Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true, Bill, sorry.
Let me see on which parts of your post I would like to give a individual answer.
>>I would never publish BS on this forum or any other forum.
Humm,
"all boats not using shared lift have massive lee helm under spi " ?
"ARC 17 should get a rating of about 65,8 (but was raced by yourself of 71 I believe)" ?
"Supercats are the only ones fitted with a righting bar " ?
"Texel speed record set outside the texel are no records and so the SC20 record is still standing" ? (Note how the sc20 record was set in august when the texel race was held in June that year)
To name but four of you more frequent errornous statements
>>That is not what these forums are for.
We agree on that.
>>Also in my little narrow window of sailing knowledge and experience, there must be millions of details about sailboats and rig designs that I do not know about. I do not claim to be "all knowledgeable" like some people.
Yet you are always very sure that everything good was first featured on a supercat or ARC boat. Squaretop mains, selftacking jibs, Spinnakers and now you are also sure that the introduction of the selftacker to beachcats can be fully traced back to a single ARC22 that was send to France in the early 90's. How can you possibly know that and how can you be sure ? Where did the selftacker on the initial Nacra 6.0 come from, that was designed somewhere around 1989 wasn't it ?
For a guy that now claims to have a narrow windows of knowlegde you have rather big claims in the past. And still dis so in your fore last post (French arc22 started it all claim ?)
>> Curved track ...second line ... but that wasn't good enough for me. I wanted it to be automatic, jib car position and sail shape controlled by one line.
News flash, In my earlier post I already expressed that my curved track selftacker doesn't have this second line either and works fine as well. So please tell us all again that curved tracks needs a second control line to work.
>>When the sheet was eased, the car moved out and the sail became fuller
And the sheeting angle to the jib is dropping below it optimal angle and thus slacks the leech causing twist in the upper part of the jib. This is the very reason why curved tracks are used on F18's and Tornado's. Gives better control over the leech.
>>And by the way Wouter, some Tornado sailors do let the jib car control line out for reaching.
Like I already said in my earlier post; only on distance races with very long reaching legs, hardly a frequent occurence. In other situations they just slack of the jib sheet and go for it or sail high above the proper line and hoist their spis early and before they get to the mark. All very standard practice now, they all do it. Seriously you'll need to look at these modern Tornado of the truly serious crews. They are more and more replacing the adjustable systems by simple set and forget setups. They trim the boat for upwind and have the spi do the downwind work and broad reaching. They don't any more on reaches then they do on downwinders. Slack of the downhaul, release some mainsheet tension, rotate the mast further and forget about the rest. All these small stuff takes to much time to correctly set up again after rounding C-mark for the next upwind leg.
>>That is why the jib tracks are more than 18 inches long.
F18's and Tornado's sheet their jibs out way more than 9 inches of the mast. 9 inches backwinds the mast and suffocates the slot. My selftacking jib with only a 1.2 mtr foot (= short = 3 feet) is sheeted about 12-14 inches off the mast already (upwind). And now you want us all to believe that 1.4 to 1.6 mtr footed F18 and Tornado jib are sheeted at 9 inches to the mast ?
Bill, you are wrong again.
>>The crew does have to come to the center of the tramp to uncleat and let out this control line.
They would have to do that if they want to adjust it, however in bouy races they never do and only long reaches in distances races it is worth doing to get that last bit of extra speed from the jib.
>>I want to point out that ARC products have both straight jib tracks and curved jib tracks for various reasons. I happen to like the straight track system better myself on the 27 and 30.
That is a personal opinion and that is fine.
Please just don't say that all other designs are wrong for not thinking the same thing. Ohh I should say for not 'recognizing' the same thing as you.
>>Another comment for Wouter: Wouter, I have been going to international boat shows since about 1970. I have looked over hundreds of sailboats of all sizes and shapes. Most of these boats were "cruiseing boats". I have never seen one of these boats rigged with a self tacking jib system. Cruiseing boats do not give a hoot about racing/rating rules.
