How many really don't like one-design racing?

Look Wouty or whatever your name is. We are trying to have an intelligent discussion here without getting worked up about it. So why do you always have too much to say?

Chris,

My Dad has told me this same story many times...he sailed that day (Geoff Dobbs) and also recalls a young crew (son of Reg?) getting hypothermia from the very cold water being stirred up from 10 feet below.

Must have been a day to remember...

Mike.

That sounds like what happened to Rick White (not Reg). Rick was sailing with his son Todd, who was about 12 years old, around that time. But Rick says he did not go to CORK that year and that Todd's hypothermia happened at the Tornado Worlds in Toronto. So maybe it is a different incident.

Hi Wouter,

This 23.48 knot record was an average speed over the course which was the first and as far as I know, the only Bacardi Speed blast nearly 8 years ago.

I will try and find some info about other speed runs involving Ts and what the fastest recorded time is.

However this was an average speed at one event.... The Tornado class makes claims of 33+ knots. It in know way mentions this is an average over a set course. I have seen and been on Ts during big reaches in as much as 36 knot average winds with gusts of upto 42 (recorded). However we never had a GPS on board and nobody was timing us or any others. Just because you or I have not seen it recorded, mean we can call BS. Some of the runs I have seen and done may well be no where near the quickest runs ever achieved on a cat. However despite not measuring our speed or others...... It was F*%$ing quick and would not doupt it was close to 30 knots peak.

Before calling BS, you should find out who made the claims, where it was and how it was measured.

Also the Tornado is well known for its londlivety, with an International Life span of 7 to 10 years where as most other OD production boats are 1 to 3.

That is why they are 50 % to nearly twice the price of simular beach cats. The class sailors, whome are some of the best in the world, have demanded stronger, stiffer boats and were willing to pay more for it. With Marstroms success in producing a superiour product to other manufactures have see the Tornado class develop into nearly a SMOD.

For any other maufacture to set up and produce a product equal to or superiour to Marstrom would be a huge capital outlay and not worth it. I believe Reg White who's product domiated the Tornado class before the rise of the Marstrom, has recently built a few new Ts for some French sailors with no major sucsess.

I think the longlivety of the Marstom combined with the excellent resale value of the boats, the T does not deserve the reputation of being an expensive class to own. The initial outlay may be a bit more but over time should work out equal or even better than many other classes. Compare a 10 year old Marstrom T to a X class of the same vintage or the amount of X class boats you turn over to stay copetitive and see which class is more expensive.

For example of prices, in Austalia I can purchase an F-18 for around $27,000 to $29,000. A Tornado I can land here for around $45,000. The F-18 however is not a Tornado and we don't realy have any other 20 beach cats here in Oz to compare to.

Hallo Stephen,

As you must have noticed I did not disagree with the truth full parts of you post, like were you claim that the Marstrom Tornado has a competitive life of abou 6 to 7 years. We are often in agreement.

The parts were our post differ is in what that means.

So there is not point in fighting over points that we actually agree on.

>>Before calling BS, you should find out who made the claims, where it was and how it was measured.

Well,

Over the years the typical reply to information and proof has always been :

"However we never had a GPS on board and nobody was timing us or any others. ... However despite not measuring our speed or others...... It was F*%$ing quick and would not doupt it was close to 30 knots peak."

So it felt fast but was it also fast.

I will give you a great example of why actually measuring this stuff means something.

I do class 5 landyachting, as you know, driving that baby over the beach feels like flying at 150 miles an hour, it really does. However it only goes 55 miles an hour (48 knots). It sure FEELS like more but it really isn't.

No I can got around and tell everybody that 150 miles an hour is much closer to the truth and than blast somebody who has done a little more speed measuring as being a fool for not having the data that proofs my FEELINGS as being correct. And we all know of course that absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence, Right ? I'm also a true millionair, have the most beautiful women of the world next to me and beat Schumacher on the track. But then again, I never check my bank balance, compare my wife to other women in the world or pay attention to where Schumy finished relative to me. Surely this means that I spoke the truth and nothing but the truth right ?

