Hobie "banning" A Cats at races? What and Why?

They probably requested a class start and were told No! We don't do that. Hobie policy has been to allow one open class at hobie regattas. What the regatta organizors do is another matter altogether.

As Mark said, the OFFICIAL NAHCA recommended policy(subject to change at any time) is only one start for ALL non-Hobies at Hobie Fleet or Hobie Points regattas if the sponsoring Hobie Fleet wants to.
NAHCA does not allow any non-Hobies to participate in any way at events which NAHCA is involved such as NA's, National's, or Mid-Winters.
Most Hobie Fleets welcome any and all boats.
Here in Hobie Division 9, almost all of our regattas are open. (some people don't like keeping times)

There is a big difference in getting a "start" and getting scored as a Class.
We usually start several Hobie Classes together, but score them separately.
If four or more A Class showed up at a regatta, they deserve to be SCORED as a Class.
If they bothered to actually preregister in time, they deserve trophies.(that goes for any Class)

I would be interested to know in what context this excerpt came from - do you have the entire text or the topic he was responding to?
For major events - Area championships for example - HobieCat and NAHCA require Hobie only. I'd love to race my hobie 16 at a J 24 event - but they won't let me. Thus - the NOR for some events require hobie only.

Two points
What other national class attempts to control local clubs by telling them NOT to invite other classes? Your J24 example is a poor one. The local club is organizing the regatta and making choices that optimize the success of the event for the club and the participants.

Hobie Cat Corp pays money for these regattas and its appropriate for them to require restricted participation. Sort of like Budweiser beer buying the rights to the Super bowl and not allowing Coors to advertise.

......................that's my point.

Here is the full text of the letter. Regarding the statement that Hobie "pays" for the events, that may be in error. Divison 4 is "sailor sponsored". I fully understand that a non Hobie not be invited to a "nationals" but for local racing....?

Gentlemen,
I understand that you are all purchasing A Cats for the coming season. A great boat. I had the privilege of managing the 2002 A Cat World Championship in Martha's Vineyard. If I were 20 years younger 30 lbs lighter and tall I would be very tempted to race this boat. It is very quick in most conditions. I noticed that all the top competitors were under 175 lbs so I guess at that level, like most boats it pays to be light.
Hopefully you will all still retain a Hobie Cat so that you will be able to come and play with us at Hobie Events. We would hate to miss your smiling faces. Best of luck in your new endeavor.
Please be advised that the A Cat will not be permitted to race in Hobie events anywhere in the world. This will include North America and Division 4.
Regards,
Paul Ulibarri,
President, International Hobie Class Association

Yep - that's the attitude you get on the national and international level...we can go into why that's a bad attitude but I will resist. However, you will find on the local level that this attitude (although it also finds it's way into the NAHCA racing instructions) is largely ignored. Face it, if you want attendance at your regatta (which IS the focus of must regatta organizers) you'll let everybody play.

Jake,
Don't resist. WHY is it a bad attitude on the national and international levels?

HEY! Mary's back! I hope the move is going well!

I don't think it's a bad attitude on the international and even national scale. These events draw enough interest that they do not live or die by attendance. The atmosphere at these events is about one design competition amongst a large number of boats and I think it's fair to boast a single manufacturer here. I don't think it would be detrimental to include an open class as long as it remained minor when compared to the overall event.

However, the arrogance in that letter makes me ill. On the local level (that these guys have apparently lost touch with) some of our regattas are so small that it's probably the worst thing you can do for our sport to exclude all but one manufacturer. By far NAHCA has the largest regatta structure in the U.S. and because of that they inherit an important position with a lot of leverage and responsibility over our sport in general. I really feel that in order to achieve success for our sport and for all manufacturers, especially Hobie, we need an open atmosphere for beach cat racing. Exclusion on the local level is not going to help build our sport because it will splinter the existing cells of activity. Heck, only 1/3 or our local "Hobie" fleet are actually Hobies (and that's a conservative figure)! What are we supposed to do? Exclude 2/3 of our fleet, including the commodore, from racing our events? Get real. If this policy was ever actually enforced on the local level, it would be the death of a very significant number of Hobie fleets.

