Some of the reasons for changing to carbon mast....
* Lighter mast, the carbon mast will be around 15 kg compared to the alu mast that is 25 kg. This makes the boat SAFER! This is VERY interesting for non proffesional sailors so they can right the boat themselves.
* Stiffer mast. The current alu mast has an s-shape instead of a normal bend wich makes it very difficult to get a proper sail shape.
* Reduce risk of mast breakage. The aluminum mast is very close to collapsing, one wrong move and you loose it!
/hakan
>>... The current alu mast has an s-shape instead of a normal bend wich makes it very difficult to get a proper sail shape
The carbon mast will have a S-shaped bend in it while sailing as well. This is the result of the way the stays are rigged to the masts on the cats. Carbon or not Carbon is of no consequence.
Wouter
Kevin,
Are you still building carbon boats? email me at c_boyd99@yahoo.com I have a project I want to chat with you about.
Thanks
ref: http:/
The carbon mast was accepted by the class, with 71% of the votes in favor of the mast. 187 votes was recieved.
Time to save some money and order a mast from Mr. Marstrøm..
Hello Hakan,
There is one very important point you did not mention. 1. The price of the Tornado just went up $5,000 plus US dallars. The boat is now a 30,000 dollar boat instead of a 25,000 dollar boat.
2. The weight of the carbon mast will not be 10kg lighter than the aluminum mast. Maybe a 5kg reduction is possible. If the new carbon mast is made to the same section as the present aluminum mast, it will be very very stiff. This means a new mainsail luff curve is required with much less curvature will have to be developed for the carbon mast and here goes the $$$$, dollars, running away again. Also the stiff carbon mast with reduced bend will make sails less versitile. Now the Tornado sailors will need light wind sails, medium wind sails and strong wind sails; the $$$$, dollars run away again.
3. The reason masts of any material bend in an S shape with spinnaker up is that the spinnaker hounds is too high above the main hounds, too much cantilever. Lower the spinnaker hounds is one solution. Another very simple and inexpensive solution is "back stays". Then you might as well go masthead with the spinnaker.
4. The present aluminum Tornado mast does have very little structural margin with the spinnaker and double trapeze. This is no surprise. A slightly larger aluminum mast section would be one answer. The cost of the new extrusion die equals the cost of one carbon mast.
Summary: What it comes down to is the Tornado class wants a carbon mast no matter what. To have it bend properly and have a thick enough wall so that the new mast does not have local buckling problems, the carbon mast section MUST BE SMALLER with a thicker wall. Then the class can have a mast that is bendy as the present aluminum mast and is tough at the same time with a reasonable wall thickness. The new smaller section carbon mast just made several hundred Tornado masts, maybe thousands, of aluminum Tornado masts not competitive. For a class to go from an aluminum mast to a carbon mast is one tough question. It has major impacts on many facets about the boat. It is not nearly as simple as "substitute carbon for aluminum and save 40% in mast weight and go for it".
Good Luck,
Bill
This i'm sure is just barely relevant to the subject, but as someone who has just become part of a partnership to start racing in the olympic class with an old, albiet still new in packaging tornado, this is kinda dismaying, because when this becomes the standard we will not be able to afford the change. The price of entering this game is daunting enough already, how much can the cost go up before you virtually eliminate new sailors entering your class?
Cost of the carbon mast from Marstrom will be held at 2860 EURO (~$3500 USD) with all fittings. Cost of an alloy mast with all fittings is nearly 1700 EUR0 (~$2100 USD)...a diff of $1400...where is the $5000 increase coming from? Whole boat is ~$22,000 USD...about a 6% price change for a carbon mast rig.
Minimum weight to be 15 kg...end weight to be set prior to final production by Marstrom.
Why do you say the section thickness will be the same as alloy, thus making a very stiff stick? I see no mention of it in the proposal:
Mike.
Josh,
the whole point is to stop people buy specially designed masts of alloy that are of limited availability. This creates an unfair competition. Also, the fact the top teams spend big bucks on numerous alloy section masts until they find a few they like (extrusion inconsistency), makes it quite expensive to be competitive.
