Formula 22

Hello Steve-

I own a 22

I don't know who these designers/builders are that are quoting this 325-350 lb range but my 22 has carbon hulls,boards,rudders, and hiking stick and aluminum mast/beams and weighs 467lbs. The hulls weigh 100 & 100.5lbs. with racing paint not gel coat. My spin pole is carbon [2 5/8OD] as well. The aluminum mast wiehs around 85lbs and the mian sail thats kevlar weighs 36lbs with battens whiile the jib weighs about 10lbs. These boats develop tremendous power [main sheet is 12] and if strength is sacrificed for weight savings then someone will pay the price!

Just remember the 22 was designed for winds under 20mph!!! I have a set of smaller sails about 270sq ft. I took out a potential buyer for this boat on a clear day. Of course when we were the farthest point on the lake from where we put in the wind came up. Its stared blowing about 15-25mph with gusts above 30mph. We had just come about when it hit. We pointed into the wind and accelerated to about 27mph. The reason I know is that a boat mechanic I know [tuning a Cigarrette on the water] followed us all the way back. The rigging was so loud we couldn't hear each other's screams. When we tacked under the lee side of the dam the boat tacked before my crew could get to the other side. We went through two cuts and finally back to the beach. The mechanic that followed us all the way back said we broke 28mph several times. All this with a sail plan thats approximately 100 sq feet less than the stock 22 sail plan. I don't know if the speeds quoted by the mechanic are accurate but I do know that if we were out there with the full 360sqft we would have been turtled for certain in those gusts.

I have included a link that shows my 22 in the last 10 pics I think.

fair winds,

Thom

ARC22 #2234

FMS SC20 #57

http://home.att.net/~t.r.merrill/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

The SC22 sounds like quite a handfull. How hard is it to unturtle it? Does the 12 foot beam make that real hard?

David Ho

TheMightyHobie18 1067

David

I have sailed the 22 a few times, flipped it twice (once on purpose and once due to the nut on the tiller (me)).

Flip was alot slower than a 20 and I probably could have recovered except for my lack of experience on boat. I have never heard of one turtling but I can tell you that we had no trouble righting the boat. It will float away from you real quick though if you get blown off.

Steve

Tom @ Aquarius says the mast is sealed and has enough bouyancy to stop the boat from turtling. What I was referring to was the strength of the gusts that day. If you landed in the main sail from a violent capsize turttling the boat could be possible. The 22 has shroud extenders that lower the hull past TDC and allows the hull weight to pull the boat back upright. The 22 is slow to come up but the weight of the mast [85lbs] is a factor that deserves attention in gusty conditions.

Thom

Has anyone considered that a SC 22 cost nearly $30K with sails and a trailer? The SC 22 cost more than a Marstrom 20 and is not as fast. The Marstrom demonstrates that lightweight unirig cats with spinnakers are proving FASTER and safer than the massive performance equivalents.

I have spoken to two SC 22 owners who have stated that in almost all conditions the M-20 is faster than the SC22. Why encourage bigger, more powerful, more dangerous cats, when lightweight alternatives such as the M-20 are available?

Another equal comparison is the I-20 and the F18HTs, the F-18HT is nearly as fast or as fast and is much lighter and easier to handle.

I thought that we were trying to move into the future, but I see some are hard to convince. Why do you think that the SC 22s are disappearling from the major distance races like the Miami to Key Largo, Hogsbreath 100 and Mug Race? Their owners are to beat up or spoked!

If you want a pro circuit, why do need such dinosaurs? They take an extra day before and after the race to set up and can only acheive their performance through massive sail area-NO FINESS INVOLVE. Go with a modern boat the M-20!

An aside-the SC22 has been known to turtle in the C-100 and Steeplechase. So much for mast buoyancy saving the day.

Isn't that the point of a Formula Class? Comparing boats the same length, width, height and sail area while allowing innovation from within those parameters to take place. Thats what catsailing is about "Inovation".