Wrong ! Cruiseing boats customers follow trends seen in the racing classes. When these racing classes went for large overlapping jibs and genua's due to a loop hole in racing rules every cruise sailor wanted these rigs as well. Because the profi guys were sailing these and therefor they must be the best setup for speed, something even a casual cruiser pilot has a sweet spot for. Of course these overlapping foresail can not be fitted with a selftacker.
Besides your whole point is awkward. If selftackers are so much easier on cruisers and cruiser designers and customer don't give a damn about what racers do then why didn't boomed jibs, large battened mainsails with small jibs, and selftackers get into this market alot sooner. We all know what a pain in the neck these large genua's can be, and flapping mainsails not to mention tacking a mono with an overlapping jib. Over for that matter Gaff rigs and lug/Junk rigs ? Besides, boomed jibs and selftackers were rather common on (working) sail boat designs of the 19th century and early 20th century.
>>Within the next 5 years you will begin seeing cruiseing boats rigged with self tacking jib systems like beach cats have today.
Go back some 100 years and you'll see the same thing. Afterall what is a boomed jib ? All the Schooners had one.
>>The beach cat system, straight track, works very well and is very simple to work with one control line.
-1- The beach cat system (as most found on these) is the curved track setup; only ARC have the straight rail system and only a handfull of these exist in the world.
-2- I agree it can be made to work, especially on mono where the width to the foot of the sail is alot smaller than on a catamaran.
-3- On cruising monohulls I don't see a need to expensive hardware to have a selftacker. Just get a non-overlapping jib (maybe boomed) and two sheet points off to the side and in front of the mast. When taking uncleat the jib, let it swing over and tighten the sheet on the other side.
However I expect you are right with regard to the mono's just because the customers want to have these systems now that the racers are using them more and more.
Wouter
Play nice Wouter, I'll send you to your room without any supper.
Now you guys go on and try to get along.
I think self-tacking jibs are fairly common on cruising boats, aren't they? We had an Irwin 37 that was built in the early 1970's, and it had a club-footed, self-tacking jib. I believe it was called a stays'l. It was hanked onto the babystay. The forestay was used for the genoa.
The self-tacking jib makes life easier for short-handed cruising. Our boat was ketch-rigged, so if you were sailing with the main, self-tacking jib and mizzen, all three sails were self-tacking.
So when the Nacra 6.0 came out originally with a self-tacking jib, I thought of it as an old monohull system that was being adapted to catamarans. 
Bill: Thanks for the input.
We have a curved jib-track on our Tornado, but it is bent to the wrong shape (not enough curve). As a consequense, the jib-car tends to move towards the center when the gusts lets up. We need to be aware of this, and sheet out the jib, or else the jib chokes the main quite badly. Perhaps we will add a fourth batten to an old jib and se what happens (always fun to try something new, and learn something in the progress).
Regarding automatic trim response. Automatic depowering and a rig that responds to changes in windspeed is great if it is easy to manage. Just consider our flexible masts with pre-bend and square top sails (altough the new Tornado mast is rumored to be very stiff, not very responsive to downhaul and yet beeing very fast, exciting times).
I had the opportunity to look at Darren Bundocks T in 2003. His jib-track setup was simplistic and very 'set and forget' It was a standard curved track, with one adjustable stopper at each end. Hi simply set the stopper where he wanted it (30cm from center in low winds and 40cm in high winds I think, at least that was where he had marked the track) and the jib-car moved between the stoppers. No adjustment made when racing..
I dont want to get into the other part this thread has turned into. Just want to add that here in Norway, several cruiser models are fitted with selftackers, both from factory and afterwards.
