Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC

Is there anything in writing to support this?

From the documents I see (NOR and HCA class rules), there is no mention of this; therefore, Hobie sails would be required. Am I missing something?

Mike

Checking with others now, but am sure I was allowed to sail without a Hobie sail.

I don't doubt it happened for you before, just looking for an official (documented) policy, and not seeing it.

I know that HCA has struggled with this over the years, even allowing IWCA rules at Madcatter once. But, it's not obvious that it's allowed at all events.

Mike

Mike,

I checked with Matt Bounds and he confirmed there is no one time exception. There was just probably a

gentleman's agreement

that allowed me to sail. I was incorrect on that point. Just to hate to lose some of this area's best wave sailor b/c they do not have any Hobie legal sails. Sure wish all sailors could be allowed as long as the sails measure into class rules.

Right. Well the problem is that there are two classes, each with its own set of rules. Since the HCA rules don't give measurements, there's no way to

measure in.

The big joke is when someone shows up with a giant squaretop and claims he's racing one design. The Wave shouldn't be turned into a formula class.

Mike

Turned into?

History - it's important. The IWCA was formed out of necessity when HCA had no interest in the Wave as a class, but there were a lot of people racing them anyway. Because it had not been a racing class in HCA or Hobie Cat's eyes, there were a great many different sails out there, all made by Hobie Cat - Dacron, Mylar, different cuts and sizes, Sunkist, Coca Cola, etc. The IWCA adopted a single sail size, based on Hobie Cat's recommended specs. After a few years of successful events, the HCA decided to write new rules, with a crew and boat weight specified, and Hobie-only parts, thus setting up the situation of two, competing classes for a single boat.

OSYC is a fantastic venue and a wonderful organization - I'm sure they will host a quality event.

Yes, history. Might as well be ancient history. Any sail made by HC would still be legal.

It has been pointed out several timed that the problems of the past have long been resolved by the factory. This is just an excuse to allow justification for weight ranging sails on this boat.

Mike

We see this differently - if you had gone to the class and been rebuffed (roundly), started your own thing and seen it take off, you might not feel the same way or chose the same words.

FWIW, I was in the room and was disappointed with the decision. I applaud the tenacity of the IWCA founders to see it through, but will never agree with the sail policy, as it creates an arms race that is divisive and distracting.

I think everyone's goal is to combine forces and have bigger events. Here's a compromise: If we all agree that HCC has addressed the sail quality and consistency (Rick has agreed to this point here); let's grandfather in all sails (from all makers) and require HCC sails going forward.

Mile

Mike,

I'm not understanding your position here. You were disappointed with the HCA decision? How so? You next sentence states that you will never agree with the sail policy. So what exactly was it that you were you disappointed in?

Divisive and distracting? HCA stepping in and claiming jurisdiction after IWCA had been established and proven successful is what has created divisiveness.

Kevin

The sail thing really hasn't been that big of a deal. They're not that expensive.

Disappointed that the HCA left a group of Hobie Cat sailors out. Plain and simple.

HCA isn't jumping in and claiming anything. They eventually came around and established class rules at the request of some members. They are hosting events using those rules, no one is forced to go.

This entire conversation is proof enough of the divisiveness of the issue. I've offered a potential solution; if all anyone wants is to prove their side is right, this will never move forward.

Mike

If the HCA is willing to invite the F18 class to one of their major events (something that, to me, seems to be in direct conflict with the HCA's

Hobie only

edict), then why the reluctance to invite the IWCA?

sm

F18s at an Area Championship is a huge change.

Mike

I agree. It is a huge change that seems to fly in direct oppostion to the

Hobie Edict.

The IWCA is essentially the

Wave Formula Class

- one platform, open sail design with specific measurement requirements.

So if the HCA is willing to break their Hobie Only rule with regard to the F18 class, why wouldn't they do the same with the wave class? As I see it, the HCA likely realized that they're never going to get significant participation from their F18 classes unless they invite the entire F18 fleet to their regattas. It seems to me the same reasoning should apply the the Wave - very unlikely the HCA is ever going to get significant Wave attendance unless they break their own rules again and open up regattas to the IWCA.

If you're going to break your own rules, you might as well do it consistently.

sm

Wish you had ended your post right there, Robbie!

It's an HCA event. Read the HCA rules (e.g., for the Wave class) and policies (e.g., for the F-18s). You aren't going to get

all the boats you can

at this event.....only the ones that comply with HCA rules and policies. Otherwise, they are subject to being DSQed (as I expect you were with an

exception

/

gentleman's agreement

at NAs). I'm guessing they'd just rather attend some other event instead.

Rules are rules........why drag OSYC into this recurring **** storm? And over Waves, no less....Waves!

So how exactly does including the F18 class at an HCA area championship comply with the HCA's rules and strict one-design policy?

Does this regatta now set a prescedent for all future HCA events?

sm

Because we're all accustomed to pitching in and running regattas / being involved with the decisions in our small sport, it's pretty easy for us to forget that this is Hobie's event. They run it as they see fit and own that privilege. We don't have to like it.

