Hull Oxidation

UV combined with oxygen breaks down the gel coat at the molecular level and once the original outer layer is gone, the gelcoat is very porous ... breaking down much easier.

"Vertglas" - buy it at West Marine (the only place I've found it online). You clean the hull, rub it down with something to remove any wax, make one quick pass with a rubbing compound (without wax) and polisher to remove the loose stuff, and then put on 6 quick coats of Vertglas with a foam/"shammy" brush. It goes on like water and dries to the touch very quickly. You could do an entire catamaran easily in an afternoon.

This stuff is a "co-polymer" (I know that's terribly generic but it's all I know) coating. It's not as hard as paint but it's much harder and durable than wax. It does wear away over time and they recommend washing the boat and applying another two coats once per year.

I refinished my 20 year old 24' monohull with this stuff last year and had several people ask me how I could afford a new boat. A year later, the sides still look terrific and the additional two coats made it shine more than I remember from last year. The topsides, however, where they get direct sun, seem to need more than the recommended two coats to get back to where they should be.

Thanks Jake,
I see why they put you on the cover. So I resign myself to a couple of coats of this co-polymer per year and people will ask me if I have a new boat!?!?!? That sounds perfect.
This also sounds like a very good reason to "invest" in one of the total boat covers (for $ 200 in Murrays) once this is completed so as to avoid some of the UV damage? Am I reading this right?

Hi Greg,

Jake is right. An invisible spectrum of ultraviolet light photo degrades just about everything on your boat; including the alum. mast, vinyl coating on the shrouds, for sure the tramp and stitching, all rubber fittings and shroud adjuster covers, etc. The gelcoat on your hulls is an especially UV sensitive plastic. I can't think of anything it doesn't degrade. It'll get your boat cover too. Oh yeah, it's what causes skin cancer and it's what we're supposed to avoid like the plague.

I haven't used Jake's product but I have used 303 Protectant for years on all my boats and outdoor gear. Lots of hardware stores carry it, as does West Marine. I know Wax is popular with sailors but it takes quite an effort to apply it, and as you know it wears off very fast, and is rapidly broken down by UV light waves, and worse yet it's hydrophilic. This means it attracts water so it'll add a small amount of weight to the boat and increase drag as you sail. 303 came out of the space program and is commercially available. It's the only thing that engineers know of that works long term, but nothing lasts forever. A note of caution, silicone, polymer sealants, and wax, all prevent the 303 from being absorbed into the gelcoat's pores and so will be ineffective. So all the stuff that doesn't work very well, will prevent the stuff that does work well, from working. It comes in a spray bottle. Spray it on the hulls and wipe the surplus off and that's it. I would put two thin coats on to begin with and do it again once or twice a season. The first couple sailings after application my hulls are super slipper. Now when I reapply it on the sides of the hull where my feet walk up and down when I'm out on the wire, I put it on with a rag that has very little 303 left in it. The first time I sailed after applying it the wind was blowing pretty good and a wave hit me not far from the beach. I went flying off the hull and around behind the stern and watched my shiney boat slowly flip.

I coat everything on my boat including the mast, block and tackle, etc. but exclude the tramp. Mine is new and slippery enough already and I use a storage cover. I also use it on my life jacket, trap harness, cat trax wheels, canoe paddles, storage bags, wet suits, dry suits, and anything neoprene just loves the stuff. Just about anything that's out in the sun a lot. It restores the original color to some extent.

I recently bought five older boats. One is a 1975, the others are 1980s and an early 1990 model. None had ever been covered, not even during winter, and all looked like they were surplus from World War II. Today with new rigging, lines, and sails, and gleaming hulls, all look like they're contemporary boats. If you have an older boat that has suffered a lot of oxidation to the hulls and not been regularly maintained, you'll probably want to use an oxidation remover first. This is because the oxidized gelcoat builds up on the surface as kind of an uneven mat and it won't produce as smooth and glossy a finish as it would, had it been removed first. West marine sells something called "Fiberglass Color Restorer for $10.00 per pint. A pint should do a whole boat. Although two of my boats required a quart apiece. What ever you choose to do, quite waxing. Good luck.

Daniel

I can say that most oxidation is caused by SMOG- Ozone is the primary component and it oxidizes paint, rubber and most things around- including lungs- that is why the American Lung Association says we need better standards to reduce asma and other problems associated with smog. I work in air quality

John R.

