How to instigate developmnt in a non-formula class

I'll bite...

good topic since i've been debating having our local sailmaker make a new jib for my N20. One thing that would need to start it is to decide how much deviation you want to make from the original sail plan. This may be hard to come up with since the class rules don't give any measurements for the sails, only simply stating that they must be made to the patterns held by PC and made by a licensed sail maker. So what do you want?? same area, and no other restrictions other than mast height (like the formula classes) or make it more restrictive with girth requirements at various locations (like the tornados)? I kinda like the idea of doing it like the formula classes, but with either, how do we control measurement? Again, I think it is a great idea, but I think we would need to come up with a rule before people start making whatever they want (how many different sail plans have you seen on a N6.0?? - don't want that, if we want to race one design)

I think the bottom line is that in this case, we need to take control of the class and form an owner run class. anyone else???

I think that was the underlying idea behind the F20 class.

As for what I'd like... personally I'd like the A-class ruleset for the sails, where every sail could be different but still adhere to a specific box rule.

PS please don't think my post is a troll on the Nacra class association.

Do you really think there is any other way?

Several Texan Nacra-20 sailors have also lamented the lack of sail development on this boat - on both jib, main and spin.

The most straightforward solution would be to propose the change to the Nacra Class Association, but it would contradict the first rule in their book:

Deja vu

Sounds like the nacra 6.0 NA class history story. You might talk with Eric A who was involved in trying to effect a change in the class rules to see how it went down. The New England Spin package Nacra 20 NA was born of this kind of focus and was listed in the Portsmouth tables once upon a time.

Good Luck

Not an answer...just a bit more lament for the stew....

I've had this conversation repeatedly over the last few years, and everyone seems to agree that kickstarting the F-20 class is really the only reasonable answer. However....I don't believe that will happen any time soon as there really is no competition for the N20 (one-design) in the US. I would likewise LOVE to see the same level of manufacturer competition (hence development) as we are currently seeing in F18. Unfortunately attempts at getting F20 going in the US continue to flounder, and it is my understanding that it is now stalling a bit worldwide, with F18 stealing all the thunder. The sad thing about all this is that it kind of leaves all us 200 pounders out in the cold!!

Mabe if I cut off a leg I could be more competitive in F18??? <img src=

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JL

I know there are lot of Wave bashers out there (that have never tried one, however), but we formed our own class association, developed our own sail rules and allow any sailmaker to participate. It has made this boat the most one-design in the country and the most competitive.

At any regatta and/or in any race, any sail and any sailor can and does win.

For folks that sail in heavy air, flat seas and are skinny, you want your sailmaker to build a flat sail for you.

If you sail in light air, choppy seas and are a bit more blossomed, you need a fuller sail.

That is what the Wave Class has done. There are several very good sailmakers now involved in the class and some very brilliant sails being made.

And by the way, for you devout Hobie suppposed-one-design folks, the North Coast Championship was won by a stock Hobie Sail. You see, there is room for everyone.

Rick

See, thats what I'm talking about Rick. Its not that I want to pull

control

away from Nacra, its just that I would like to see sail development actually happen!

Are you thinking about sail shape, materials, or both?

I don't see any reason that the manufacturer couldn't

update

the sail plan themselves. They did with the auto-tacking jib, for instance. I think the same was done with the spinnaker, too. Nothing dramatic, but a little flatter shape with different shoulder. The new 3-point snuffer spins are even flatter I think.

It would take about 3 years for all the

original style

sails to exit the racing scene. I guess it wouldn't matter for the non-racing owners.

I can see the manufacturer's point that there is no

perfect

sailplan for a boat that accommodates crew weights of 325-400+ lb and various wind/sea conditions. It would seem easier (and cheaper) to develop a standard sailplan that is highly tuneable (through downhaul, prebend, outhaul, sheet tension, etc.)

Dude,
I hate to say this, but it is unlikely this is going to happen. PC is not going to allow a class that they control to chose their own destiny. It is not in their financial interest. They have no incentive to update the sailplan until they have competition. That is all part of a single manufacturer controlled one design class.
On the other hand you could form your own class association. Call it the Nacra 20 class owners association. Hold you own Nationals, make your own rules. The problem with setting up a class like this is most sailors in the existing US class won’t buy in to it. A large fraction of the racers feel that this just leads to an arms race in equipment. This is not really correct. When I looked at it several years ago it was always cheaper to get sails in classes that had competitive sail makers and the sail makers pushed the development to sell product.