Which bothers you the most about the 22...cost [your figure is low] , setup time [I have put mine together singlehanded in 3 hours and down in 2.5 hours on an expandable trailer], "NO FITNESS INVOLVED [have you sailed one in heavy air??], or turtling [which all boats do]???

As far as being an old design; what about the Tornado before and after Marstrom started his quest??? The 22 basic design has not been significantly changed since 1992 I believe [Roberts will know]. Its a good design that a Formulas Class could be developed around with plenty of room for innovation.

thom

For a spec pro series, a boat that captures the imagination and is a bit of a hairy beast is what you want, IMO. Notice the success of the Aussie-18 skiff series. One of the reasons it makes for a good pro series and good TV is that you have to be on your game to do it. When the Pro Sail thing was going on, the 40s were the stars of the show, even though the other boats probably provided closer racing. They were big, visible, and sure looked like a handful (whether they were or not). For me, the 22 fits that kind of a bill - they're exciting, and they have the capability to capture the imagination. Just what is needed.

Anybody who thinks the ARC boats are dinosaurs haven't been around them much, I think. Maybe they're not the current minute's approach to design, but that also doesn't put them in the has-been categorie. Are people really parking them because they're scared and bruised? I'd gladly trade my boat, that will probably not scare or bruise them, with one of theirs if they'd like to feel better... 😉

Feg,

You bring up a couple of points. The M-20 doesn't comply to any basic formula because of its beam and it is redundant to start another formula in the 20 foot range just due to beam issues.

Second, I have not seen a M-20 (DPN - 57.0) beat a sc22 (56.2) although the dpn's are close. Also, I think the only person sailing a M20 is Robbie Daniel. Also remember that the sc22 is quoted as the carbon comp 22.

Now about lightweight boats, they can be built lighter and stronger than the 22 and that is the point of the original question. Please look at the first one and answer that please.

The circuit will be run on 22 foot boats not 20's due to the ease of controlling the field (since there are not alot of 22's its easier to get manufacturer certificates stating the compliance of formula rules in construction to the specific boat) Thereby, reducing the workload of weighing every boat at every race versus having the manufacturer weigh the boat and then have the boats spot checked for compliance.

Steve

Steve,

You wrote-

"Second, I have not seen a M-20 (DPN - 57.0) beat a SC22 (56.2) although the dpn's are close. Also, I think the only person sailing a M20 is Robbie Daniel. Also remember that the sc22 is quoted as the carbon comp 22"

Steve, when was the last time you attended a major long distance race? The question would be better stated "When was the last time you saw a SC22 beat the M-20?". Because the SC 22s have all but disappeared from the major long distance races, I can cite the last two match ups. In the last C-100, the M-20 beat a well sailed SC22 boat for boat. In the last Steeplechase the M-20 beat the SC-22 badly, as well as all the other boats.

By today's standards the 450lbs+ SC22 is heavy and outdated. Let's move into the future. The SC22 (ARC22) overcomes inefficiency and mass through brute force and this simply is not necessary. As far as manufacturers certifying to the yet to be established "F-22 Class", I doubt that many outside of Aquarius (ARC/SC builder) will be willing to produce a carbon 22 footer. The market simply does not exist, now that the lightweight 20 (18s?) are showing better performance.

On another note, when was the last time you saw a SC22 beat a well sailed I-20 around a buoy course? Inefficiency and shear size precludes the SC22 from being a successful bouy racer. Who wants to watch sailors struggling around the bouys at paces slower than the M-20 or I-20 for that matter? There is a reason that the most successfull beach cat racing designs have been 20 ft or less (tending towards 18ft).

You bring up some good points. The boat was designed in the 80's with the latest technology at that time. The question was not should we race on sc22's? It was should be allow the 22 to run if it falls under the formula rules.