Quite an approptiate time to bring up this subject because up in New York, we're planning to haul the boats off the beach and tuck them away for the winter.

I've always just buffed them and waxed them, but they do look very oxidized so I'll try these products. Thanks for sharing.

W

I've gone the labor intensive route on a couple of older boats rencently:

1) Fill all the scratches with either bogged matching gel coat (visible areas) or Formula 27 (bottoms), sand smooth with 100 grit.
2) Wet sand with progressive grits - 320 (patches), 400 (everything), 600, 800, 1000.
3) 3M Heavy Duty Rubbing Compound and a machine buffer (get a real one, not the $25 toy they sell at WalMart. DeWalt 849.)
4) 3M Finesse-It II w/ machine buffer w/foam pad
5) 3M Marine Wax

I did a 17 year old Hobie 17 and a 20 year old Hobie 14 in a day or so each. They look like they were just popped out of the molds. Shiny

VERTGLAS
So if the product is so good why doesn't Rick and Mary put it in their store. I would much rather send my hard earned USD to Catamaran Sailor than west marine.... and I bet I'm not the only one

Kevin

one of these days one of you will try Vertglas and confirm what I'm telling you! It's not easy to source and would be a good product for catsailor.

OH BTW - do NOT try to use a rubbing compound on top of vertglas because it burns and turns black almost immediately. It removes easily with acetone however. I'll take a picture of my Hunter tomorrow and show the shine!

I bought a Vertiglas kit. From the MarineStore.com
I first looked through the Catsailer On-line Store but didn't see it. Googled it and the Marinestore popped right up and it was cheaper.

Promise I'll take before and after pictures and post them.

I was planning on painting my hulls this winter since it looks like no has ever waxed them. I was planning on sanding off the gel coat and applying a 2 part epoxy paint. It seems that to sand and buff and sand and buff, etc is an awful lot of work that you will have to do every year.

Am I correct in that the epoxy paint will hold the shine much longer and that it will also stand up to beach rash much better? Anyone have any expereince with this?

You don't have to do the "sand and buff" routine every year. After a few years, there'd be no gel coat left!

I did "sand and buff" my H-16 last year - a '98 - then took it to Strictly Sail Chicago and put it on display with a brand-new Tiger. People thought the 16 was newer than the Tiger. It still looks that way today, although it did pick up a few scratches over the summer (9 2-day regattas and 7,250 miles on the trailer )

Paint no matter what kind isn't going to stand up to the beach. I painted a Hobie 18 I used to have with Imron and before I did I taped off about a four inch wide strip tapered down at the front and left that gelcoat. The Gelcoat is much easier to repair and work with. If your going to sand anyway you might as well try sanding and polishing first.

Another way to do this would be to sand to about 280 and have the boat clearcoated with Imron or Awlgrip. This works really good on colored hulls. Nice thing is if get it scratched the old color dosen't show through.

Last summer we bought an older J22 for racing and worked on it over the winter. We decided to refinish the entire hull and refair it. But, we made a mistake in having the boat repainted instead of working with the Gelcoat that was there. The paint does chip and cannot be "brought back to life". I'm sorry we did it. I've seen catamarans painted and they look good from far, but the finish is less than acceptable. I've always done better with the rubbing and buffing.

I'm going to try that new procuct on the 2 Hobie Cats in my life. I certainly would never paint them.

Wyatt

Hey Bullswan,

You're heading in the right direction. I don't think Vertglas is a panacea, but you're light years ahead of the guys who believe in painting to restore faded hulls. Vertglas claims that it makes your gelcoat completely impervious to UV degredation. That's not accurate. It doesn't. But it should, if correctly applied, do an acceptable job of protecting your hulls for the bulk of the sailing season. Ant that's really all that matters.

Wyatt, I'm with you. Once you do something that doesn't work very well, why keep on doing it? Hobienick, Catman, and all you guys who believe paint is the answer, I don't want to dissuade you from painting if your heart is set in that direction. But all you're doing is covering up old oxidized damage and doing nothing to prevent it from happening to your new paint job. Some paints are better than others, that's true, and will resist breakdown by the sun better than others. But they all deteriorate after a relatively short period of time.