If you can realy form an effective owners association I think you could improve the class tremendously. It is however a SH*Tload of work and you would earn lifelong bad will from the factory. Is it Worth it?

My own personal opinion is that you are only going to get consistent development and high quality when there are multiple options available. Take a look at a new A cat sail sometime. The quality is so high it is unbelievable. It has to be. If the Glaser sail wasn’t perfect and did not go fast, I would buy it from someone else next time. I have 8 or so good options for sail makers. All of the sails I got from PC were inconsistant several had major flaws.

Just as a (not so)funny story, I bought a new 6.0 and it was going to be displayed at the providence boat show. It got rigged for the first time at the show. We put the sail up and the luff was so long it came all the way to the bottom of the mast base with no downhaul on. We had to measure the mast because the first thought was that they built up a Nacra 5.8 mast section (shorter) instead. Turns out my new ONE-design sail was 7” longer on the luff then the previous one from a year before. I ended up having a local sail maker cut 5” off the sail so I could downhaul it. This of course was totally illegal in the class rules

Good Luck,
Eric

I am going to play devil's advocate just for the sake of argument. The Nacra 20 is a one design class. Would opening up the class to restricted development create an arms race to have the latest and greatest sails available, and as a result making previous sail designs obsolete (for the avid racer). By maintaining strict class rules regarding sail design, the one design concept stays true,and the boats remain equal providing a level playing field for sailors and the results show the sailor that is the best at prepping, tuning, and sailing their boat for the conditions they are faced with.

It probably would open up a

mini

arms race, although a lot of it would be due to marketing, IMHO.

There is not a sail (or material) out there that will make me win more races if I do not spend time on the boat practicing good sailing techniques and strategy. I think too many people buy into the hype that technology will make them better (rather than time on the boat)

I believe that quality control would improve, and sailors would have even more ways to adjust their sailplan (in addition to the normal sail control lines).

If it's only sails we're talking about, I don't think it will get that crazy, as most racers buy new sails every other year anyway...

Your philosophy is clear and consistent.

However... what happens when you shift paradigms because the racing you describe is not that interesting. You have one boat and are also interested in setting point to point records or god for bid ... racing against other similar boats eg tornaods or F18's. Or simply want to get the best possilbe performance out of your platform by changing the soft stuff within a box rule set and what you get from X sucks and since its your money... you want something good... not just something approved. Now your hands are tied

So... since racing is a social contract... (we agree to race under these rules with a set of rules that specifiy equipment...) you have to do as Eric suggested... Do a lot of work to develop a community of like minded I20 sailors who organize themselves into a class write some rules and do some events under the new rules.

In the end.. its about belonging to the group and feeling the love....

the intermediate step is make your changes and play with the open class.

Eric suggests that if you take this on... you won't be feelin any love from Performance...

I think it is strange that our manufacturers also mandate one-design sails...besides some obscure monohull classes, I can't really think of any monohull class that has such a requirement. That being said, however, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Nacra 20 class. I wouldn't turn away from the class if they opened up the sailplan to different manufacturers but I really don't have a big problem with the way things are. Most competitive one-design classes are feeling the tug from the F18 class and I don't think you'll be able to compete with F18 (assuming that's what you're after) unless you truly have a full on box-rule F20 class....but that has yet to get off the ground. F18 has probably reached such a mass that launching the F20 class now would be even more difficult. Someone mentioned the 6.0 class...them changing to add a spinnaker did one of two things; it prolonged the class or it dilluted it to the point that it could no longer survive. You really risk splintering the existing Nacra 20 class with such a move.

As far as it starting an arms war...well, somewhat maybe. All I know is that I can buy a set of sails, and have them shipped from europe, a lot cheaper than I can get a set of factory sails for either of the boats in my back yard. If you really want to stay competitive in any fleet, you are replacing your sails at LEAST every two years. It boils down to if you want to buy sails on an open market or a closed market.