According to a world-class designer, "a new technology 22 could be built in the 300-350 lbs range maybe a few pounds less depending on the builder". Also, a market would exist by due to the series commitment to structure and organization of events. Much in the way that pro-sail made a market for the hobie 21and formula 40. Both are boats that would not have been built if not for the series.

As for around the bouys racing, it depends on:

the size of the course

the number of boats

the amount of wind

the quality of sailors

and as in real estate --- location, location, location.

Watching sailboat racing is like watching paint dry for most people. How many people went out to watch the Worrell?? Not many, most of us "watched" it online. How many people watch bouy's racing???? not many.

As for a 20ht beating a 22ht ---- each has its best format for racing. But day in day out a 22 would win just due to physics.

Steve

Steve,

You stated-

"As for a 20ht beating a 22ht ---- each has its best format for racing. But day in day out a 22 would win just due to physics"

I was speaking of real life results between the I-20 and SC22. However, I would like to point out a factor to consider-Human Limitations. At some point the boats can get so big and powerful, that smaller boats can win out around a bouy course.

I see that you have now proposed a new class, in addition to the F-22, that is the 22HT class. This is a step in the right direction, however there are limits.

I enjoy our debate. Are you serious about this 22 ft thing or is this meant to stir up lively debate, for which it has succeeded!

Kieth and Steve -

Having thought about how to lower the weight of the 22 a couple of points come to mind. Sail material like cuben fiber and graphX are lighter than other materials, carbon masts should be lighter but may break under the strain of the main sail and large spins. You may save 40lbs by going to a carbon mast but also could have to replace several before you get one thats strong enough to last. The beams on Carbon Copy have very thick walls to accomodate the stress of that tall mast. Autoclaved components save weight but cost. Marstrom will make a mast for around $6000 I think.

The crew weights of the 22 are 450 lbs max. I would rather have a crew of three than two on heavy air days. Theres room on the tramp especially considering that one or bothe will be out on the trap. This weekend I plan on taking 2 women out that weigh less than 250LBS. I want to see how the boat can be sailed by three. With the self tacking jib quick tacks can leave you on the low side. The concept of having the advantage of a 200lb man [me] handle the spin with some help from the third crew maybe beneficial or not.

One other point the 22 sail area is a max figure [Smyth makes a 280sqft main but the stock main is smaller] but in certain areas less sail area is better...

thom

The proposed series racing is for a new technology 22. The initial question was should the SC22 be allowed to compete.

Personally, I am divided on the issue but I do want input on the issue.

As for a new class, the intention is to incourage designers and builders bring their best to the table. Much in the way that the A class does. Actually the A class is the blueprint for this series when it comes to rules, regs, and operations.

Hopefully, before the end of July we will be able to finalize the remaining issues and announce the series, locations, builders etc.

As for Autoclaving, one designer has stated that would be the preferred way to build the boat/mast. From my understanding that designer is awaiting finalized quotes for production of the design.

As for crew weights and minimums that is TBD. But I do not think the CW will be less than 360lbs. This is due to the number of monohull sailors that have expressed an interest in a sponsored series.

Steve

I guess I don't understand why you would want to use 22 paramenters and exclude the original boat from competition. If the new designs ever come about [which is not definite] and they are faster then[not a definite] they will eventally push the original boats out of competition. But if they don't and a new hybrid develops between the original design and new innovations then everybody gains.

Who has the final word on this?

thom

Thom,

Those are my feelings exactly. Personnally I am not looking at excluding the sc22. I would rather have a hybrid boat develope. But, I believe that the builder of the boat will probably want to stay with its existing one design setup.

There are two other designs that are coming forward that as of yet are "paper-only" and untested but, promise better performance.

From a organizers perspective let everything that qualifies run and let the race course decide which is the better performer.

As to the desicision process that is up to the PRO and circuit chairman. Of those two postions I am neither.