Finally, equipment costs of an olympic campaign are a drop in the bucket with respect to the costs of training/travelling globally for at least a few years. Greg Scace, a USA campaigner until recently, told me his teams budget two years ago was $100,000 USD for ONE YEAR!!!...and that would ramp up significantly the year prior to the games. His main sponsor (and employer) got caught in the dot-com burst and dropped their committment. His olympic dreams died that day.
OK so maybe i misunderstood, i was under the impression that everyone was already limited to alluminum, because of the talk of the carbon fiber being "accepted". So is it more accurate to say that before mast was limmited only by leagnth, and this new rule limits the material as well? Sorry for being mostly ignorant, but sometimes I really have trouble getting past the price tags. To me $1400 is ALOT. But of course I have no sponsors, and by myself i probably never will.
I have an 8 year old boat with one of the original pre spin masts.... I don't double trap with more then 380 lbs on the boat because I fear I will break it going up wind....(Advice of Darren Bundock) Down Wind.... I blow rotation to allow the mast to rotate to 90 to keep it together in a breeze.
When I break it.... I would much rather put a carbon mast on the boat and get a (new to me).. slightly used sail from someone on a campaign. The technology will be superior to anything else on the market.
If I sell the boat to a cruiser... an aluminum stick will be just fine for them as well.
The Olympic guys want a carbon mast for two reasons:reproducibility and cost control based on the class president's letter.
Reproducibility... They seem to collect sticks to find the proper one for them.....They believe that the carbon masts will be far more reproducible and so cheaper in the long run. Cost Control.... Well funded campaigns (the Brits) have a mast program on going so the cost of playing just went up enormously.
With respect to a the cost of the boat... an I20 with carbon mast is close to 16K.... Is a Marstrom worth a 5 or 6 K premium?? ... ABSOLUTELY... the boat is bullet proof for 10 years and holds it value longer.
With respect to a campaign... the cost of the boat is trivial compared to the cash needed for sails, travel regattas and coaching.
Take Care
Mark
Clarification...only Alu Alloy masts were allowed until today. Now carbon is permitted, but only masts from recognized builders. Marstrom will be the only recognized builder for two years (at least!) to allow them to recoup tooling/development costs. Price is to be held at the 2800 Euro amount unless carbon costs rise significantly.
Sad fact is, $1400 is peanuts to a serious team...that's the reality of competing at this level. Good news is there will be lots of very good alloy tornado masts flooding the used market in the coming months...plenty to keep the average joe happy for years to come. But no new extrusions will be made.
How soon will this effect things realistically, I know my freind, I guess its ok to call him my teamate now, ordered a carbon mast from europe lsat year sometime, and is still waiting to recieve it. I know he's not the only one, Roy Seaman ordered the same mast at the same time and is also still waiting for his. Will this be the case with these as well?
Hi Mike,
It looks like Marstrom is doing everything he can to get the carbon mast on the Tornado. Marstrom brought the point up in the first place. Marstrom is the only manufacturer of a carbon mast for the Tornado. Marstrom's web site talks about the problems with the aluminum mast. Marstrom is initially pricing the carbon Tornado mast well below a normal price based on mast size. "He is working the problem".
My comment on mast section: Mast section or any beam/tube section is described by its outer dimensions. In the case of the mast we would be talking about the major axis length and the minor axis length. When I say same mast section, I am saying same mast outside shape. If we want to talk about mast stiffness, we talk in terms of moment of inertia which brings wall thickness into the discussion.
Carbon fiber is ten times as stiff as aluminum. Therefore if we build a carbon mast and we want it to have the same mast bend stiffness/softness as an aluminum mast, we will have to go down in mast section, shorter major axis and shorter minor axis. Reducing wall thickness to compensate for a 10 times stiffer material is not an option here. The resulting very thin wall thickness would cripple/buckle under normal mast loads. A smaller mast section in carbon with a thicker wall thickness would solve the strength/stiffness trade off study for the Tornado class. The only problem is that the Carbon mast will make obsolete hundreds of aluminum Tornado masts.
Bill
I will reserve my opinion until I see a new Tornado Carbon mast in action.
I have been playing with a shortened Marstrom's A-Class carbon mast with a cut down Tornado sail for a couple months so what I have learned may be of some use.