So , with all due respect the pointy end of the matter is that we simply do not have any dependable data that proof the claims of 33 knots and over on any course, some data we do have suggests significantly less data on other boats as good as proofs it is less, and now we must believe that that is all crap because you felt like going much faster. What ever happened to the time-honoured tradition of proof.

I'm trully at a loss here. I mean will you go up to a Tornado class measurer and start an argument when he wants to weight you boat before an official race because he doesn't trust your feel of the boat last time you had lifted it ? I mean what is this guy on about, last time you lifted the boat it sure FELT like alot more heavy than class minimum weight !

All I'm saying is that official claims and statements without clear proof should not be made. I both deceives the unaware novice and degrades the class about which the statements are made. It is also bad for our reputation in general, as cat sailors. So why do it ? Isn't 23.48 knots good enough ? Must we take some artistic license to make our top speeds look better ? Does such a thing change the thrill of sailing fast ? And please note I give every class a hard time on these aspects, monos, landyachts and other catamarans classes.

There is one thing that strikes me though. F18 class never makes statements like these and I say they should be recommended for that especially when noting that they can many big statements and still be truthful.

I will tell you a very sobering story from myself and other like Jake Kohl and I think Dave Lennard (if I have this name right). We sail respectively Taipan F16, Nacra F18 and a US I-20 (last = the kind that beats Tornado's on elapsed time). We all brought GPS units along on various occasions an NO ONE of us every recorded dependable top speeds above 25 knots and average speeds (over 500 mtr minimum) above 20 knots. Most often they are in the range of 22 and 18. The similarity between these different designs is striking. And yes we all have data on a particular good day when we felt that we were doing 30 knots at least each time it turned out to be, well, around 20 knots. You should do some measuring like this yourself.

Because only then you have any ground to come back and write :

"Before calling BS, you should find out who made the claims, where it was and how it was measured."

Again, with all due respect to both you and the the truth,

Wouter

All this talk about speed records reminded me of a site that keeps official records...

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/500.html

World speed records 500 mtr course

Current outright record holder: 46.82kts

Finian Maynard, BVI Windsurfer 46.82kts Nov 2004, Saintes Maries

Howdy Wouter,

The point I am trying to make is that the statement "Like every promoter the T class lied about 33 knot" is a very big statement to make. No where in the Tornado class statement did it mention sustained over X distance.

In the right conditions it is not unreasonable to believe that a T or other HP cats could not average 25 + on its best ever run with short bursts of up to 30 +.

Both you and I don't know who made this claim or how it was calculated / measured.... So until the claim is investigated, I believe it to be wrong to call BS. You can however take it with a grain of salt.

This is probably not a verified speed run but more somebody’s calculation used for promotional purposes. Because the WSSRC was not their to verify it, does not mean it did not happen.

Just for the record, I am sceptical of any claims of 30 knots sustained, be it a T or Skiff but would not argue that a short burst in the right conditions 33 + is impossible.

Sometimes anecdotes become legends and then become "history" and are treated as facts. Maybe the following anecdote about the late George Alleman, had something to do with the 33-knot claim.

And so a legend is born? Actually, if there was that much wind, I can't imagine a powerboat being able to go that fast.

Hello Stephen,

Of course we are mostly engaged in some friendly fencing.

And yes indeed I made a rather big counter statement.

Of course the underlying thought is that a claim is made were no is proof is provided for. With respect to wether it is reasonably or not, well the real data we do posses among us all (of other boats and T's) suggests that it may well not be reasonable at all. But I accept that that is a matter of (personal) intepretation.

I for one say that when than when the Bacardi run only showed 23.48 knots in 1997 and a Canadian radar gave 28 knots that a speed increase of no less than 18-38 % on top of these extremes is a bit of a stretch of the imagination. But like I said THAT is only my personal intepretation, or rather extrapolation, of the data that we do have.