I don't agree with several of the decisions/approaches, but in the end, it's their proverbial ball game and you can support/not support by controlling whether or not you attend. This is ultimately how restrictive/nonrestrictive decisions are made. They can clearly get the support for the direction they're heading - this is still a well attended event.

The F-18 policy has been in affect for quite some time. I'm not sure how often it has been utilized, but it certainly is nothing specific to this event (no precedent):

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/sit... o/F18-RegattaInclusionPolicy01-06-10.pdf

I don't even have strong opinions either way about

The Edict,

but I hate that the crap has to start flying (from both sides) anytime anything remotely related is posted here. My opinion is that, if one doesn't like the rules, policies, etc. of an organization, business, club, or regatta, one should work with/in the associated structure to change it. If that doesn't work, one should just avoid it. The endless ranting and misinformation (from both sides) here rarely does any good and often seems to (inappropriately) end up making things worse for the poor-bastard organization, business, club, or regatta that was just trying to do their thing! I don't want to see that happen to OSYC, where a lot of hard-working people (including Robbie) put on the best (mostly open/rarely Hobie) regattas in my area!

How about a parlay? The tiller extension may play a role in the final answer. The IWCA Class Rules have fit into the desires of the Wave owners along the Gulf Coast of the Florida panhandle and elswhere, especially in MS. Many of the Waves out of OSYC have sails made at local mom and pop sail lofts along the coast. The sails are being cut within the Rules for sail area.

Now, the tiller extension becomes debatable when trying to arrive at a fair means of allowing more sailors to attend the event.

In that the Formula 18 Class is 'open,' does a compromise regarding the Wave Class Rules and the IWCA Rules make sense? In order to have as many competitors on the starting line as possible, why not allow the mom and pop sails and hold the ground on the tiller extension? NO tillies!

OSYC has a long legacy of Hobie support, and the Wave Class could fill Biloxi Bay. Let's not be exclusive much longer. Ya never know who you might meet at the Hobie Midwinters East <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

That's kinda what I was saying...Let it be...it is what it is. Hobie will run the regattas the way Hobie wants and it would be nice to see us have an environment where they can post a regatta announcement on here without getting shot at. Just don't expect to lob a mortar and not get return fire. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Interesting. Thanks.

sm

Jake, All

The problem is this

When you view sailboat regattas as...

buying or selling a service

... you can let the consumer choose... just as you propose.

However,
When sailboat regattas are run by volunteers (like Robbie) as part of a small catsailing community...essentially a national club... they have a right to speak up about policies that divide and shrink their event.

Robbie just has it wrong... The Hobie edict is not the problem here... (the edict is a dead issue for the most part)

The real problem is that the Wave morass is really one of rules that give fair competition coupled with low maintenance... (and the lack of consensus there of)... This deal is not at all about the Hobie edict of kicking some fleets (eg Open class or any other OD cat fleet) out of the events they run or sanction for points.

Every season that ticks by without the sailors in the various WAVE camps reaching an agreement on fair competition means lower turnouts and more noise.

otherwise known as SNAFU!!

Robbie,
Nobody would bat an eye if an F18 faction wanted to race at Hobie midwinters but refused to follow the class measurement rules. No certificate... no entry, no one time exceptions.

Mike had a reasonable proposal... grandfather sails and then use factory sails (every new boat comes with one) .... (Note that you can't even drill a new hole in the new N17 Olympic boat.

other possibilities.... you could provide onsite measurement for free provided by the outside Wave class members.... The yacht club is not involved in your measurement issues, class membership enforcement, or even the crazy liablity insurance requirements that some classes dictate.

Go RAVENS!!

Bert, you do know that tiller extensions are legal, right?

IWCA rule 9.8

IHCA Wave rule 1.3

Mike

If someone is really passionate about racing Wave's this is the locgical solution, be HCA and IWCA compliant by owning 2 sails.

I know people who do just that.

All the arguments about saving money and improving on inconsistencies go out the window when guys buy brand new boats (with factory sails) and brand new non-Hobie sails at the same time. When asked why, the answer is

Because it's faster.

Arms race, defined.

Mike

Because the MWE at OSYC is not receiving an Area Championship grant, that's why. There is no precedent being set here. Do you see the words

Area Championships

anywhere on the NOR?

We did this to try and make some peace. The od rule came about and it took us a while to get used to it. We made a small kink in the armor with the F18 amendment and the very successful yacht club rule.
When I was chair of HCA- I included IWCA waves at our MWE events. I think it was 4 of them. Totally exercised executive power. Went right to my head. Nobody but me authorized it or condoned. This is where the confusion is coming from. I totally broke the rule repeatedly and feel I Owe the wave people an apology for making this worse rather than better. Current admin is playing by HCA rules as they should. I hope the F18 people come out in force to OSYC and can take advantage of the facility and enjoy the 3 day event.
Cw

No, but the NOR is listed in the Area Champs section of the website.

I've always felt that the rules are really about maintaining the integrity of the class and its events. Making it all about the money reflects poorly on the class and the company.

Mike