I understand that they are trying to build brand loyalty with this policy. Hobie has an interesting position in the industry with the most boats but some of the most stale designs. This is not because they can't design a boat but because of the very nature of one design and their admirable firm adherence to it. They're trying to protect their market share, of what might appear on the outside to be inferior designs*, by leveraging their racing structure to shield their non-evolving one-designs. At the same time, Hobie Europe is building some highly competitive and evolving boats (F18 Tiger, Fox, etc.) to cover all the bases. The expense of this exclusion policy is only going to contribute further to the decline of cat sailing in the U.S. - even to the detriment of Hobie and to the formula racing they've recently prescribed. This whole thing really fired me up when it came out a little over a year ago but I have been relieved that most local folks have, and will continue to, ignore it.

*by "inferior designs" I mean only on a performance/racing level. Things like downhaul and mainsheet purchase, outhauls, jib systems, sail material etc. I do believe that Hobie builds very durable, dependable, high quality, family friendly boats but when compared to the like of Nacra, Inter, Marstrom, Taipan, etc. the boats are not as serious speed machines and have not been allowed to evolve into them.

I am confused. "Please be advised that the A Cat will not be permitted to race in Hobie events anywhere in the world. This will include North America and Division 4." This is NOT what NAHCA said after their study of the open class vs closed event issue. I've certainly seen A-Cats at Div 11 Points events (with open-class starts announced in the NOR). If he means "HOBIE" events as Hobie-sponsored nationals and regionals, then Hobie has that right.

Had not seen a Hobie catalogue since the Miracle 20 was the new kid.(with two siblings 16 & 18). Saw one yesterday and boy can you waterdown a class! Roto Junk for every occasion at Hobie foam core prices. So which is it? One design (with lowered overhead and producing the 16 only), or selling boats? I think the name of the game is making money with the Hobie name and leverage. Subsequently, I do not feel any brand Loyalty.

so you won't accuse me of any hidden agenda, for the record, i am a supporter to keeping hobie events purely hobie (i.e. not x-class). here are my reasons so you can better understand at least one point of view.

as i see it, there are two issues. the first, and probably the biggest, is the question of one-design racing vx. handicap. i race big boats handicap, but personally prefer to race dinghies one-design. if the hobie events are open to x-class, the tendency is to draw sailors away to non-hobie boats, thereby depleting the one-design racing. this is due to the claim made earlier -- non-hobies tend to be faster boats. when racing, sailors like to be ahead, even at the cost of possibly losing out on corrected time. so over time, an x-fleet will draw sailors away from the hobie fleet and into the x-fleet. as a one-design proponent, i would like to preserve fleet sizes because that is really the carrot to one-design racing -- large classes.

hobies, despite whatever design flaws, slowness, or other poking they may take, have endured as a one-design class for nearly 40 years. i am not sure, long-term, that this beach cat craze -- particularly with respect to spinnaker boats -- will survive. it may, i don't know. but with all of the various manufacturers splintering the market, it puts increased pressure on the cohesiveness. in any case, hobie has already weathered that stage. i would prefer that hobie stay out of the x-class thing until such time that it matures and develops into a long-term class.

second -- and i know this is gonna sound corny and open me up to all kinds of chiding -- there is a magic that is lost when x-class comes to a hobie regatta. the term 'hobie way of life' refers to that unexplainable magic. i don't expect anyone except a small group of hobie sailors to understand what i am talking about -- particularly non-hobie sailors. but for me, it is an important issue.

all of the other beach cats are wonderful boats. i don't hold any grudges. indeed, i think many of them are probably superior to the hobie cat. but for this one-design sailor, hobie cat has the fleet. heck, i'd sail a (catamaran!!) bathtub, if it was one design with a large fleet!!

i realize some areas of the country aren't that strong in hobie cats. maybe in those areas the hobies can race handicap in non-hobie cat races, i dunno. in any case, i think we apply a little darwinian theory to those situations and let nature and the market takes its course.

I've just got to say something here. I raced a Hobie 16 for ten years and loved the boat and the people. I raced in Hobie Division Ten races and CRAM races. Different groups of people - same great atmosphere. What is the difference between an all Hobie event and an open event where one design or Formula fleets are broken out? And God help us with the F18 concept. This must be pure blasphemy to a Hobier racer - Hobies and Nacras and Mysteres racing head to head with no handicap! With our sport as small as it is, I just can't believe this attitude prevails. I now race a Nacra F18 and really enjoy racing against other F18s. As far as I can tell they boats seem to be equivelant and the best racers win regardless of boat type. Just the way I want it. Doesn't it make sense to all get together and enjoy the sport of catamaran racing? I know the Hobie Way of Life and it is absolutely no different when you change boat brands. Still the same great racing and people.

