Inter 17 advice

A !-17 guy at my club had the same trouble in todays clubrace. So if you get an answer please post it and I will forward it to him !

He has also unable to outpoint and outrun my Prindle18 on a very long upwind leg (against the currents). Theoretically he should smoke me with those daggerboards and being cat rigged.

Wouter

In 15-20 knots of wind, it should be no problem keeping a hull flying, rather more of a problem keeping the forward momentum as you feather up to keep from blowing over. Given that, sheet out on the mainsheet to drive the center of effort lower on the mainsail. Playing the mainsheet to maintain the windward hull just out of the water is what you need. If the boat is not driving forward as a result, then travel out a bit. The weight of the skipper will be the determining factor on how much you need to travel out to keep the boatspeed up. This method will not allow you to point as high as you can with everything travelled in and sheeted in, but in 15 -20, I am always feathering up to depower the boat. I hope this helps.

Les Gallagher

Inter 17R USA 104

little yellow boat

Wouter,

Thanks for the reply. Look at the next posting by Les,....I always look for a expert,,,....looks like Les is it.

regards,

Bruce

ps,...congrarts to you for smokin' the I17! ha!

LEs,

1. I see your pics in the CAT HOUSE site. Nice

2. I need to pick your brain,..ok?

3. I am 230 dry,....so after all the gear and getting wet there is more weight,...right?

4. I sail a I-17,.....not the R (...in my area, I can barely hold this one down,....I could not imagine MORE sail area..!)

5. No spin (...the next step,....next year)

6. Again, I need your advice.

7. I have found leaving the Main Set,...and travelling down, to get that 'groove'. When a 'blast' comes,..I will steer up,...which works,...but I am sacrificing speed(..I can feel it),...then as the 'blast' passes I just steer down a clock or 2 to get the hull 'skimming'....am I chickening out?

8. In St. Croix, summer is 15mph (+/-3).....in the Winter it is 20 (+/- 5),...most of the races ( Rolex, BVI, St.Croix International,St. Martin Heinekin, Puerto Rico Heinekin)

9. I am the Only I-17 in fleet, The only boat I have not beat is a tricked out P-19MX with a semi pro driver., The N5.8, P19, H16,TheMightyHobie18, H18M,...the I-17 got them all.

10. What drives me crazy is the I-20,...they just sit with one hull up all the time (..I was on one yesterday,...in calm waters,...when on the wire, I kept losing balance??)

11.. Les, Remember, in a 3 foot Caribbean wave, that is 3 feet up and 3 feet down...6 feet total dimension,.....one my be 3,...the next 10 may be 2,...then next 2 are 4 footers,...on and on and on

Thanks1

Bruce Andryc

#50 I-17

St. Croix

In general, I have found that 1 man uni-rigs are not competative when the winds are above 12-15 kts. You just can't hold them down. The only single handed cats I have seen, that are competative in heavy air, are A-cat with heavy skippers.

I never found any magic formula to make a N5.5uni work in heavy air. To make the most out of your boat going upwind, steer through the waves, like they are hills. If you are slamming into waves and coming to a stop, you are not doing it right.

Bruce,

1. Thanks for the compliment on my boat's appearance! I am VERY pleased with how it came out!

2. I am always glad to lend a helping hand when I can.

3. I weigh 200 lbs. Anytime you get wet, you add more weight. 230 lbs dry plus gear plus everything being wet will result in being somewhat heavier.

4. I sailed the I-17 before my

R

rig was delivered and the I-17 has plenty of power without the taller mast and added sail area. In your winds, I don't think the

R

is required, however, a carbon mast is a big plus! It is easier to right and suffers less performance degradation from the pitching in waves. I will never go back to aluminum after sailing with a carbon mast.

5. The spinnaker will add significantly to the pleasure of this boat! You won't believe how fast it goes downwind!

6. I am glad to help.

7. I would not call your actions

chickening out

. It is one way to deal with the issue of preventing being blow over. The books say that the fast way to deal with this situation is to sheet out and bear off to drive through the blast to take advantage of the increased power. I have tried this and the speed is maintained. I seem to revert to feathering up and getting closer to the weather mark but am not sure that I wouldn't be better off to bear off through the blast using the mainsheet to keep the boat flying a hull just above the water.

8. I dream of having such winds. Here in Michigan, we don't see 15+mph winds during our weekend races more than once or twice a summer. Some of us change boats (to ice boats) in the winter! I ski instead of ice boat.

9. You are doing better than your Portsmouth number indicates. The I-17R number with spinnaker is about the same as the N5.8.