The mast is light and stiff. It's about the same weight as a Laser mast
It is partially foam core. The foam area and the carbon thickness seems to vary along the length.
The mast is stiff but more flexible above the hounds.
You set the mast curve with diamond wire tension. I can set mine to match the luff curve in a Tornado sail. I have heard some scary numbers like 900-1200 lbs from some A-catter's. I am using ~300-500 pounds.
For the first couple of weeks, steel wire stretches a lot compared to the amount of adjustment. For a Tornado, I might go with rod.
The Diamond wire tension is controlled by one bolt at the base of the mast. It's kind of wild to set everything up on a windless day and then make the hollow spot in the sail appear and disappear by playing with one bolt. We are not talking about a lot of adjustment, 2 turns or less. As I write this, I'm thinking "Maybe I should mark the bolthead to see if it's backing off".
Compared to a tapered Tornado mast, the carbon mast is a lot less automatic. It's not going to flex and adjust the sail shape for you. The mast will hold the shape you set and expects you to adjust the shape as needed. It's like an extreme version of the pre-bent Tornado rig.
On my setup, over sheeting has turned out to be a no-no. Sheet in hard on a puff and I slow down.
Now, if they would just fit a captive ball base to the Marstrom Tornado. (I can use Marstrom's base, I just don't like having an adventure every time the mast goes up or down.)
Interesting thread, but I think we`re missing the point here with respect to the reason for the change.
From what I`ve read here, the main reason seems to be to control costs at the cutting edge of the sport, where only 1% of the competitors play, and are paid to do so.
The carbon mast will prevent competitors such as the British Olympic team from HAVING to have a "mast program" and spending millions on developing their boat. Rest assured they will find another direction to spend that funding, since they have it.
It won`t make sailing a T more expensive for the weekend warrior - the ally masts will remain class legal for a time at least, and there will still be sailors who are self-funded and sail with the old rig. Those who want to sail a Worlds will spend the money, since it`s a fraction of the real cost of sailing the boat.
What happened to the Tornado by becoming an Olympic class was that the cost of campaigning a boat rose substantially, as happens in all classes. The cost of a Laser has gone up disproportionately with the increase in technology required to build one - they should be the cheapest boat money can buy. It is, after all, only Tupperware with a dacron sheet for a sail on a round tubular alu. mast. You could not design a cheaper boat if you tried, yet they are damn expensive for what you get. This is what Olympic status creates - the perception that the boat is worth more than it is. The sad thing is that the market tends to support this ridiculous notion.
Back to the T - it has long since been a boat that the average cat-sailor can buy & compete with on equal terms to the top sailors. The Tornado Worlds were in South Africa a few years ago, and we have 10 or 12 Marstrom Tornados here, most with the new rig & spinnaker, yet South Africa is no longer listed as one of the Tornado class member countries.
Why ? Because the cost of competing at that level has made it impossible for these sailors to continue without sponsorship, and sailing does not appeal to sponsors in this country since their return on investment is very low with respect to tv coverage etc. It is not worth these sailors effort to even be members of the class anymore.
What this means is that only those with Olympic ideals will continue to campaign the boat, and the boat will no longer be marketed towards, or sailed by, the regular weekend sailor.
The cost saving made at one level of the sport will become a cost increase at the base level, but that won`t concern the class association or the builders - the top level players will buy a new boat every 2 years at least.
If the Olympic selection committee ever choose another cat for the event other than the T, the class will disappear in a vapour trail, with only emty check-books as evidence it ever existed.
Pity, as its a magic machine.
Steve
>>>Carbon fiber is ten times as stiff as aluminum.
This is simply not true !
Check again Bill.
Stiffness to weight may be 10 time more but stiffness in absolute sense is actually comparable.
I think the tornado will keep going for a while longer, and it will be going alittle faster as time goes by.
Mr. Roberts is correct that a smaller/potentially faster mast section could be made in carbon/epoxy. Don't know if they will do that though.
i think it is wrong to say carbon is 10x stiffer than alu. First of all carbonfibers are flexible and come on a roll while alu. comes in a billet. so carbon in it's raw form is actually soft and pliable. Carbon/epoxy masts built with the same shape as alu. bend to the same curve as alu. they can even be built to the same stiffness as alu. the differnce between the 2 is in the reflex characteristics, and the amount of bend. Alu. just keeps bending and it doesn't spring back as brightly as carbon/epoxy.
there are all kinds of ways to use carbon too. There is a kind of nylon resin that is used with it to get rid of the brittle effect. some bike handelbars use it. a bike made of the carbon/epoxy developes hidden cracks if the bike is dropped causing the bike to be essentialy unridable.