Steve

Hi Steve

here are my thoughts after reading posts ,

The 22 is a great boat and should be inc espesially since no ht 22 yet exists if the 22 size is a must .

The other options for a Prosail type class are as suggested existing 20 ht designs , The CFR 20 does exist design by Morrelli with huge Smyth sailplan =huge main only and spin.

-The lightweight platform and huge sailplan insure that this type of design could only be sailed by heavier teams {your main requirement } as it reportedly flys a hull in 6 mph winds .

Think 2 are in existance, the designer could fill you in along with Randy on needed revisions and improvements ,part of every cat design developement .

-It is much more affordable, DOES EXIST , and would save design building sail plan time and developement costs , has plenty of room for sponsors logos on the main and spin.-is easily trailerable , and much more accessable and a familiar size to numerous existing competitive teams.

We would find a way to intergrate them into F-20 starts along with larger beam 20s , scored seperately in a 20 ht class or with a rating number at local events for practise and comparison purposes.-great fun

Carl

Steve-

Having spoke to a few builders as wel;l I have found the bottom line is feasibility? Can you make it and can you sell it? I remember when the Tornado guys voted down the changes that are in place today on the new boat. I said to several who said the decision was cast in stone that if you show them how much fun it is they will change their minds. In some ways this 22 concept sounds great but learn from the C Class experience. Several boats were made but few were actually made twice that I am aware of. All new concepts are doomed to fail if there isn't a yardstick to measure against. I am old enough to rmemeber the Delorean that was going to run the Corvette out of existence. Which one is here now? I have serious concerns about a 22 class being formed and progressing if you have to wait on these boats to be built, tested, and priced out less than a house. I'm serious about that price. Having sailed a 22 you are aware of the power that sail plan develops. Imagine building a prototype and the mast pushes the main beam through the hull or rips out the side tangs or forestay. Some things can not be tested in a computer. You may know this already but in case you aren't aware the 22 is an extension of the SC20 outside but inside it has 23 years approximately of R&D development behind it.

I spoke to a builder wannabe last year that measured my 20 and wanted to try to make a similar copy in graphite. he did start the project but gave up at Christmas. After spending in excess of $10k. The man was not prepared to start that project much less complete it. Thats the problem with builders they start a project realize specifics that they didn't anticipate and either run out of money or talent to solve the problem. Just because Roberts/Haberman or Boyer or Alter can do it doens't mean that somone else can because they have a computer. Basically I feel it requires alot of good luck to make these projects go to completion.

I remember when when the Hot Rod association was formed. Innovation to the stock cars started that sport. They had classes...apples vs apples or 51 Fords vs 51 Fords. No one had they money to design and make their own cars but they could modify their family cars to race on Sundays. Thats how I see the Formula 22 circuit evolving. Take whats there and race. If and when something new does come; drop it into the grease and see if it competes.

Also one other point; there aren't that many 22s around. I have only seen four besides mine. If there is going to be competition it had better be in the middle of the country so that all boats can get there in 2 days. I just came back from the Corsair nationals and some of those people came from the northwest to FWB. Cats don't have to be sailed in the ocean to show their abilities.

thom

Thom

On the point of feasibility, with sponsorship and the potential of prize money it becomes easier to amortize the cost of buying a boat.

As I stated above the formula 40 would never had existed if not for Prosail. The F40 is a huge expensive boat -- the F22 is (hopefully) going to be a less expensive yet as inspirational sailboat. Only time will tell but the sponsors, investors, officers and hopefully the sailors believe that the time has come for a semi-professional sailing circuit.

Steve

Steve-

Your point about sponsorship and prize money if well taken but in tis day of instant gratification; do you really think the money is going to keep coming in without some sign of success on the horizon. Say within a year. Catsailing is not Nascar... There are alot of places to put your money and make it work for you than on a relatively new concept to this next generation of catsailors. Unfortunately sailing is much more fun to do than watch.