You say that nowhere in the T class statement does it specify that sustained speeds are discussed. Well that is true, But doesn't the wording and feel of the article suggest just a little bit that they ARE talking about sustained speeds.

When I say that I can run at a 50 miles an hour don't you immediately and instinctively intepretate this as me of doing that on a typicall track or road instead of inside a Railway carrage doing 45 miles an hour to which I add my 5 miles and hour ?

That is the issue I'm high lighting here. I mean take a look at the actuall quote

It doesn't really say anywhere that the Tornado is actually SAILING as well.

Hell, it can catch the eye of on-lookers while it is still on the trailer. Speeding across harbour and lakes while crossing a bridge and crossing oceans inside a container on a 500 ft supercarrier cruising at 25-30 knots ?

I mean if we go your way than all these things qualify as well.

Besides that ain't nothing, My Prindle 16 once crossed the 30 km stretch of the ijssel lake in 40 knot winds with foam and water splashing high up on either side while travelling at 120 km/h. Of course it was during a storm and the boat was on the trailer while I drove over the connecting dyke that is only 20 mtr wide.

Alright although I still think it to be funny that you look at it from that perspective.

Besides F16's reach at 40 knots, so T's are really too slow to waste this many words on.

(or would you call that BS ? I mean you haven't investigated this claim yet or know how this number was obtained)

I respect your personal view point

Have fun sailing Stephen and think of me a little during your summer !

It is cold and dark overhere. Season must start again soon

Wouter

Based upon several of the responses to my original question, I am rephrasing the question:

Let's say you already have your boat of choice (or necessity). If, miraculously, a lot of other people also acquire that same class of boat, would you prefer to race your boat one-design with your own kind, or would you still prefer to race on handicap against a mixed fleet?

Hi Mary,

Personaly I'd prefer to race class racing.

For me, racing the Tornado at club level in a mixed fleet is a bit disapointing as you are out in front with no body pushing you (except for the other couple of Ts). Racing against slower boats you learn how to pass them quickley and are rarely challenged (You also learn how to dodge the downwind ) In class fleet racing it is allot harder to pass a competitor and you also have to defend you own possition.

The couple of Tornado regattas we do per season, I learn 10 times as much than all the club races and sail training over the season.

If you have the oportunity for example to race in a large class fleet (OD, Formula or Development class)say every weekend..... Why would you want to give that up and race mixed.

Hi Wouter,

Looks like we pretty much agree but are just looking at it from different angles..... Looks like we realy took the thread off track once again

Down under it may as well be cold and dark also... Sold the T about 6 weeks ago and just before the Nationals and Sail Melbourne. The guys are racing without us . Gotta take the right money when it comes up.

This weekend my crew and I will talk more about our next boat which will be either a Marstrom or F-18 (Capricorn or Tiger). Would like to get both a T and F-18. Will have to have a chat with the sponnsors

AAhh, well F18, hard choice there.

Go for the best build Boat or the one that has the best racing locally ?

F18 sure got the last part down. How many at last AUS nationals ? 33 Boats and crews ?

And Tornado hot shots making regular cameo's in the F18 class.

Good luck with your choice.

Woutre

Hi Steven

In reading your post it seems to me that what you are looking for is " being pushed" its the challenge of passing a well sailed boat so that you can get better.
Your assumption is that this naturally occurs in a one design (Tornado) fleet.

I disagree and offer two points.

Obviously, sailing the scratch boat in an open fleet means that you better be out front... (not so much fun) What if you sailed an F18 against a mediocre fleet of T sailors..... I bet the challenge is now there.... Your ability to sail the F18 to its number and compete against the T's boat for boat who are not sailing as well will put a lot of the challenge back into the game.

My point is that What people want is competition and goals which are achievable. This is what keeps them coming back for more.