What CF Modulus of Elasticity are we talking about from website below, it varies from 200 GPa to 350+ GPa (Alum = 69 GPa)
http:/
Also perhaps this may help http:/
Steve: I agree with you on many points. I dont think the class would vaporize if it lost olympic status tough.
Ref: British Tornado class
Besides, the Tornado has 'always' been an olympic class. That is not new, but the cost of an campaign has rocketed..
What do you think the ITA should do to attract new sailors (while keeping old ones) to the class ? I'm not thinking about olympic campaigns, but regular sailors.
The ITA has to act soon, becouse the olympic charter says that only boats with an widespread use are candidates. Today Germany and UK have quite strong classes, but even the germans had to cancel this years national championship due to lack of interest (20 boats wanted to sail, but the rules demands 25)..
Constructive comments ??
In kiting we used the following numbers for carbon tube. Afterall these tubes are not 100 % fibre but a composite of abou 65-75 % fibre and 35-25 % of low modulus resin. Aluminium can of course be used in a pure form of one single material (alloy additions don't really change this) .
Carbon 80 - 125 GPa
Glass 35 - 48 GPa
Alu (alloys) about 70 GPa (never used twose by the way)
From these numbers the two are quite comparable.
Weight of Carbon = 1470 - 1600 kg per cubic meter
Alu = about 2350 - 2700 kg per cubic meter.
This data came from EXEL a big producer of carbon tubes for kites and buggy kites.
I think that we both may be correct here. You stated the specs of pure fibre and I refered to the spec of a layup with resin. It is possible that over the years they were succesful in replacing resin with fibres making the fibre resin ratio alot higher and creating higher stiffness of the layups. I don't know. It has been several years since I was active in kiting.
Wouter
Hi Rolf,
Sadly, I don`t think the ITA could do anything to grow the weekend sailor base in the class. The boat has been refined and developed into a Formula 1 race car,in order to retain it`s Olympic status. Not too many folks would buy a F1 race car just to go weekend racing at their local track.
Of course I was exaggerating a bit when I said the class would disappear, but the truth is that most top-level T sailors would move onto the next class chosen for Olympics, even if it were the Hobie 16 without spinnaker, as the Olympic medal hopefuls are there for the medal, not the boat. The class would suffer a huge loss at the top-end, and many lower level (mere mortal weekend) sailors would pursue a more affordable class such as F18/Hobie Tiger/ F16/whatever the stronger classes in their own country are.
The Tornado would still exist in wealthy countries, mostly in Europe, but in developing countries other more affordable boats with more local involvement in the manufacturing process will be easier to sell to an already diminishing participant base.
The typical scenario in South Africa : The Dart 18 Worlds in 1999 were in SA, many Hobie 16 sailors bought a Dart just to do the event, so the class grew rapidly, but the hobie class suffered low turnouts for a year up to the Dart Worlds. Then Tornado Worlds came around, so many of the Dart & Hobie sailors swapped allegiance, sold boats & bought Tornados. The Dart class suffered a drop in club turnout from 28 boats to 4 boats at club level at one club alone. In 1999 you couldn`t find a Dart for sale, while in 2000 you couldn`t sell one. Same with Hobies before Tornado Worlds. Now the 10 or 12 Tornado owners would struggle to get the correct value for their boats if they wanted to sell them, because there is no REASON for a demand.