Let's not go dragging up old dirt...(and making rediculously long posts)
Bill,
I genuinly want to understand more about the physics behind the straight track...You said that that in order to achieve proper sail shape on the straight track that the traveler car had to be centered on the beam (which will obviously not work) - parden me if I misquote. Is that because the sheet goes from the center of the beam to the traveler to the clew of the sail? I can understand why, if this were the case, that adding additional purchase between the sail and the car would reduce the force pulling the sail toward the center of the boat. The sheeting force would have to be offset by the wind force pushing the sail outboard and by adding more purchase between the jib clew and the traveler, that meant the force on the single sheet running to the travler is less to achieve the same tension in the jib. The solution to this used by our current self tackers is to have the sheet go forward on the spin pole to a turning block located nearest the jib tack, then to the jib traveler, then to the clew of the sail (2:1 between the clew and the traveler). This way, no matter how much tension is applied to the sheet, it always remains inline with the traveler jib load and gives the traveler no incentive to move. Wait...Ahhhhh (I'm just figuring this out)....BUT on a straight track, even if the sheet force is generating from the clew of the sail, it will still tend to pull the car to center...now I see. (I'm really figuring this out as I go).
OK - for simplicty I personally rate the straight track highly. However, getting proper sail trim depends too much on getting a perfect sail cut, batten tenson, free flowing pulley system with no corrosion, etc....and if you simply wanted to try sheeting your jib in tighter to flatten it in higher winds your adjustment is highly restricted. I agree that the jib will, by design, have to be sheeted tighter to maintain the same geometry in higher wind but you are limited again by reaction of the jib material, cut, shape, etc to higher loads...which changes throughout the life of a sail. Ergo, your jib trim is dictated by the design of all the contributing compenents and not what the sailor desires. The pure racer in me says "curved track" and the pleasure racer in me says "straight track" - and this is probably why you offer both systems.
I admit I've been my charming self in an extreme way.
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and that kind of stuff.
I submit to the judgement of the other readers and the appreciation of the truthfulness of my comments. It is wise to note that I can substantiate and proof all statements that I have made.
New posts are coming in with more example of the uniqueness of Bill statements.
You may dislike me for my charming character and yes I can fully understand that anybody would do that. I know myself, I'm not to best guy to have at a party. However this never changes a thing about the things say or have said.
I only care about the truth.
Also I think Bill get on just fine at any local bar over a pint. We'll have a heated discussion but what else is new between scientist / designers / academics ?
Most of us brainiacs live for this stuff, we don't mean anything by it. I'm not about to kill Bill or something I don't talk down his willingness to try new things in any way. That is quite interesting stuff actually, it just part ways when these very same thinking-out-of-the-things are all magically better than anything anybody else has done.
But I can give you good news as well. My illness is curing now and next week I'll be back to my usual daily routine and I won't post nearly as much then. I think my aching throat, general feeling of discomfort, running nose and boredom has sort of aggrivate my allready impressive skill for being unpleasant.
So light is at the end of the tunnel !
Regards,
Wouter
This maybe off on a slight tangent, and it may be a stupid question, but I am just curious: When you have a self-tacking jib, would it be more efficient if it was fully-battened?
I have heard that the theory, in terms of the Hobie 16 jib, for instance, is that being fully battened makes it as effective as a larger, overlapping jib would be. Is that true?
Why don't you use Bills trick of increasing the purchase between rail and clew ? That will work sufficiently enough to make the problem a lot less. Would be a rather effective quick fix
Wouter
Wouter,
This forum is not for what you are using it for. We have some communication problems. If we could talk face to face for a while in private, most of them could be solved.
For example: Shared lift--- The foot of a real "spinnaker" to me comes all the way back to the rear beam. This large sail has a low lift to drag ratio with the resulting thrust vector passing across the boat forward of the CB, trunk located at the shroud, with a large athwartship component which causes lee helm. The very short footed "gennakers" which are trimmed to the main beam have a much higher lift to drag ratio and the resultant thrust vector is more aligned to the direction of the boat and does not cause lee helm. So, the size and shape of the spinnaker or gennaker or whatever you want to call this large foresail determines whether or not the boat developes lee helm with its use.
ARC17 PN Rating---The 70 PN rating for the ARC17 was arrived at by Rick White using U S Sailing Rules. If you have a problem with that, write Darline Hobock. I write her frequently and disagree with some PN numbers and rules that determine these numbers.