Another example...is it competitive to have a fleet of one or two Olympic level sailors and the rest ... weekend warriors. Of course not. Simply saying ...well it's one design and so its great... would be meaningless.... You would still be way out in front and not being pushed. You essentially match race Bundock and Forbes. You could do that at your convenience... why go to a regatta and then have to wait for the slow boats in the fleet to finish.

What you want to see are finishing positions in constant flux at all levels of the fleet. ... If the results in a one design fleet are easily predicted... its not a competitive fleet and people will find something else to do. (No matter how identical or tunable the boats are.)

Back in the day of 150 boat Hobie 16 regattas...you got exactly this.... three fleets (A, B and C) of sailors racing against their peers (experience and skill) and the game was competitive and fun.

To answer Mary's question.... Would I prefer to sail in a one design fleet. NO...... Would I prefer to sail in a competitive one design fleet ... Certainly! Would I leave a few of my friends who race I20's to race Waves in an open class... NO... Let them race against the T's unless its the nationals.

The question facing all weekend regattas is how do you optimize competition... (NOT the BOATS). Strategies are one design, Formulae, rating bands in handicap... eg spins, Handicap, or Personal handicaps. You also need to make sure that some sailors aren't left behind by your splits... Better to throw a P19MX into a 10 boat Hobie 20 fleet then have the P19MX in an open fleet with very few similar boats and just score the event twice Open and Hobie 20). If you don't keep every one in the game they won't bother to play for long!

Good luck finding a Marstrom ... the Capricorn looks like a nice design as well. You don't see many of the Olympic guys really cross training on other boats... (odd nationals... certainly but not really campaigning a non Tornado) How do you see it?

Take Care
Mark
Off to sail my T in the league of ordinary sailors fleet at the OCR at the end of the month

Hi Mark,

You brought up some very good points. I believe mixing classes that have a simular rating is as good as racing OD. Also increase the size of the fleet on the course giving sailors big fleet experience at a local level. This will surely improve their performace when the treck of to the major regattas.

But as I think all would agree, there is no subsitute to large COMPETITIVE OD fleet racing if you can find it regularly.

Regarding cross training in other boats.... In OZ there is a bigger fleet of F-18s than T's and more competition. Not saying there is no T competition here. The top 5 or 6 boats are very competitive with Bundy and new crew Aaron Worrell sill very hard to beat.

For the best training it would be smart to race F-18s and pull the T out for the Tornado and the Olympic Class events. If you can afford both, do this and after the local T events ship your T to Europe.

MARY, Why not sail both!! If there are enough boats "of one design" nominated at a regatta, then those boats only have to have their positions "across the line" recorded to have had their OD class results, and if they have an appropriate "yardstick/rating" then they are positioned relative to ALL other boats sailing the same course and the same start. Or if a "back calculated" handicap system is incorporated, then similarly their individual relative positions in relation to the rest of the fleet is also known. Not only do they know how they perform against the sailors within their own "class", but they can also see how they are stacking up against the best sailors in other classes as well, which always helps to truly assess just how well they are REALLY sailing. The argument that to have "other classes" on the course at the same time "hinders" the "one design" classes sailing is a bit of a "furfee" as ALL obstacles on the water average out the same for all competitors over the duration of a race, and beside which any obstacle on the course should be treated as a test of the individuals sailing skills as to how he/she handles it.

Darryl, you must be a politician.

Different classes starting together is not really relevant to the question, because this is done routinely at most regattas. And, also, with the new starting procedures, you often do not know what class(es) will be starting together (or whether your class will be started alone) for any given race until the class flags go up on the committee boat.

With this in mind, if all things are equal, if all the sailors are equal sailing ability, and if you have a choice of racing one-design in a fleet of 10 boats or racing in an open-class fleet of 10 boats, which would most people choose?

If you are looking to be a popular organization, you will want to be inclusive to all boats and sailors. If Hobie points start to mean something again, then they should have their own opportunities to race unhindered by other boats. I don't see the big deal in having an open class start separate in any race, HCA or otherwise.