Dart Worlds AND Hobie 16 Worlds are both in SA in 2005, will be an interesting time just after these regattas - I believe there will be a lower South African turnout at both, since sailors will not be jumping classes as much, maybe more stability in the resale value of boats will be a positive outcome. my point is that many Tornado sailors would possibly switch classes if the boat lost Olympic status - not because they have hopes of competing in the Olympics, but because it`s nice to own a boat that has recognition. I think F18 or F18HT will benefit from this if it ever happened, since the boats are easier to transport & cost a lot less to maintain and campaign for a Worlds. At present, how many boats does the Tornado Worlds attract ? 62. Still a fair number by all means, but not when compared to the Dart 18, which attracted a "poor" turnout of 102 boats in 1999, normally over 150 boats up to 300. The cost of sailing a boat is critical - most Dart sailors, even at Worlds level, are just weekend sailors with enough cash for an overseas holiday where they can go sailing for 10 days in a new location. If the ITA could get the average weekend sailors in their class to the Worlds, half the battle would be won. The reason that weekend warriors would feel out of sorts at a Worlds is that the boats have become too expensive to keep up with the top guys. Rig changes, carbon masts, and high-tech manufacturing methods have elevated the cost beyond reach of most.
With Olympic status comes professionalism. Competitors are paid in one form or another to train, compete & sail 8hours a day every day. It`s not sensible to expect a weekend sailor to even attempt to keep up with that. So we find that all Olympic classes lose their weekend sailor base at Worlds & even Nationals level. Once the National level has been eroded to a handful of sailors (Only 20 in Germany, you say?) that are really the guys trying to qualify for their country`s spot at the Olympics, you find that at club level the class suffers, since a Nationals is no fun for a regular sailor when competing with the Olympic hopefuls.
The Finn and Star classes are examples where the Olympics have kept the classes alive longer than they should have survived, they are both fairly antiquated classes in todays terms. The T is far away from that, but has only kept up with the newer designed cats through the rig upgrade (which was forced on them by the Olympic selection committee) and highly expensive manufacturing methods. That, and the fact that the designer got it so right all those years ago.
Sorry for such a long reply, just my thoughts, not necessarily correct, since my opinion can only be based on what I`ve experienced, read or heard throught the grapevine, none of which are reliable sources of information !
Cheers
Steve
Hi Steve, long replys are often _good_ replys.
Some small points along the way. Participation in the T-Worlds are limited based on the respective countries ITA members. All nations are allowed one team, but countries with many ITA members are allowed additional slots (up to 4 i think). So there would probably be more than 62 teams at the worlds if it was open for all.
In Germany they alternate the nationals between the coast and the inland (lakes). 2003 saw some 32 boats participating with lots of older sailors, some quite young and mostly weekend warriors. There was three or four olympic teams present then.. I dont know what caused the low numer of teams this year, perhaps the prospect of little wind?
Would it be insulting to say that you basically think that the T is kept artifically alive by the olympics?
Professionalism are making some disturbances in our sport, as you say. And we regular guys are of course not competitive with the pros'. But doesn't your 10-12 Marstrøms (and I bet there are other T-designs in SA +neighbouring countries as well) go out racing and have a good time? If they dont, why? Lack of initative, acceptable goals or general apathy?
In 2003 the swedish championship was cancelled due to lack of interest. Then some T sailors started to sail together in Stockholm. This year 7 T's came to the SM, and the class Assoc. had its first meeting in 6-7 years. Now they are working to have 4 official regattas next year and to get more boats to attend.
The start price in the T is not that bad, considering that it has a crew of two to share the cost. But of course changes like the carbon mast hurts a bit. The other olympic classes like the Laser should be hurt by professionalism just as much, but at least here in Norway both the Laser and Europe thrives.. (even tough we have professional teams in both classes)
I would like to hear other peoples toughts about the lack of T interrest and what could be done.
PS: Steve, I guess you know that the Hobie 16 are still trying to become the olympic multihull 
I`ll try to keep this one shorter 
.
Ok, entry to Worlds limited - I never knew that.
"Would it be insulting to say that you basically think that the T is kept artifically alive by the olympics?"
No, quite the opposite - I think (my opinion only) that Olympic status can do more to harm a healthy class than help it grow. Basically the class grows at the highest level at the expense of membership at the base. When a setback at the highest level occurs (such as being replaced as the Olympic boat), is there still enough of a membership at the weekend level for the class to survive? Has the Soling survived after being dropped from The Olympics ? I don`t know, but would guess against that probability.
