Florida 300 May 19-May 22

So making excuses ,valid or not, makes breaking the rules OK?
I'm done. You guys know way too much about distance races and rules for me.

signal mirror, if batteries get low on GPS or VHF, good for line of site from chase boat if dismasted, or separated from boat. Helps confirm GPS coordinates. Can be seen for miles.

Just having fun with you but I didn't think we were talking about breaking rules. I thought you said that it was legal in the SI's to talk to your ground crew during the race.

You want to get me fired up, lets talk about really light air sailing at 1am and your competition (with whom you were sailing side by side with before they turned) has their ground crew meet them in the surf 1/4 mile short of the finish line and then run their boat to the finish line beating you by 5 or 10 minutes. The SI's said that your ground crew could meet you in the surf so I was pretty stuck without much to lodge a protest against - in the case there might have actually been a protest committee. I complained to the race committee that it wasn't very sporting and you can just imagine the response I got back. I then presented taking the case to the extreme of a really light air start and suppose a ground crew walked/ran the boat up the coast a couple of miles in the surf. Not much of a conversation piece that was either.

y'all might want to note the Florida 300 SI's are still a little grey on where ground crew can assist a boat on the course side while finishing. The start wording boxes them into a course perpendicular to the surf but the finish does not.

I don't want to turn this into a punching bag session but why do the SI's state that there is no protest committee? It's this kind of stuff that makes us look like amateurs to the sport of sailing. It's not like I'm some protest happy monster (I've filed one in my entire life)...but, still.

Jake,

Just to get you fired up, in such a circumstance, consider protesting under Rule 2. I think you could make a very good argument that such tactics are contrary to the principle of fair sailing. If I were on a jury in such a circumstance, I'd be very sympathetic to a claim under rule 2 or rule 41.

Alternatively, if you don't want to play the sportsmanship card, you could protest under rule 42

Propulsion

. Pulling a boat along the shoreline through the surf is not

using only the wind and water

. Sailing instructions may, in stated circumstances, permit other methods of propulsion (such as assistance from shore crew for beaching), provided the boat does not gain a significant advantage in the race. See RRS 42.3(i).

Regards,
Eric

Todd, if it's legal, what is your problem???

Eric, while I agree with you for 99.999% of our regattas, if all the teams are allowed to talk to their road crew, who all have access to the data, there is nothing unfair about it.

Besides, it would be close to impossible to prove without witnesses, and there is no PC for this event.

Mike

Sailing Instructions may change RRS 41

Outside Help

to permit boats to receive information from shore crew. Exactly what is permissible depends on the wording of the SIs.

Most of the regattas I attend have no standing protest committee. If a protest is filed, Race Committee forms a Protest Committee ad. hoc.

The hardest job Protest Committee has, is figuring out what happened (a.k.a.

finding facts

). Because sailboat racing is not typically umpired, impartial observers are rare. All PC can do is take the available testimony and reconstruct the incident as best it can. That then becomes the

facts found

. Applying the rules is the easy part.

Regards,
Eric

After reading the SIs (again), the OA may want to consider clarifying their intent in this regard.

SI 8.3 allows communication with ground crew, but does not modify RRS 41.

SI 11.9 modifies RRS 41, but only for emergencies.

So, what is the intent? Be careful, because this is a genie/bottle thing. It's extremely difficult to enforce a half-rule (i.e. you can talk to someone, but only about certain things), you're better off just taking away any restrictions.

Edit: Eric, they stated that there will be no PC in the SIs. That's quite different than pulling one together as needed. Again, I'm not completely clear on the intent, because they stop short of stating that protests are not allowed...

Mike

One other (should have been obvious) thing: unless the cell phones are restricted to dumb phones, sailors won't need to talk to anyone ashore to see the tracking data, they can just use the phone to access the website.

Everyone's got a phone, everyone can get to the data, where's the crime?

Mike

Assuming you can get a signal.

We actually toyed with this idea during the Everglades challenge and had the gear to view the tracking map. However, it was pretty useless when the event tracking map crashed. But, then again, knowing where our competition was really wouldn't have changed anything - we're all going in the same direction to the same points and it would have mostly just been trivia. Its not like we would have changed course based on any of the information we could learn. With the length of the Everglades challenge, it could possibly affect when and how long we shut down for rest and knowing the weather forecast after two days is a benefit to your course selection. However, that's not a factor in a race like the Florida 300 where you get to reboot every evening. I still think having access to any of that information in a race like this is more of a distraction and offers no real benefit. What are you going to do? Go faster?

A Sailing Instruction that changes (i.e. conflicts with) a racing rule without conforming to RRS 86.1(b) is not valid. To change RRS 41, the SI must

refer specifically to it and state the change

.

The genie is already out of the bottle. It's perfectly acceptable to call your spouse while racing and make dinner plans. Rule 41, however, prohibits calling someone stationed up the course and discussing the wind conditions.

RRS 85 states

The organizing authority, race committee, and protest committee shall be governed by the rules in the conduct and judging of races

. RRS 63.1 states

the protest committee shall hear all protests...