I question the validity of the traditional bouy course when a site has a vast expanse of water. I also question the newer starting procedures handed down a few years ago from HCA. Both seem silly to me.

The new starting procedures are not from the Hobie Class Association -- they are from the International Sailing Federation and US Sailing.

Honestly I would race in an open fleet of 10 spi equipped sloop rigged boats than in a fleet of 10 optimists or 10 Dart 18's. The last two type of boats don't give me enough enjoyment to put in the effort of dragging the baot over and rigging it. Besides I'm to heavy and too big for both anyway so all I do is come in at the back anyway. I don't particulary enough chastizing myself in that way. Than I rather be blasting along under spi.

Wouter

And I must say the new sequences are not a major improvement. For example, this weekend at the NAMSA NAs/Tradewinds we will probably have about 6 starts.., and that is after combining like classes.
With the new starting format, it would take 35 minutes to get the races off.
By using the old method (which we are going to do, as usual) with 3 minute sequences, we will get the entire group off in 18 minutes.., almost half the time.

There are some merits to the new system, i.e., if your class is all finished and now are awaiting others to finish, the RC can get you off and running.
But, that is only if the wind has not switched, there are no boats about to finish during the sequence, etc., etc.

Both have their merits.
Rick

Let me try yet again with this question. I keep trying to find ways to eliminate the ifs, ands and buts, and get to the basic preference, all things being equal.

Let's say you have a spinnaker-rigged boat, and there is a fleet of 10 of the very same boats. There is also a fleet of 10 open-class boats, also spinnaker-rigged but not identical boats. ALL of the sailors in both of these fleets are of equal sailing ability. You have a choice of racing in the one-design fleet or the open fleet, and the two fleets will be starting separately.

Which fleet will most people choose -- one-design or open-class?

I don't know how to get any more specific.

Mary,
I think you may have finally pinned them down. I enjoyed reading all the non-responses to your revised question. I certainly understood it as did most people. My guess is that most didn't want to state the obvious; its more fun to race boat for boat than against a time factor (handicap). I'm for one design as you presented it.

CRAC does what was mentioned in an earlier post; we sail handicap, but if you can get 5 boats to show up, you can be scored BOTH as one design and handicap. That sometimes brings up a question in the middle of a race; do I sail defensively to beat the other guy on the one-design, or keep going for the overall? Not a problem, just an added (an interesting) choice to make on the water.

David
H20

As you put it, I prefer one-design. No measurements, no handicap, just get out and race. Our club has 6 Stiletto 27's we just race head up first over wins. We'll discuss sails beforehand to see what we'll run and go with that. Keeps it simple.

Clayton
S27

what it all boils down to if we keep this this post and response up is the eventual core question

"Would you rather live in a perfect world than the real world ?"

Now I'm sure everybody will say yes to that relative undetailed question. (is your perfect world the same as mine ?)However I don't think anyone in the history of mankind has ever had this particular choice. So what is the point in answering such a question ?

With respect to your question :

I think I will choose the open fleet if that is were all my friends are sailing and is counted in my championship. At my club we have a club chmapionship and open class races away from the club count when more than 5 club members race there. So lets take Round Texel 2005 I will sail against the 10 or clubmembers there rather than 10 boats sailed by people I don not know or am not involved with in some form of championship. And yes this in not a mind example but a real situation I'm personally in for 2005.

You see Mary, The question is never that simple.

Maybe you should try this approach.

"Do you prefer to sail in any OD fleet over sailing in the open class when participating in the latter involves being slowly tortured to death by angry OD racers without any chance of escape ?"

Maybe you then get the 100 % score you are looking for.

Cos right now you are forcing people to at last once choose OD racing over open class racing. Why seek this ? What does it mean once you have exlcuded enough if's and but's so that there is no alternative answer possible then "I prefer OD in this case ?

Wouter

Wouter,

My mom always said if you don't have anything nice to say... well, just don't say it.