What I`m saying is it`s kind of like a vicious circle - The boat gets selected for the Olympics, then in order to remain the Olympic boat they have to keep changing to suit the IOC selection requirements. So they do this for 20 years, only to find they have out-priced themselves in the base market, ie us, the weekend sailors. NOW they HAVE TO REMAIN the Olympic boat to keep their popularity.
The T is a great boat, but for a lot less money you can now buy quite a few very nice boats, F18/F18HT etc.
Would the T remain as popular without being the Olympic boat ? I can`t answer that, but I have my own ideas.
Would it have grown to what it is now without Olympic status ? Of course that is impossible to answer. It would probably be less high-tech,less expensive, and have more builders involved, as the only reason it has funneled down to one major builder is that everyone MUST HAVE the boat that won last year`s Worlds. The original olympic classes could be home-built and was in fact a criteria for the selection, this is long gone.
"Professionalism are making some disturbances in our sport, as you say. And we regular guys are of course not competitive with the pros'. But doesn't your 10-12 Marstrøms (and I bet there are other T-designs in SA +neighbouring countries as well) go out racing and have a good time? If they dont, why? Lack of initative, acceptable goals or general apathy?"
Unfortunately they don`t race often, for all of the reasons you list. It`s a lot of work to travel to an event, set up the boat, and take time off work, pay accommodation etc, for a Nationals where maybe 6-8 boats will attend, if we had 30 boats and 20 of those attended it would be more worthwhile. Our situation is so different - take the price of any boat and multiply it by 8,5 - that`s realistically what a boat costs us. If you earn R10 000 and a new Tornado costs R 300 000, that is the comparison. 30 times our income. So there won`t be too many more imported T`s here. Our Marstroms are over 10 years old, so not worth spending all the money to attend a Worlds where the newer boats have the advantage. So that goal is out of most people`s reach.
Of course here a Laser and Hobie 16 costs around R65 000, while a brand new entry level car costs R80 000, while there can be no comparison in the effort & technology required to build each. So that has killed sailing here to a large extent. We have a few 49er`s, 10 or so 29er`s, not enough boats in each fleet to build on. We must produce locally to keep sailing reasonably affordable, which is what is happening.
By the way, I can buy a complete Mosquito, (16ft "miniature Tornado" ) for R50 000, or 6275 Euro, probably the same price as the new carbon T mast ! It has carbon reinforced epoxy-foam sandwich hulls, carbon boards & blades, full mylar sails, spinnaker, and weighs about 100kg.
I think the problem with our sport is that it is way too fragmented, there are more boats than sailors, and still more boats being designed every day. When a new class is introduced, it will grow at the expense of an older class, I suppose that is evolution, but not growth.
Cheers
Steve
There is no doubt in my mind that this is the case here in Southern California. All the T sailors here survive on used sails sold by campaigners. It's a very affordable class if you are willing to buy used equipment. None of us would buy a new boat.
However, the last 2 times we've managed to get 2 T skippers together, we could see a fleet of Tigers and Inter/Nacra-20's (carbon mast, BTW) racing in the distance.
The carbon mast is not the reason the T fleets will not be growing, since the Inter-20 has a carbon mast and is a very popular racing boat around here and is selling well. IMHO, the things that make the Tornado a hard sell are the wide beam (making trailering difficult), the cost (double that of a Tiger), and the reputation for being unrightable (although I've seen Gary Friesen right my Tornado *solo* with a righting pole), the fragile gaskets that keep them off the beach, and the wide tacking angle because of the centerboards and wide beam and sloop rig (which make tacking up narrow channels a bit tedious).
I'd not recommend a used Tornado for a novice, though I would recommend a used F-18 Tiger, although I would advise them to leave the bowsprit at home for the first year at least.
I don't see how Olympic status would hurt the F-18 class, or the Hobie-16 if it were adopted. The Tornado's problems have nothing to do with that.
Here in the US, it's a cultural problem: Americans want to be entertained in their time off more than ever, and are sailing less. Attendence at all regattas (not just Tornado regattas) is down. The Tornado, being the most exclusive class is hit first, but volume is so low the venerable Hobie 18 stopped production and even at Hobie regattas some classes can't get enough boats for a start.