Righting Bar---Supercats are rigged with a righting bar. This is not true. All SCs and ARCs are rigged with a shroud extension righting system.
Texel speed record--- I do not live in Holland. I only know about the speed record that I set in a real race on race day around the Isle of Texel. The details of setting a race record on a non race day with no competition and in a totally different environment from a real race, I know nothing about. This seems strange to me, maybe a little hollow or false. It sounds more like practice to me. In the Indy 500 or the Daytona 500 races lap records set in practice don't count. Records are only set in a real race. In Formula 1 racing can you set a record in practice?
My being so "sure about things" is your interpretation---I do know when ARC put the items into production that you listed. I have never seen A NACRA self tacking jib. Possibly this was on a few boats in California only. I can see that a self tacking jib with the tack up at the top of the forestay bridle and the clew down at the main beam would be a small sail with a short luff and not very high performance. The spinaker pole and the pelican stricker tube with a low jib tack, long luff jib, can turn this situation around even with a slight loss in jib area. I had a self tacking jib on my RC27 within a year of starting to use a spinnaker in 1983.
As far as the ARC22 that went to France in the early 1990s--- I only know what the owner told me about his many visitors interested in the technical points on his boat especially the self tacking jib.
Curved tracks for self tacking jibs---There can be straight tracks and slightly curved tracks and curved tracks to the radius of the foot of the jib used on self tacking jib systems. The straight tracks and the slightly curved tracks work the same. The jib sheet controls the sail shape and car position. The slightly curved track encourages the car to run out a little more quickly than the straight track and holds the sheeting angle more constant. The track bent to the radius of the foot of the jib requires the additional control line to set the position of the jib car along the traveller track. I've experimented with them all, Wouter, prior to 1992.
Wouter, I think this is enough of this spewing of hot air and challenge over things that are not important. I think you can see that we don't disagree over things as much as you make it out to be. To make these types of entries on the forum is a waste of everyones time.
Bill
Bill asked:Rick – How well would the Ratchamatic work if it wasn’t attached to a firm base – or would you recommend that I install them on the chainplates and eliminate the wires across the tramp?
Just like any other sheeting block, they do not have to be attached to a firm base. You do want to keep them straight and not roll over, etc. That is remedied in a couple of ways.
1)We used to bungee the cleat bail of the block forward or to the other block to stop them from turning over.
2)Use one of Harkens springy things that attaches below the block and between the block and the attachment point.
But, I am not sure what you are asking here, but you need to have the adjustability for your jib sheeting location. The 6.0 has really powerful sails and the jib leads need to be adjusted to various wind conditions.
Several of us got together and did some speed testing on the 6.0 when we first got our boats. We discovered that jib lead settings were highly important -- they needed to be adjusted to different wind conditions.
For example, in lighter air they performed better with the jib lead set in an a bit forward, although sheeting was very tender.
In heavier winds the leads went out and aft.., this allowed the slot to open more and thereby not backwind the mainsail.
I don't feel as if I am answering your question, however. Perhaps you might rephrase it.
Good luck,
Rick
pics I took fer you guys
pics I took fer you guys 2
pics I took fer you guys 3
pics I took fer you guys 4
pics I took fer you guys 6
pics I took fer you guys ,
F18 is planning to allow fully battened jibs by 2007 (giving you folks PLENTY of time to plan ahead...again, no arms race!). It will be interesting to see what it will offer but I'm not sure what it will do for performance and tunability. On one hand I think the all fabric jib gives you more feedback - but I've never sailed with a fully battened jib so I'm not sure.
Picture nr 2: What on earth happend with the cat on the trailer in the background? Hit by a really fast powerboat??
Also, why the plastic ball on the end of the sheet, visible just behind the block on the jib?
What is the reason behind the high clew on the jib? Is it necessary or could it be lowered without sheeting block to block in a blow (or is your mast to be raked more) ?