Roger

Hello Peter

you wrote

Just for kicks, which one design hobie class are you talking about with this great one design racing and which faster boat is causing the demise of this hobie one design racing in your area?

Wave
Bigger Wave
Hobie 14,
Hobie 14 sport
Hobie 16
Hobie 16 with spin
Hobie 17
Hobie 17 sport
Hobie FXone
Hobie 18
Hobie 18 with wings,
Hobie 18SX
Hobie21
Hobie20
Hobie Tiger
Hobie Fox

Using your logic... the problem is not X boats racing on the course provided by other builders... Its the Hobie cat company that has split and split and split the racing market that you should target for blame.

Your solution for growing or preserving one design racing is even more interesting.

If you believe in your darwinian model of promoting one design racing... you should as a member of the largest one design fleet in your area decide NOT to invite the other Hobie AND X boat classes to your regatta circuit. Since these other classes are much smaller, they probably won't be able to survive .... (who would want to join a 5 boat fleet that also must organize and run their racing circuit). IF the other classes survive... great. But you really hope that they don't and will dump their class and join you on your favorite hobie cat for one design racing.
Well... its a plan (and used by yacht clubs all the time to preserve one design classes for as long as possible)! You might loose some friends over it though.

You conflate the Hobie Cat company's interest with your interest as a one design racer. Most one design racing classes have names like "A cat Class association" and they promote racing of their class and don't worry about asking their hosting clubs to exclude other classes. When you lump the aforementioned classes into one huge class association, organized in a completely undemocratic structure, and pretends that a one size fit's all solution is good for the aforementioned sailors in these classes you wind up banning the wrong things, like other cat racing classes supporting your member club's events.

Ah well, I guess, we should not have loaned our X class fleet marks to the Hobie club at Rehobath for the Hobie 16 Nationals or support their regattas with up to 20 % of their attendance. (NOT)

I hope you don't take this comment as a personal attack but the NAHCA logic you espouse is just absurd nonsense.

Take Care
Mark

Mike, what prompted you to comunicate with PU regarding his return comment? He is right as others have stated the same thread as to the by-laws not allowing non-hobie boats to compete with hobie's. You've enjoyed the participation with other x-class racers at our hobie div 4 events, except the specific nahca posted hobie only events. What is your goal here? Are you trying to stir up a favorable response to flag before our local club members? To what end? I personally believe that the nahca/ihca has had an oportunity for several years to promote all classes and persuade hobie manufacturers to produce a competitive high tech product, yet have chosen not to do so. I hope within my lifetime that we as an organization will become the NAMHA representing all one-design multi-hull classes and provide equal billing at all events (I have a dream). I don't think PU is stating that you won't be allowed at our events, not his decision, but that you may not be recognized as a one-design class with eaqual billing (seperate starts and the like). We've discussed this and will continue to discuss it in a calm fashion so as not to splinter the club membership. It will be a slow process but I think an eventuality, please give it time. The nahca has been around for about 30 years, I think. It'll take our local club members a couple to settle this issue and probably several years of continued hobie owners lowered participation to convince the nahca.

There was no specific action taken to prompt this letter. Other than the arrival of A's to the area, and the action of other sailors buying A's. Notice that the letter says "The A cat is not allowed"....no mention of "X" class. The point of the letter was to "poll" other areas of the nation to see how they run their area regattas.

As I have had the opportunity this year to travel to different parts and sail, I have noticed "hobie" events have multiple starts (non hobie) and there does not seem to be a problem. Further, the idea is not to race the A against hobie boats (and I have never objected to the Area Champ race being hobie only). It was to get some 1d racing going in a competitive fleet. If we must use skiff/ dinghy fleets in the area to race, well...then so be it. I would certainly miss the great people at the Hobie events. Furthermore, this year I tried to show that this fleet would not be a "user only" fleet. Fellow Division 4 sailor, my wife helped out at almost every race this year. Even the races I did not attend, she attended alone and helped.