If your hulls are damaged by deep scratches or cracks then you've got a repair job to do on the gelcoat. Other than these specific areas I would never sand the gelcoat. It's there for a purpose.

Calcheck I hate to disagree with you, but if we could prevent UV damage; the amount of damage from ozone wouldn't be enough to prompt anybody to correct it. Guys think about it for a minute. Why is it that every car ever owned, always faded if parked outside for a period of time. In fact UV penetrates inside the car and the dash, seats, door panel, etc. all fad too. My living room carpet is faded in the area that the sun reaches. So what is it that causes this fading? It isn't ozone. It's UV light. It causes oxidation on a molecular level.

If you want to protect your hulls, tramp, lines, etc. then the boat must be covered when not in use. Period!!!! If you want your boat protected when you're out on the water, an area of intense UV light, then you have to cover everthing with a protectorant. It sounds like most of you have boats that are pretty degraded, so you would be well advised to pony up seventy bucks for the Vertglass restoration kit. If your boat isn't too badly oxidized, you should be able to get buy with Vertglas Sealer for twenty seven to fifty bucks. I'd rather spend ten bucks for a little bottle of 303 Protectant and wipe the hulls down every couple of months. I suppose it takes me the better part of ten minutes. The friction caused by the water moving over the hulls, will over time, remove the surface coating of both 303 Protectant and Vertglass. The thirty or forty minutes a year I spend doing maintenance, saves me from the hours and hours of hard grunt work guys have to do when their boat has bad hull damage.

Prindle 16, it takes a fair amount of sales to justify stocking a product. Looking at all the cats I run into it, seems to me there isn't much of a market to justify stocking this stuff. We still have lots of guys who believe waxing is doing something good for their boat. Overall looks to me like most guys don't do anything to take care of their boats.

In a way this thread is a bit of an irony for me because I'm more interested in taking care of the hulls from the water line down. I wouldn't ever set my hulls on anything but my little foam rests.

Daniel

You're getting a DNF if I have to pull out the dictionary again.

Damn, I was going to say there appears to be a plethora of ideas on how to solve the dilemma.. but I guess I won't.
Don't want a DNF. I also can't say I'm autodidactic either.
Thanks
Greg

Greg,

Anybody who knows what an autdidact is must be one

Daniel

Jake,

Daniel

Not even automotive painters use a buffer anymore the oil base compounds are toxic. The modern method is to wet sand with 1200 paper and 2000 grit(yes2000grit with lots of water) this gives you great control without removing too much gellcoat. After sanding wipe on a polimer sealor and cover your boat.

Mel,
I'm confused because I am in the automotive paint business and I can assure you buffers are still used.

Sure there are shops still useing lacquer so let just say that if you are trying to remove oxidation from gelcoat try sanding with 1200 and 2000 grit wet dry paper and see the shine return.This method is fool proof in that the supper fine papers dont scratch, they infact pollish.

Where do you find those grits? Best I can find is 1000 grit at an auto store... I've got rubbing compound which I believe is 1500 grit.

I like that teflon boat polish to protect once I've got the oxidation off..

Jake, I'd still like to see a picture of a vertiglassed hull. My used prindle 19 hulls are just starting to show their age a bit and if this stuff works like you say, I'll be ordering some. Well just as soon as I actually get a storage space and off the waiting list and I can bring the boat down from my in-law's house

Hey Josh,
As I said earlier I bought the kit from the Marine Store and they have pictures in their testimonial section that I've given the link for below. Vertglas testimonial pictures

Greg

thanks greg, thats deffinately a good looking product, I'm all over it!

Jay,
Any automotive paint or fiberglass supply will have 2000 grit. However I assure you you do not want to sand your 20' boat with 2000. I've used 600 and then polished gelcoat with a buffer and trust me the 600 sanding scratches polish out. Leaving 2000 grit scratches on the hull will only lead to quicker dulling and discoloring. There's no doubt that a 2000 finish will have a shine and be smooth but its still not a polished or sealed surface.

Mel,
Lacquer paint is not legal anymore. It's been outlawed because of its VOC's. The only people that can get it are people that can prove that it's being used for restoration purposes. Were talking classic cars.

All cars are painted with urethane based paints. Most cars are two stage paint. The base coat is the color and dries to a semi gloss finish. The clearcoat is sprayed over that for durability and shine. A friend of mine has a body shop. I can assure you that every car he paints gets wet sanded and buffed. He uses 1000 grit then a aggressive compound then a foam pad with glazing compound.