Also is there a web site for this Formula 22 class?

thom

Thom

Hopefully there will be a formal announcement within the next 30-45 days.

As to who, what, when and where.

But, all parties know that there is a multiple year commitment required and are prepared to support the series for a reasonable amount of time.

Comparitivly speaking sailing is not nascar but, the financial commitment to one is significantly less than the other. That's one thing about sailing its green, user friendly, and inexpensive when compared to other racing sports.

As for a site, it should be up sometime around the announcement.

Steve

Do you really think a semi pro cct is feasable?

The sport is more fun to do than to watch and we don't have all that many people doing it.

Unlikely to get enough watching to justify sponsorship dollars.

You could argue you'd have a better chance of a semi pro cct on 14ft boats. Lower overheads making it more accessable bringing more participants and resulting in better return for the sponsors dollar.

Would that work? No I don't think so .We just don't have enough people interested in the sport.

I don't think there is a chance that beacause a boat is 22 ft long it would make the concept more likely to succeed.

After all the introduction of 49ers displaced the 18ft skiffs on TV (here) and the 49er is only 16ft. The close short course racing on the more agile 49er just made a better spectator sport.

Despite popular belief, bigger does not mean better.

Having said all that, I'd love to see the sport with a higher profile. Nothing would please me more than someone to prove me wrong.

Phil,

General thought was that the larger the boat the more talent could be pulled from sailing in general so that the series would be more like the IROC of sailing.

How would you like to see the big names in our sport (sailing)compete in a format that was fast, wired for video, and affordable for "gold" fleet non-pro's.

Steve

Its been my experience that if it looks like fun people will want to try it. The problem with catsailing is the scenes of boats capsized turn people off. I have heard this since the 1960s. "I don't want to turn over!" or "I don't want to get wet!"

As far as big names in sailing most people wouldn't know who they are if they sat next to them. Unless a way is found to make demonstrate how much fun catsailing is the sport will stay relatively the same I'm afraid. I've tried for 40 years to get people to try catsailing with about .3% liking it.

The major difference between catsailing and Nascar is the circle track that people can be next to. AT Texas Motor Speedway you can feel the cars go by the stands and the sounds are unbelieveably addictive. If I were 16 years old and had a coice of sailing or going to a Nascar race theres no question which I would do. One looks exciting and one looks like work to most people.

Another question is who these sponsors might be and who is their market. How can you keep them contributing??? Again if they don't see a profit they will pull the plug pronto. For example look at pro cycling...how many sponsors stick with that sport and its worldwide and the cost of most bikes is under $7500.

I wish I had an answer

thom

Thom,

Preliminary sponsors include an international bank, a national computer networking company, and a major software firm.

All of which are looking for new innovative ways to place their name in the marketplace in major markets.

The rest will be disclosed hopefully before the end of the month.

Steve

Majsteve,

I think the agility of the boat is more important than hull length when it comes to creating something exciting to watch.

Really close tackticle racing on a course that is not too big makes the best viewing.

A 22ft boat with a 12ft beam will tack slower than a shorter boat with an 8ft beam. So I think the wider beam will slow the action down and work against your objective of showcasing the sport.

Close racing is also much more important than who is racing

If you can get something like this off the ground the paticipants will develop a following not because of their past achievements but because of their performance in the series.

Having them racing is unlikely to be a draw card because Mr Joe average doesn't know them yet.

If you need to draw the big names to present a better case to your sponsors I think the way your project is promoted will be the key to drawing in the big names.

If you have people to support your initiative you are over the really big hurdle and I wish you the best of luck.

Regards,

Phill

I think it should be a boat that is severely overpowered and agile, as spectators want WIPE OUTS, close racing, and boats running into and over each other. People basically want carnage where the last boat standing wins. That is the only way Americans will sit down to watch our boring sport. Just PLEASE NO GARY JOBSON!