All of a sudden, I (and others) get this email saying, great boat, but by the way, it is not allowed

So, not trying to stir the pot, just wanted to get a national feel for how other fleets are recognizing the A, since it was the A, and not the X-class that was addressed in the letter.

Regards,

M

I have been silent on this subject waiting for an explanation from NAHCA. I will give the facts and answers to the questions many have expressed.
This e-mail was sent to seven sailors who Paul Ulibarri perceived as having recently ordered A-Cats. In reality, his list was in error. Some on the list have ordered the boats, others have not. There are seven boats on order. Four belong to current Hobie owners, one to an Inter 20 owner, and two are boats for monohull sailors. It is of extreme importance to know who was CC'd on the e-mail which you have all read. The list includes: Doug Skidmore (president of Hobie US), Rich McVeigh (NAHCA Chairman), Laura Sullivan (NAHCA 1st Chair and Div 4 Chairman), Roger Brown (NAHCA 2nd Vice Chair), and Hobie Cats Northwest(a Hobie dealer in Div.4).
There was no question as to a separate start or any other consideration to be given to this group. To put it simply, Paul Ulibarri somehow caught wind that there were some A-cats on order and responded with the letter you have all read. Let me repeat, NOBODY who has one of these boats on order has contacted P.U., NAHCA, or Division 4 asking for ANYTHING. X-class racing has been allowed in Division 4 for several years. The A-Cat group was planning on just starting along with the other boats in X-class.
After receiving this e-mail from P.U.,I immediately called Laura Sullivan, Division 4 Chairman and NAHCA 1st VIce Chair. Here is the answer she sent me early last week:
"I sent off some e-mails last night trying to figure out what all was going on with regards to Paul Ulibarri's latest note. From what I'm understanding this evening, Paul asked the IHCA rules committee to check up on the allowing A class boats in Hobie Regattas. It seems as though there is already something on the books that does not allow A cats to sail at Hobie Regattas".

"Paul is the IHCA President, and I'm sure he will be informing and enforcing this ruling on NAHCA. What does this mean for the X class? I don't know..."

I spoke with Laura, and as of today Rich McVeigh has not responded to her questions, as well as not getting a reply from Erik Olsen - IHCA Rules Committee Chair.
I guess, as Peter Nelson explains it, now racing an X-class boat removes the "magic" that was once surrounding me (even though my son and I have held 5 National Hobie titles,and still own 4 Hobies). I would also like to add that my wife and I have held an office in either Hobie fleet 72, Division 4, or both, every year for the last 20 years.
At this point, I do not know what is happening, or what might happen at the AGM during the 16 CC's starting later this month. Is this going to be some kind of mandate handed down from above, something that is to be discussed, or is it just someone blowing off some steam? I do not have those answers. Is this some attack on just one boat, the A- Cat, or is it all X-class? Again, I have no idea, but if they can exclude one boat today, it may be your boat tomorrow. You may want to discuss the situation with your voting Division reps to make them better prepared to vote your fleet's desires, if the topic comes up at the AGM in a couple of weeks.

Ken Marshack
Hobie 14
Hobie 14 Turbo
Hobie 18 15990
Jav 18HT USA10
A-Cat, to be delivered...

4 A Class boats raced in a 13 boat open fleet with 4 Hobie 20's and a Hobie 16 with spin, Dart 18s Taipan's, F18HT's and Inter 20's this weekend at the Hobie Gunpowder II regatta. Rich McVeigh raced in the Hobie 16 class and did not raise the issue.

Perhaps, this is just a SNAFU caused by crossed lines of communicaton (I hope)

Personally, I think the racing would have been better with a portsmouth class of the 3 Hobie 18' + 1 Hobie 14 + 7 Hobie 17's, + 1 Dart 18 + 1 Hobie 16 with spin for a 13 boat start with most of the boats rated between 75.0 and 72.0! (The 17's and 18's, and 14's started together)

Take Care
Mark

It appears to me that Mr Ulibarri has taken on the clothing of such as Bill Clinton, Sadam Hussein, et al, and is simply issuing executive orders -- perhaps the reason he has been so polically active over the years in order to attain the position of Grand Pupah (sp?)of Hobiedom.
How could he single out one class of boats and dictate that they cannot ever race in any Hobie Regatta? I know that our Hobie Fleet will not tolerate such edicts and will now bend over backwards to accomodate this very fast growing class of A-Boats. And just like the ladies of the mod area, instead of burning bras, perhaps wwe should start burning our Hobies.
Thorns to Mr Ulibarri for such an unprompted email. He should be ashamed.