. If an organizing authority refuses to form a protest committee, or if a protest committee refuses to hear a protest, then they are in breach of RRS 85, and are subject to appeal.

In theory, SI's could change rules 60-68 to remove a boat's right to protest and eliminate hearings, but that would be sowing disaster. The OA might as well not follow the Racing Rules of Sailing at all.

I hope that helps,
Eric

He didn't work for SA did he? The last year we did it, one of our ground crew kept telling us each day what to expect and was not even close! I asked her where she was getting her info and all I can say was his initials were MM. I politely said we didn't need any info from that source.

Using a smart phone to browse a public website is permitted under RRS 41(c),

information freely available to all boats

. See ISAF Case 120.

I hope that helps,
Eric

14.2 An arbitration committee shall be called to seek resolution of redress requests described in submitted protest forms. The PRO and the Beach Master will be members of but shall not chair of this committee.

The only reason we do not have a protest committee is that we would need to get a live certified Judge to preside, we would need to pay his expenses.

Eric, at this point, you're making my case in all aspects...

I fully agree with Jake, utility will be minimal in all likelihood. Even if you sailed into a hole, and some other boats appeared to be in better breeze based on the tracking, you'd still need to get over to them...

Mike

Not true. There is no requirement to pay or reimburse any official. You could have different (local) judges at each stop as well.

And, you don't have to use a certified judge (although that is best practice).

What is the plan if someone wants to file a protest (not a request for redress)?

Mike

What about Skype or Vsee for a protest? I know there has been some discussion of utilizing these for hearings, and a multi-stop distance race would be a great example of where it could be beneficial. Admittedly there are issues with the idea, but it would be great to be able to have judges familiar with performance cats, no matter where the event.

If SPOT trackers are mandatory, as currently stated in the SI's, they either need to be provided by RC and sponsorship dollars used to cover their cost OR the fee included with the entry fee like other races that use tracking.

The inability to lodge a protest is asking for trouble. What is the RC's proposed solution when there is a collision at a start, finish or at any other time during racing and the results of a formal protest hearing need to be submitted for an insurance claim?

By that thinking they should supply all equipment. Hell, a boat too while they're at it. Don't like the rules, don't play the game, pretty simple.

Not allowing protests is insane.. reminds me of a certain steeplechase start a couple years ago.

Sam your logic on providing trackers makes no sense. There is no reason why they can't require it and require competitors to pay for it too. I've been to races where it was required to pay for tracking. It's not always realistic for the RC to have expenses like that.

Nope not that one - I can't imagine what that would be like.

We scratch together a protest committee at local regattas with 8 boats. We did it a couple of months ago as a formality. There's really nothing magical to it.

For starters, the protest has nothing to do with an insurance claim although it is never a bad idea in this regard. A protest committee NEVER assigns

fault

. Protest committees only assign penalties as it relates to breaches of the rules. The fact that this may or may not affect or influence the decision of an insurance company is completely arbitrary.

Ditto...

Protest Committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS Prescription 67(b)). However,

by participating in an event governed by the rules, a boat agrees that responsibility for damages arising from any breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules...

. See USS Prescription 67(c).

1. Because an insurance company cannot apply the rules without knowing what happened, it is vitally important to have a protest hearing that provides finding of facts.
2. Because you cannot depend on an insurance company knowing anything about the rules, it's vitally important to have a protest hearing to apply the rules and determine fault.

So yes, protest committee does determine

fault

, and yes, that determination directly affects an insurance claim.

Regards,
Eric

Not exactly the way I've heard it described at seminars. The insurance companies can take the report as evidence, but can then do whatever they want in terms of damages.

Mike

Eric +1 on every one of your posts in this thread.
Warren told me the arbitration comm. has the same effect(

The results of an arbitration committee may be used for insurance purposes as the results of a Protest committee.

). Not sure how it gets handled when no one is requesting redress but has a protest to lodge for a rules infraction, of which it is supposed to be your responsibility to protest.This concerns me, even though I've only ever filed one in my life also (to get redress).
I'm pretty much to the point where I'm done pointing out stuff on here because with the exception of Eric, many (Mike) seem to justify or create a straw man to try to argue their point for breaking the rules, that still doesn't make it right or legal. For example:Communication and outside assistance are different things. Outside assistance requires communication but not vice versa.
Sam, The Spots are not mandatory for the 300(per the SIs) unless you are going to use it instead of an Epirb.They may be for the sprint thing, not sure.

So now we can't have a debate about the rules without being accused of trying to break them? Wow...

Mike

You've swung and missed so many times on this thread it really doesn't matter.

You need to get out more. Not every event has to be run the same way, nor the way you personally desire.

No one is a bigger stickler for rules than I am, but rules can and do change. What is important is that they be clear and the consequences be well understood.

I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices. Get back to me when you have an answer for that one...

(I know, it's easier to just accuse me of promoting cheating, isn't it?)

Mike