury (even minor injury), or serious damage (serious enough to require repair), but file after the time limit expires, you still have a couple of options. The first one is to request that the protest time limit be extended. If you made a good faith effort to deliver your protest within the time limit, but were prevented by circumstances beyond your control, then Protest Committee must extend the limit. Good reasons include taking injured crew to receive medical attention, or keeping a damaged boat from foundering. It does not include taking time to pack up and cover your boat, nor for stopping to take a shower and change clothes.
If you didn't properly inform the other boat, or can't get the time limit extended (or if your protest is invalid for some other reason), you can still request the Protest Committee to protest under rule 60.3(a)(1). If the damage is severe, or there is evidence of injury, a good PC will file its own protest and have the hearing.
I hope that helps,
Eric
Mark,
Its lack of information and dispersal of safety requirements for distance races to new teams, because the organizing authority assumes the big boats are following Chesapeake PHRF rules and the small boats CRAC rules. CRAC is a bit less formal...
As to saving time, that is a very bold statement to make when racing under PHRF...F18 rating hasn't changed in years...if you show up with a Shark then we will be afraid.
We want to include everyone, fleet turnout is too small as is, just looking to prevent catastrophe and get banned entirely....is there a reason the gov cup doesn't have a beach cat class??
...
Just because these new entries ...are not racers... does not mean that they are not good sailors...
...
All skippers are responsible for their boats and crews on the water. Period... racing, cruising or anchoring.
...
We have some common sense and informal guidelines in place that are applied at the fleet level for the new racers... We are not in the business of denying anyone entry.
Mark,
Well said, thank you.
I have enough of a problem with a certain monohull class that believes other boats should't be allowed on
their racecourse
. I don't need the same attitude from other cat sailors. The water belongs to all boats, regardless of their hull count or sail plan - and even to boats without sails at all.
To say that a non-spin boat is a hazard because its skipper does not understand spinnaker sailing is baseless and insulting.
- Just because my boat isn't rigged with a chute doesn't mean that I don't understand how a spinnaker changes a boat's sailing angles and speeds. Please don't impugn my intelligence.
- I'm responsible for controlling my boat. You're responsible for controlling yours. As long as we both do that within the rules, the presence or absence of a spinnaker shouldn't affect our safety at all.
To keep the sport of sailboat racing alive, we need to include new sailors - not exclude them.
Sorry for the rant - this is a sore subject for me.
Regards,
Eric
Eric,
Appreciate the protest information.
I apologize if I came across as not inclusive to all sailors, especially as there are some very capable and skilled teams on Hobie 16's, Waves etc.
Background: this race is in open water, and teams have shown up with rigging that is 10+ years old, 30+ year old Prindles, Hobies etc. that have not been thoroughly inspected, suffered gear failure, managed to make it to shore but fail to inform race committee, and then prompt contact with local authorities. That looks bad on our community, but could happen to a well prepared spin boat just as easily.
Another factor to consider in distance racing is elapsed time, sun setting etc.
I'm sorry if I'm overreacting. I sympathize with the safety concerns surrounding open water sailing, and understand the need for well-maintained seaworthy designs with adequate lifesaving and communication equipment.
Nevertheless, I think it's a mistake to equate
rigging that is 10+ years old, 30+ year old . that have not been thoroughly inspected, suffered gear failure, managed to make it to shore but fail to inform race committee
with
boats without a spinnaker
.
Sincerely,
Eric
Eric, I agree with all of your points regarding protests and the rules, and share a lot of your concerns with respect to spin/non-spin. There can be challenges running slower designs on long distances when there's marginal wind...
All, I think that in the case of distance races organized by others, it would behoove us to work in conjunction with the OA. Appoint a cat sailor to be the class captain, run inspections, work with the competitors to ensure basic expectations (safety plan) are met, etc. This could be the one small step that raises us above the rest, or could even save a life...
Mike
Hobie 16 ratings have been set in stone... its a yardstick boat in portsmouth. SCHRS adjusted everything 2 years ago.