Guess this is a good example of why a bunch of folks got together a year or so ago and brought NAMSA back out of the closet. It appears that we really do need a multihull governing body that listens to its constituents.

Nevermore,
Edgar

I'm stirring the pot without intention to do so or maybe I do. What would be the process/requirement to obtain a national vote on any subject requiring one before the NAHCA? I believe now, after rejecting the idea a couple years ago to bring in the person that wanted to chair the NAHCA whom wanted to extend an invitation to non-hobies. I've relized the effect of my resentment at the time has helped to cripple the potential influx of participation to this activity. Perhaps a national campaign from a grassroots level is what's needed? I am fickle.

In my case at least, I dropped my NAHCA membership after all this 'x-boat' stuff started. If a vote ever came to be, I'ld probably join again just so I could vote. I imagine that a number of folks that felt that x-boats should be welcomed are no longer NAHCA members - so the results might be a bit skewed (I really have no idea if that might be a significant number).

Jake,
I'm a NAHCA member, devoted to one-design (and frustrated a great deal because its hard to always get enough H20s in my area out) and I'm not against the open class. I also think Mark Schneider over dramatizes the point a little by listing all the boats Hobie makes; no one really sees anywhere close to all those boats at a regatta. However, he missed the Getaway which right now is the largest selling Hobie model states-side. Someday those recreation sailors will want to race their boats.

The reality is that no matter how much any of us stirs the pot, pro open class or con open class, the status quo will remain for some time. And that is the Hobie fleet/division structure will continue to provide most of the framework for catamaran racing and will continue promoting one design while alowing an open class to race portsmouth style in order to fill out the regatta.

As Mark mentioned, we just finished a regatta at Gunpowder where 4 H20s raced one another while starting in the open fleet. Was it ideal? No. Its no fun to get off the line with an A cat on your lee bow knowing that in a few minutes he will be gassing you and you will have to tack away. I don't want to race the A cat, I want to race the H20 on the other side of him. But its all part of the game; avoiding obstacles while concentrating on the other H20s. It certainly makes you plan ahead so as to not get blanketed by a spin boat coming off of A mark thereby allowing the H20 behind you to catch up or pass. We should all stir the pot less and enjoy each other's company. Its the "is, what is".

David,

I'm with you. I think that in general the x-boaters understand their place at these events and that there are people fighting for regional Hobie points. I try to stay out of those guys way as much as possible in consideration of that. I can identify with Hobie Class racing and am planning to buy a Hobie 17 next spring so I can jump in there with our local guys. SEE! letting me race my NACRA at NAHCA events actually influenced me to buy another Hobie brand boat. There are advantages to inviting x-boats. However, if Paul U. keeps up this crap I might just look again at that Inter-17 instead.

Hi David

My point of listing all of the Hobies in order of increasing speed was simply to refute the argument that one design Hobie sailors of slower boats were envious of the faster X class boats which was causing the demise of one design racing. Ergo... eliminate the X class as a source of temptation. Hobie has attempted to sell many faster boats over the years (usually with the Hobie one design mantra)

I have to tell you... I don't understand how a one design fleet of 1, EG Hobie 14 at GP II or 1 H20 at Barnegat is promoting one design racing.

In my view... this is a failure of our organization to make good on this one design promise. If we can't deliver one design racing...we should not pretend that we are running a one design race. Eventually people get annoyed and quit!

For example, CBYRA insists on at least 7 boats pre registered and on the line before they will schedule a one design start (solves your rounding problem with a spin boat) .... otherwise.. you are in a PHRF class.

When does "frustrated a great deal because its hard to always get enough H20s in my area out" result in the" Ah the hell with it... this is no fun... I will get a big boat" set in. If I am the single boat at a regatta...WHY would I return?