I do touch-up paint repair for high end car dealers. I use 2000 to remove very fine scratches that are in the clearcoat. Then those are polished with a foam pad. If you want to test your theory that 2000 polishes try it on your car and let me know what happens.

I really don't see the need to use 2000 for any other reason.

So, you still want to wet sand with these grits?, then I would do it this way, Go to Wally Mart and buy a jitter bug air sander. Find a capable air source and put your thousands grit paper on that. That way you can run water and let the machine do the work.

It does what they say and those pictures are real. In the kit, they supply you with a "white" 3m scotch brite pad (the color indicates the abrasive grade of the pad) for removing the loose oxidation in combination with a rubbing compound. This still requires a bit of elbow grease. I recommend using a buffer (a real one) with the supplied rubbing compound and just quickly go over the gel coat for much faster and easier preparation. Then wash the boat, dry it, and start putting on the coating. DO NOT go over the vertglas with the buffer (it quickly turns black) and don't get acetone on the vertglas unless you intend to remove it.

Daniel,
A few points,

This product sounds good but I would be interested to see how it holds up to repeated washings, sliding over the decks on and off the wire etc. Has anyone used it on their cat yet?

I believe I suggested he try sanding and polishing first.

I don't understand this at all. We use sand paper to prep the hull before painting. It removes the oxidized stuff and gives us some tooth for the paint or Gelcoat to adhere to. Yes some paints are better. I painted my old boat in 1989 with Imron. Four years later I polished it and it hardly made the boat look any better. It has the same paint job on today and the guy that owns it hasn't done anything to it at all. I walked over to recently with a little wax a rubbed a spot and it shined right up.

What do you consider a short time?

Wyatt, What did you paint your boat with? Imron does not chip off as long as the most basic prep work is done.

Most large yachts I've seen are painted not gelcoated. Some of the Tornado's of the top teams have paint jobs on them. My Hobie had areas where the gelcoat was 3/16 thick. Paint can be a few mils thick. Lighter.

Looking at the cost factor 1989-2005 at $70 per year. You can buy a nice paint job for that. By the way it cost me a couple hundred bucks to get the paint done. The 303 may work but where does all that stuff wear off to? The water? I have a 20' boat it's going to take more than a bottle and more than ten minutes.

Now understand, my current boat is all Gelcoat and I don't have any plans to paint it. However finding Gel that matches is not easy. I had to have some custom mixed so I can do repairs that come close. With paint it's easy to do spot repairs that match perfectly.

Another way of looking at this is some of us use our boats. Your quite a ways up there. Your sailing season is how long?
I sail from March into December. My boat goes in on Friday and comes out on Sunday and thats almost every weekend.I actually use my boat to have fun and sometimes race. It's not uncommon for me to sail 150 miles in a weekend. That means going places and pulling up on beaches. It's unavoidable and silly not to enjoy this area when all it costs is a few hours twice a year touching up the bottom.

Bottom line is you make these decisions after carefully looking at your indivdual needs and weighing all the options and no matter what you decide to do, do it right.

Enjoy.

Catman,

Before I respond to your thoughts, I want to go back to the beginning of the thread. Greg wanted to know what caused the oxidation damage to his hulls. It's caused by a particular spectrum of sun light, ultraviolet. Sounds like he tried to repair the damage and he was dissapointed his effort to do so didn't last.

We're all so busy in life that every time we are confronted with a new experience, who has time to investigate everything and why reinvent the wheel. Somedody tells us how they tackled the issue and we follow their advice; after all we were the one without any relevant experience. But there's practical problem with giving advice. You can't say, just do what I tell you, cause they're a lot of us who might resent a sailor standing in for god. So I figure, to each their own, and am inclined to keep my mouth shut. But if you could sneak inside my skull you might hear, jeez I wonder why that guy insists on paddling upstream.

Hull damaged, above the waterline, doesn't appreciably alter a boats sailing efficfiency. So it seems to me when hull oxidation bothers us it must have to do with damaging the boat's visual appeal. For my part I like shiny stuff. Also, personally I hate spending hours of hard rubbing; it's just more work than I want to do. I'd rather putter around less strenuously than end up feeling like my hands and shoulders are about to fall off.