Gov Cup... Nobody has ever gotten a fleet together and asked. but Since it's a night race... unmarked fish traps suck... It has been pirated at least three times by single boats.
Mike
...feel free to insert image of lead balloon dropping here...
Mike
Mike
...feel free to insert image of lead balloon dropping here...
Mike
Mike the suggestion is good and makes perfect sense and the lack of response is pretty normal. Heck we can't get people to go to regattas and now we want people to volunteer their time to organize and run inspections. Only the true believers will put their hand up for that and they are a dieing breed my friend.
Thanks Ding. We need to do something to turn the tide, I'm open to suggestions.
The idea that we can just show up and pay to join a regatta puts us at the mercy of other groups' decisions. Easy and painless in the short-term. Not exactly a recipe for long-term success.
Mike
The idea that we can just show up and pay to join a regatta puts us at the mercy of other groups' decisions. Easy and painless in the short-term. Not exactly a recipe for long-term success.
Mike
I guess it depends on what you're looking to get out of said event(s). Out to sail, out to race with friends, global domination of your fleet/region/class, etc.
I had a long response typed up yesterday, but thought better of it and deleted it (spared you all).
With regard to distance races, there seems to be a lot of interest. However as part of the OA, it scares the heck out of us from a support and liability standpoint. I don't think a
your on your own
statement on the SIs is going to go too far in the courtroom if an incident happens. I'm no lawyer, so maybe it would, but I doubt it.
Logistically it would be really tough to ride herd on a fleet stretched out across a 20+ mile leg. With 1-design you have a chance, but with a mixed fleet, forget it.
How do you manage the risk and still let the guys with unknown abilities join in the fun?
Edits... I missed Jeff's response...
Jay: None of the above. Simply being invited back so you have events, period.
All: Jeff presents the real issue, and it's not limited to distance racing. One of the goals of the MRC is to help here, but each of us needs to own a piece of it; otherwise, we'll be branded as leaches (or worse).
Mike
Mike
...feel free to insert image of lead balloon dropping here...
Mike
I'll happily do the inspections...these boats aren't all being launched from the same area, and that is part of the problem. I'm not running all over town on race day to inspect boats when we barely make it to the line on time ourselves.
Gov Cup... Nobody has ever gotten a fleet together and asked. but Since it's a night race... unmarked fish traps suck... It has been pirated at least three times by single boats.
SCHRS is updated yearly, F18 is the yardstick. Portsmouth ratings for catamarans haven't been changed since 2006?, the person responsible is sadly no longer with us...a fair bit has happened in the F18 fleet since then, including but not limited to the advent of wing masts, modern hullshapes that can be driven much harder, longer, more efficient daggerboards, and advances in sail technology. Again, I'm only worried about a Hobie 16 correcting if it is a reach, and then only in certain wind ranges. I'm not saying they aren't fast, safe boats (one hasn't shown up to race this event fyi, they are more than welcome!), IMO better built than a lot of boats out there, but the mere fact that an outdated rating scheme is used makes it tough for them to compete against more modern equipment.
You guys need to get out more... <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
This is an area MRC needs to improve (communication of the following, at a minimum):
The Portsmouth system is handled by a committee, chaired by Carl Reigart. He comes to all of our meetings and begs us to submit data. With this data, numbers can be fixed.
Other members of the current committee include Bob Curry and Jamie Diamond, per the website: http://offshore.ussailing.org/Offsh...
Data is to be submitted directly to US Sailing headquarters (there is a form with the address here): http:/
Data is power. When a Hobie 16 corrects in front, people blame the numbers (except when we beat you to the beach <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> )... But, as Sam notes, the F18 ratings are so out of date that they're probably getting an unfair advantage at this point...
Hope this helps.
Mike
The numbers are only as good as the data. You should ask yourself when was the last time any of your results were submitted your results to the Portsmouth committee?
Was that aimed at me, or in general? I mentioned twice that the system needs new data...
Mike
The system needs data. well that is a problem and solutions are unlikely.