JC

Phil,

I tend to agree with you that more agile boats will be more excting to watch. I have owned two SuperCat (ARC)22s and loved them both, however they were not very good bouy racing boats. When my brother Tracy (a better sailor than I) sailed our SC22 and I sailed my old I-20 in bouy races the outcome was always the same. The more agile boat, the I-20, would win boat for boat! On the open water in a distance race, the SC22 would show its stuff and sail away from me on my I-20.

The idea of a circuit with $$$ purses is to enhance the specator's experience, therefore making sponsors more interested. More interested sponsors allow even more $$$ for the purses. The lighter, more agile 18 and 20 footers would be a lot more fun to watch, IMHO.

A test event for a planned purse circuit ($5k min purses) will take place in Va Beach on July 20 and 21in conjunction with the Chick's Beach Summer Sizzler. The GOLD Fleet boats (boats racing for the cash) will be limited to F-18HTs. The F-18HT class assigns spinnaker colors/schemes to the membership, just as they assign sail numbers. This is unique to catamaran racing classes and will make following individual participants much easier for the spectators. The agility of the F-18HTs is excellent and I feel unsurpassed in double-handed cats (IMHO) This dinghy-like agility will make the boats more fun to watch than slower tacking/manuvering SC 22s.

Other factors favoring F-18HTs over 22s for semi-pro circuit racing include, speed in set up and take-down (important at some downtown venues), managability for wider range of crews, and cost of the boats (you can almost buy 3 Jav 2/F-18Hts for the cost of 1 ARC 22 Carbon).

I am obviously biased toward the F-18HTs and the Javelin 2s, however my second choice would be Inter 20s, based on their availability, cost, set up time, and agility. During my days of racing I-20s, there was some talk to having a semi-pro circuit, but nothing ever materialized. Now, the bull has been grasped by the horns!

W.F,

I suppose, as the F18HT has the narrower beam and no jib, it should be quite agile and could make good viewing.

Whenever we run a regatta we invite the local TV station to come down and do some filming.They always give us time on the news each night. of the regatta.

The Local Radio stations also help spread the word and give updates each day and broadcast an interview when it's all over.

Also our publicity officer usually gets articles published in several Sailing magazines.

We do the best we can with what we have to work with.

I'd imagine a $5000 prize, even if it were only AUs dollars, in itself would get us more attention and air time.

I'd be interested to here how your test event goes.

Good Luck.

W.F.

How deep are you planning to go on the purse. Is that 5K for the entire event paid over X finishes or is that 5K for the winner??

Semi-pro racing is an interesting thing for this sport (sailing in general). The detirming factor for any event is the size of the course and the number of boats racing in each fleet with the proximity of the boats to the spectators. IE how close can you get to the guys on the boats. The best event will have to bring the action to the spectators not the boats to the beach.

One of the things the the F22 series has worked on for better than a year is how to make that happen.

As for action, the F22 should be relative to the designs being brought to the event. The SC22 is a good design but I believe that the newer designs will be faster, more agile, and exciting. Just as the evolution has happened in the 18 foot range. THe target goat is to place approximately 40 boats on the starting line with an occasional increase to 50 boats.

Yes that is ambitous but with the right boats and the right financial incentives the sponsors and staff believe that it is achievable. Series racing would not fully begin until probably 2004 so that the boats could be built and teams fully organized. The series is designed to be multi year (3 year minimum) with approximately 10 events held a year spaced about 3 weeks apart.

Builders interested in design criteria are encouraged to respond. Builders are required to carry product liability insurance on boats sold and raced with a minimum of $1m coverage.

Additionally, teams will be required to register the vin number in order to be assigned a hull/sail number and register their team name/colors(which will be tighly controlled and replication limited to multi boat teams) . All team names must be trademarked and are the sole-property of the team. However, rights to usage will be transferred to the F22 series on an annual basis.

Sailors must be ISAF registered and in good standing.

This is some of the basic information.

Steve