We would love to get enough (4) boats together to get a start at a local "Olympic Classes" regatta, but we haven't been able to get that many boats together yet, and if we do, we know the finish order is likely to be 1994 Marstrom, 1980's sailcraft, 1980's sailcraft, 1971 Panthercraft (with a possible hand-made wooden boat thrown in there), since those are the boats in the region.
I have never, ever, ever heard of anyone sharing the purchase price of a boat with their crew (unless they are married). The Price:Performance ratio is definitely important, and you can get almost as much performance for much less money from other boats.
IMHO it helps the Tornado. Anyone fanatical enough to buy a Tornado for performance wants all they can get. Anyone campaigning will get a competitive mast at a fixed price and the mast properties will better match their sails. Old boats are not competitive, with or without the new mast.
The price problem comes from the fact that the competitive boats are built using expensive materials, techniques, and tooling that only a single vendor has invested in (and considering the volume, who else would try?), and noone is building noncompetitive boats because there is no market for them.
One of the problems with a boat becoming an Olympic class is that the price usually goes up, making the boat less affordable at the lower levels of racing. I have always heard that one of the reasons the price goes up is because the boat becomes more expensive to build -- the manufacturers have to have much tighter quality control and much smaller tolerances for all aspects of the boat.
Personally I think it's great to hear that the T went with a carbon mast. I think they will develop the carbon mast and really perfect it. This technology will bubble down to the other classes and we will get the advantage of having a cheaper, better, carbon stick than we could otherwise. The T class needs to stay leading edge to keep worldwide interest.
Mike Hill
Tiger #1520
Hi Gang,
It sounds like the Tornado class wants a carbon mast no matter what. The headline has now changed to a safety point. "Any reason to support the position in favor of the carbon mast is welcome".
A shroud extension system would make the Tornado one person rightable and the parts cost about $100.
A new aluminum mast extrusion die paid for by the manufacturer would solve the mast extrusion inconsistency problem. If there is a problem with variations in the mast taper, this can be solved with laser cutting and robotic welding. This is twenty year old manufacturing technology. I see none of these solutions being suggested. The Tornado class wants a carbon mast no matter what and that is all there is to that.
The Finn class decided to go with a carbon mast a few years ago and now their mast situation is a mess; no satisfactory solution. The masts still break like match sticks.
Learn from experience:
The sailboard industry tried carbom masts about 25 years ago. The first ones were very stiff; too stiff to work at all. The parts were built with fiberglass tooling. The next step was to go down in mall thickness. This was tried; these spars would bend and they proved to be very fragile. Many of the thin wall spars broke while the sail outhaul was being tightened. The rest of them broke while sailing. Carbon sailboard spars got a bad name and the enthusiasm for the carbon sailboard spar fell off for a few years. Then finally along came a carbon spar that was about 75% of the diamenter of the glass spar with a thicker wall than the old carbon spars and the new one was bendy and lightweight and tough. Hot Dog, somebody finally found the answer! They had adjusted the mast diameter and wall thickness in coordination with the modulus of elasticity of carbon and came up with a part that bent much like the glass spar and was much lighter in weight and tough.
If the Tornado class is going to have a satisfactory carbon spar that bends much like the present aluminum mast, the engineers/designers are going to have to have a clean sheet of paper to work with. No rules like "it has to be the same outside shape as the present aluminum mast". A rule like this is guaranteed disaster. There is too much difference in physical properties between carbon and aluminum to impose this limit on the carbon mast.
Bill
Now that I agree with. To stay with the same extrusion parameters but go to carbon doesn't offer much.
We'd also need a captive ball mast step, no? With shroud extenders, I've never understood how you get up to the high side to pull the pin when it's ~10 feet off the water. Please explain...
Bill,
let it go. you don't even sail a tornado. Carbon is a great material and many sailboat masts are built with it. Granted they are still learning the best way to go about it,and it is more costly, but it is the future.
On your sailboard example you mixed the apples and oranges. Carbon didn't replace glass masts for racing. Racing masts were alu. and during the first couple years of carbon masts some racers still used alu. as the first carbon masts were too stiff. the glass masts are used in the waves. they still are mostly glass. Windsurf masts are labled by their pecentage of carbon and by a system for gauging the flex characteristics. Some of the masts are skinny and some are the same as they ever were. The racing masts have more carbon and thinner walls.
For most things on a cat-lighter is better