Don't you think we should try to pro actively change things (ANYTHING) BEFORE that outcome? (IMO) About the only thing we have control over here is the schedule. My suggestion is that each fleet of similar boats or one design boats decide what schedule they can reasonably sustain and announce it. For example, The Hobie 20's will support X, Y and Z regattas out of the 6 or so Division regattas. ...and so on for the Spinaker boats (I20's and F18's and F18HT's) A boats etc etc. Perhaps, you can beat the drum and get some of the boats in the weeds out for this much smaller schedule.

Pre registration offers TREMENDOUS advantages to the organizers. (EG the scoring progam can automatically suck in the pre registered sailors saving HOURS of time) If you must pre register... you are likely to ensure that your schedule permits you to go because you have made this commitment and your money will be forfeit if you don't. Perhaps we should set up a internet based preregistration system which takes payments by credit card. If you want to pay at the gate... Fine but you will pay a hefty premium for your convience and for our hassle of registering you at the door (non existant volunteers). And on the plus side.. ONLine lists of pre registered sailors usually drums up interest and support.

Of course, I am all for combining these small psuodo one design classes with similar performance open boats and going Portsmouth racing in this day and age. PS the Hobie 18's have voiced this complaint about Hobie 17's on the start line for years!)

One thing we can count on... if we continue operating the same way... we can count on the same results.

Look forward to any suggestions that you may have

Take care
Mark

(I just know that this hurricane is going south and Saturday and Sunday will be top 10 sailing days of the year... Sigh)

Jake,
I don't think Paul's comment is really going anywhere as the local fleets that run the races are going to continue doing what they feel is best for them. So go ahead and get that H17. It forms the most stable turnout in the mid-Atlantic area next to the 16s.

Mark, my frustration won't necessarily lead me to a big boat; the same situations exist there, only one has spent a lot more money. PHRF or portsmouth is still handicap racing and you have to get out the calculator at the end to see who won. My frustrations also wouldn't necessarily lead me to give up my H20 for another big boat as the lack of critical mass for one-design racing exists all through the big cat classes, with pockets of exceptions, of course.

You may have a good point with pre-registration although I would be concerned about unintended consequences of making the commitment to attend harder--wouldn't want to see fewer people showing up. The idea of each design in a region getting their skippers together to decide on which races they will support is a great one. Its what I hoped to accomplish this year with our local H20 series. The results are not conclusive and not terribly encouraging. But I think this idea has potential. Last year Chris and I proposed fleet captains for each class in the division. The captains would lead the drive to generate more attendance. The idea is sound, but never got off the ground. Each division and its corresponding fleets should take a serious look at how many skippers are going to division races. Our fleet, for example, has a very low attendance record for division racing. Focusing on fewer races that skippers would actually attend would be a good step forward. Maybe its not the same regattas for each class, but that's fine. Each class would be more assured of starts and good competition at the regattas they do attend. Your efforts in this area, through CRAC, are very much appreciated.

BTW, how about all CRAC sailors get together at Galesville on Sunday for a pick up race? Or, if they're racing at Soloman's, we go down there and blitz the Lightnings?

David
H20

I'm still getting the H17 - that stuff just really iritates me! I continue to have crew reliability problems and the H17 is the perfect answer. I plan to race the 6.0 (unless a large H17 turnout is expected) and if crew bails at the last minute, I just hook up the 17 instead. Viola!

Jake,

This attitude makes me very ill as well. I do not feel you will ever be unwelcome at one of our division races. Good luck on finding a 17, I have also heard our top Hobie 20 sailor and son are going to 17s. Should be a great fleet next year.

Jake,Glad to see you are joining the growing fleet of Hobie 17's. IMHO it is a great boat, but I have raced one since 1987, and my son his since 1989. BTW the solution to problems at the windard mark is the additon of the offset mark. This helps prevent boats, especially spin boats, from coming down on boats going to the mark.

Caleb Tarleton

Man... you guys have WAY too much time on your hands.

My personal perspective?

Hobie Alter had a great idea and started something wonderful. It has now gone a bit off course wether from need or not... It is now a problem. Even considering X class is damaging to the original concept. The concept of "you want to have some real fun? Join us and sail a Hobie at a HOBIE event". Not join us and sail... join us and sail a HOBIE. If they had allowed just any boat in the events early on... it would have been a total failure. Think about it.