Clayton

Gosh, Wouter, I designed that question specifically for you.

Your not "having a go at Wouter" are you MARY???
You must always remember that he has a fairly large "barrow to push" with his total involvement with the F16's and as such his overall general view of sailing may (I only said MAY Wouter, so please don't "Flame" me for my personal opinion) be some what "colored", and Mary in regards to your question(s) that form the crux of this thread, I have found it difficult to actually comprehend the significance of the question. I can only put this down to the apparent large differences that exist between the way that "club" racing is conducted in Australia and the USA. From the last few posts here it would seem that there a some major differences, not only in the organization between Australia and the US, but also there appears to be a big difference in who actually has the authority to determine how the "running of events” is conducted. I could be wrong in that assumption, but that is how I see it at this juncture.
Darryl J Barrett

You are absolutely right and no I don't mind at all that you say that actually. I have also a large investment in open class racing with my NMBR project (That I must add is now OUR project as I'm getting significant help from others)

But there is nothing secret or fony about it.

Because Why did I choose F16 our F18 ? Arguably F18 is the only class left in the Netherlands that has any claim at the throne ? F20 come second and than way in the back on a shared 3rd spot A-cat, H16, Dart 18 and Tornado.

So I could have chosen a large competitive OD alike fleet with good reason but I didn't. So something in my enjoyment of sailing and my situation steers me away from these classes.

Now you can remove all if's and buts from any question but the core why I decided against all these classes will remain and I will decide open class with my F16 over all else.

For me , and I say for ME !, it is the flexibility of the design (solo and doublehanded) with spinnaker, a truly modern rig (wingmast) and being allowed to tinker with the boat. These 4 things exclude ALL available OD classes and also the F18 and F20. The fact that F16 rubs shoulders with F18 in open class (were 80 % of our Dutch racing is done) was a big part of the decision as well.

This is no secret and I will not hide it. So I may actually be one of the sailors that has placed personal enjoyment over the thrills of strict OD racing. Because I know that I never will be truly competitive anyway. Too old, started to late in life and live in an area where racing level is Darn high. So who am I kidding with getting involved in OD sailing ? A few youngsters of 23 who have sailed cats since they were 12 will beat me always.

On top of that I don't have a regular crew anymore. People in my age group start families and move on to other priorities. Without a dedicated crew there isn't much fun in strict OD racing. Might as well enjoy tinkering and sailing a modern design, a design on the edge and enjoy that. That and hang out with friend that over time have bought other designs and race recreationally just like me. Beat one of them in an open class as he beat me last time, just to return the favour and claim back bragging rights on the beach. This year the whole club will be attacking our club champion as they have been champions for 3 years in a row now. This is now a sacret mission of all of us. Now I have hte boat for it but no I need to find and train up a bloody crew or do it singlehandedly (A bit much with a spi again a team that got that F20 with spi down from start to finish)

Wouter

Well mary, shall I cross over first then ? (I'm out of time you see)

In basis you have got a point and you always had. I enjoy OD racing as much as other types of racing, but don't ask me to prefer one of the other as I really don't know what to choose. It is like getting up in the morning and deciding what to wear. Today it is white tomorrow it is black. There never is one right shirt for all days and it is the same with cat racing. I enjoy OD for what it is and I enjoy Open class racing for what IT is. Both have advantages and drawback and it often comes down to the day or the particular personal situation which form suits a person best. And often that person will switch over a few time during his or her life. I may haow did you go on sailing waves ? When you started there wasn't a fleet of 10 boats yet ! And yet for some reason you decided that the wave was attractive to you, to be prefered by you over say H16 or A-cat. Some try to think away that element that makes us all individuals in favour of forcing us in the perfect world of another human being.

So end with the statement (not a question anymore)

"If my perfect world then same as yours ?"

"Or can/should I demand everybody sails F16's because THAT would suit me best ?"

"Or should we just have multiple perfect worlds life side by side ?"

Wouter