All of the dead boat society are at least 10 years past their last one design race. Data for these boats is garbage in and garbage out. (violates at least one of the assumptions of the Portsmouth system.) These ratings ... right or wrong should be set in stone.
Hobie 16, 17 and 18 are active one designs and the ratings for these boats simply should not change because you have 30 years of data where they have been the most popular class in NA. The boats have not changed... nor should the rating.
F18's and F16s are limited development classes which get faster over time. This is a problem for portsmouth because the boats coding does not reflect which generation of F18 is setting the rating for a race. Bottom line... The current f18's have a soft PN rating
Moreover, F16s don't have a lot of one design racing So when boats do race handicap the quality of the data is less reliable. (violates one of the assumptions of the Portsmouth system. Bottom line.... the PHRF origin for the F16 rating is probably OK because
Finally, the F18 and F16s need to race against a yardstick boat... eg the Hobie 16 around buoys in a 45 minute or so race.
Not many of those races exist in the USA these days. They race one design and their is no yardstick boats to compare them to.
Portsmouth rating for the A Class is just ridiculous because the
A class are unrestricted development and rating A class means taking the current fastest one. Since the fastest ones now are foiling down wind... Your A class rating is just gonna suck.
Nacra Carbon 20s, Marstrom 20s, Flying Tigers are essentially one off boats.. Fleets do not exist... the Rating calculated is for the skipper... not the boat in this circumsance.
The Nacra 17 is racing one design and the best solution will be to PHRF the rating.
Bottom line....The data have to exist ... IE... that is qualified data before you can run the portsmouth system.
Perversely, the fact that the PN table has not changed in years is a feature... right or wrong... the numbers are set in stone so people just deal with it.
The Portsmouth Committee needs to ID the few surviving Handicap regattas that meet the standard assumptions and get their result times to even have a shot at updating the table.
Sending in race data is not the solution right now to portsmouth updates.
This is an area MRC needs to improve (communication of the following, at a minimum):
The Portsmouth system is handled by a committee, chaired by Carl Reigart. He comes to all of our meetings and begs us to submit data. With this data, numbers can be fixed.
Other members of the current committee include Bob Curry and Jamie Diamond, per the website: http://offshore.ussailing.org/Offsh...
Data is to be submitted directly to US Sailing headquarters (there is a form with the address here): http:/
Data is power. When a Hobie 16 corrects in front, people blame the numbers (except when we beat you to the beach <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> )... But, as Sam notes, the F18 ratings are so out of date that they're probably getting an unfair advantage at this point...
Hope this helps.
Mike
Mike, this simply is not going to happen. Even in the best of times when Darline was driving the bus the data was a trickle and was never statistically significant. Any time the numbers were changed they were done with a best guess and good intentions (much like the SCHRS change).
I suggested to Carl years ago that an audit be done comparing the DPN numbers against the existing popular handicap systems (Texel, SCHRS) and make adjustments where the audit indicated and zero was done. Part of moving forward is recognizing what doesn't work and formulating a plan that might. Until that happens we will mark time for another 10 years, point fingers and do nothing!
There isn't a single revelation in any of the recent threads. Waiting for a consensus or depending on a survey is pointless. Choose a direction select a handful of believers and move forward.
Mark...
No data = no fix.
Some data = some fix.
Lots of folks would argue that some improvement is better than none, and most of us accept Portsmouth as an imperfect solution that takes marginal effort.
Personally, I'd have zero problems moving to a different system, but years of debating has resulted in zero support, and more importantly, zero volunteer base to make the sale and implement.
Arguably, today's Hobie 16s are at least somewhat faster than the old days, even 10 years ago. Incremental changes have been made to stiffen the platform, allow greater mast rake, and improve handling of running rigging to make adjustments and maneuvers easier. Since Portsmouth is based on performance and not strictly design, an excellent case can be made to update the number. Having said that, the difference probably isn't much, and we'll need a bunch of new data to make a dent in the existing pool.
Mike