No, I just don't want you F18's passing us up the coast because you've had years and years of sail development poured into your boats!
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The nacra 20 sailplan could probably gain a little from some development - but the reason F18's pass an I20 when the wind is up (and it's on the nose) isn't because the sails. It's because the N20 has soo much horsepower and gets overpowered so soon. When I'm sailing a N20 upwind with the wind at about 12 to 14 the downhaul is maxed out and the top of the sail is doing very little to propel the boat but is still adding drag. We don't max out downhaul on the F18 until 18-20 knots of breeze so the F18 in 15 and above has a signifiantly more efficient sail area. It's less about efficient sail plans than it is about a reduction in horsepwer....if you could effectively reef an N20 main you would probably have something (but your sailshape goes to poop).

Wasn't the original European I20 sailplan smaller than the US version?

I think that was the basis for the F-20 sailplan, but some comments were that it was underpowered for US windspeeds (average 8 mph). I could be wrong....

So, apparantly there are two sailplans in existence anyway. The big (USA) sailplan, and the small (EU) sailplan...

We are different....yet not so different...

Would the EU sailplan be legal to use in the US?

I thought I read somewhere that Nacra started shipping our main to Europe?

Only the shape.

Now the I-20 One-design sailors are overpowered here as well.

Now I haven't been too much on top of this but my impression is that the EU I-20 sailors with the US mainsail design aren't that much faster. The F18's are still giving it to them.

Wouter

In Europe, all the good sailors are on F18s.

Really??? nobody good sails an I20 on the whole continent of Europe... I did not know that.

I did not know that you raced in Europe to have first hand knowledge. ... Heck... I did not know that you read enough foreign languages to study regatta results to even form an opinion... Wow... If I did not know better... I would have thought you pulled this opinion out of your butt!

So no good Tornado, 18HT, A-Cat or Spitfire sailors in Europe - they are all on F18s?

Fine, you guys want to play semantics, thats ok with me.

A quick survey of the Texel results show an over-abundance of F18's in the top 20 compared to any other class. Not a single N20 to be seen in the top 20. One Tornado.

If there are N20's sailors competing in Europe at the top level, they aren't making as much noise as the F18's.

Really, you all can stop acting like you're the smartest people in the room.

Wouldnt a flatter shape make the i20 faster upwind? The reply's all seem to indicate the i20 main is too full and overpowered. Somebody willing to spend $1500 to try?

Is the mast bendy enough to allow the sail to flatten all the way?

The i20 feels sticky upwind to me and this is with a brand new main. Downwind it feels much better.

Bill

Well thats how you depower it when its honking - flatten it out. Rarely do I get the feeling that we're overpowered downwind, its usually upwind and jib reaching that you're fighting to keep her pointy end up.

You're out of line here - one of the top US N20 teams (Alex and Nigel) were at Texel this year on a 20 and its an easy guess that there are some very talented N20 sailors in Europe. I really don't see what this has to do with anything anyway.

You want to make a N20 faster? Why? The way I see it, it's probably the fastest thing (outside a Tornado) off the beach in anything under 15. If you try to affect the speed of the boat in the higher wind speeds...when the F18's start to show an upper hand...you stand a good chance of loosing that ability to sail fast when it's light.

As far as the mast being bendy enough to flatten the main, I think it's MUCH bendier than the current F18 masts and flattens it like a board. I do agree, however, that it's a very full main - but this is probably part of the reason the boat is so favorable to distance racing with the spinnaker.

In my moderatly experienced opinion, if you want to go slow with the F18s in the light stuff and go faster in the heavy, I think the mast needs to get a little shorter in addition to flattening the main but I wouldn't agree with such a change.

Yes, the sail shape could be played with, it's not perfect by far, but the platform friggin hauls butt in all conditions. The beauty is learning how to make the OD go faster than the next guy. The boat is a handful in the breeze, but that's what makes it fun! If you want less power go F18. Believe me, I'm not knocking the F18. I think the Infusion rocks. The N20 just has the Holy *noodle* factor that is just plain fun. Even though it's so powered up you can push it, and the boat just begs for more.

I found a good upwind shot during the W1000 in '01 I think.