I saw that too - and I think it is an answer to the question I pondered previously. If the user wants to maintain more tension on the jib without it coming inboard so much (i.e. higher wind), you hook that ball into the spring clip located on the travler. That adds one more purchase to the jib sheeting arrangement giving you more tension on the jib clew without increasing the load on the single sheet coming from the bridle foil (which would make the jib want to come to center).
Exactly Jake, it is a doubler, only used in higher wind, and when beating. It is released when reaching and downwind.
Rolf, long story on the other boat in the background, but you hit it right on the head. I was T-Boned by a 31' Monterey that was fully planing, (20+ knots?)I never saw a thing. My psychiatrist told me to buy another boat immediatly (that is what I told my wife) to recover from the poat traumatic stress that ensued.
I saw that too - and I think it is an answer to the question I pondered previously. If the user wants to maintain more tension on the jib without it coming inboard so much (i.e. higher wind), you hook that ball into the spring clip located on the travler.
Err, ok.. If I have got this right then, this jib setup has two modes besides what you can achieve with sheeting. Low and high wind setting, adjusted by increasing the purchase between jib and track.. I begins to sound a bit complicated to me, as compared to the curved track with stoppers.
Would be interesting to do some two-boat testing, and see if the auto-adjustment feature of the straight track was faster or slower in the pure boatspeed sense (perhaps you already have done so Bill?).
Wouter: Yes, I'll do some testing with increased purchase between the jib and jib-track when the season starts again. Altough we are quite satisfied with the simple and powerful cascade system we have today.
The original question seems to have been thoroughly answered by now tough. 
It is a little dark, i'll try another. Aren't digital cameras great?
another angle
Hey Eric,
Can you send me a referral to that Psychiatrist? I want to add an Inter 20 to my fleet.
Rick - Sorry for the vague question. However you got to the heart of my question. I wasn’t sure the blocks would work if they flopped down on the tramp and I wasn’t sure how you would keep them pointing in the right direction.
If I read your answer correctly, you’re recommending I use the springs at the attachment point and a bungee between the two new blocks. However, wouldn’t they still move fore & aft - or would the springs (along with the bungee) basically do the job?
Eric – Thanks for all the pics – they’re worth a thousand words!
Question for you - Instead of returning the jib sheet below the crossbar & tramp from the forestay, do you think it would work going over the crossbar to a block attached to the crossbar? I would like to avoid cutting a hole in the tramp.
Bill
And there goes the "automatic" part !
The tornado guys need to come in to the mast in order to adjust the jib sheeting, if we believe Bill, and you must go past that to go to the far leeward side and pull on that plastic bead and hook it to the car.
I rest my case.
And please forgive me arbo, it is nothing personal to any of you and I still think such a straight track is a good option for cruisers and such. Just not because it is better but because it is so easy to implement even with a tensioned wire.
Regards,
Wouter
These battens are really soft and the jib curves up quite well at the luff with them. You can still steer by the curving of the luff.
Benefits ? It dependents. I helps upwind work apparently but hurt broad reaching. So as all things it is a trade-off.
However on spi boats it appears to work well. Not much of non-spi broach reachign there.
Wouter
Bill,
Having owned a 6.0NA, I'm familiar with the setup that you have. Most 6.0 Owners changed from the cross wire "cheese slicer" to modifying their trampoline with a series of gromets and a high-tech line laced through them. The bottom of each jib block would have a snap shackle by which it would be attached to the various loops of line on the trampoline. Here's a couple of pictures.
Having the jib block lying on the trampoline was never a big problem for me and I never had to deal with the cheese slicer because I was the skipper . The crew always bitched and moaned about it though... However, occasionally a jib block would wedge itself neatly under the cheese slicer and would not come free without going to the low side to manually free it. You can keep that from happening by simply putting the block on a short 3" pigtail going back to the wire pulley. That gives enough separation so that even if the block goes under the wire, putting tension on the jib sheet will pull it clear.
and #2
wouter,
Bill can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't thonk the doubler is needed. I was under the impression that the previous owner of the boat added it.
Get well soon,
Eric