10. The I-20 has alot more power than the I-17 and it has a skipper and crew to continually make adjustments. The most powerful tool to keep that hull skimming is the downhaul that the crew plays as the the boat goes upwind. I did this with a friend on his I-20 and I could keep the hull just skimming the tops of the waves. Really cool! Unfortunately, with only two hands, I prioritize the steering (#1) and mainsheet when I am on the wire on the I-17R. That means I leave the downhaul on the boat.

11. I am sure you know better than I do about going up and over the waves...about powering up to drive up a wave and then taking advantage of the downhill ride going down them. Even in the little waves I see on the Great Lakes, this makes a significant difference in keeping the boat driving hard and fast. For us, catching waves and driving over them going downwind makes the difference between winning and being an

also ran

in our races.

Sounds like you are doing great on your I-17! Keep having fun!

Les Gallagher

Inter 17R USA 104

little yellow boat

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>Edited by sparky on 07/23/01 09:00 AM.

I sail a Taipan 4.9 as a uni with a Hooter for off the wind. In my experience I have found that the downhaul in these and most cats that I have sailed is probably one of the most important tools to trim.

Knowing that you are a bit busy -- one hand for the sheet, the other for the tiller -- it still is a good idea to have a long downhaul sheet that you can lay in your lap or have nearby and trim when the wind pipes up for a while, and ease when it lets up.

At the end of the downhaul line I usually just tie a bowline around the trapeze bungee cord -- that way the downhaul is nearby at all times. If I need it, I just reach down and grab it and trim.

Just in case you don't know, the downhaul will bend the mast. The bending mast will allow the fullness of the sail (built into the luff curve) to fill the vacancy left by the bending mast and thereby flatten the sail. The flatter the sail the easier to control the hull flying, and the faster you will go in the heavier air

Crude presentation, but then again it is early on Monday.

Good luck,

Rick White

Rick,

Thanks, Rick. I will give it a try this weekend! As this relates to the St. Croix posts, by the time it is blowing 15+, I usually have used all of my downhaul, the sail is flat as a board, and I am just trying to keep the windward hull near the water!

It is clear that I could use another dose of the Rick White Sailing Seminar, especially since the last time I was sailing the N5.5Uni and I have the new boat (well, year old boat). Last time, I did the 3- day seminar here in Michigan. That drive to the Keys is just soooo far! I may still find a way to bring my boat to the Keys next April. It is always a great benefit to attend your seminars! Any idea on the guest instructor for next April?

Les Gallagher

Inter 17R USA 104

little yellow boat

I sail an Inter 20 and note once the breeze picks up to 12 plus or so I have a hard time keeping the boat down and the speed on. The boat jumps out of the water and I have a tendency to feather up (driving S curves). At this point the downhaul is on hard. Nothing like on a N6.0 where you could play the downhaul in high winds and just squirt the boat forward. I guess the next approach is to play the travelor.

So my upwind performance on the I-20 sorta stinks. I need a new approach.

Mark

Inter 20 no. 274

Houston, TX

Mark

Matt Struble just tuned my I-20, Now everyone thinks I finally learned to sail. Moved my spreaders back to 2.5

& really increased the pre-bend. I was concerned about sailing with 400lbs on the boat, But Matt said

the mast now matches the sail" seems to work at Tawas, we were in the middle instead of last.

Thanks for the info,....see all this stuff helps. I find the wind OK to deal with on the 1-17. In the St.Croix International in Feb '01,...it blew 30+ all day long with a squall going thru the course (...got weather info later)..at 45 mph,....all the I-20s kept flying their chutes....

I never flipped,...just pinched my way around the course,....the waves were killers.

Good tip on the wave attach,.....I usually get about 80% of them,...its those 20% ers that outfox me.

Keep writing

Bruce

St. Croix

Rick,

1. Thanks for the tips,...see the expert stuff takes years out of the learning curve,....so keep writing!

2. Now, for my next ' chicken out',...I am truely considering the HOOTER with Furling on the I-17,....I have no other I-17 ao I do not have to worry about being out of class.....so Rick,...how would you set up a I-17 (normal) with your configuration?

3. Unless I grow another arm or two,.....or if the Trade Winds stop blowing in the Caribbean,...I could not consider a 'snuffer' spinnaker.

Bruce Andryc

St. Croix

Mark,

1. I talked to a I-20 owner here.

2. When you hit 12 or so,...travel down 4-5-6 inches

3. leave downhaul off

4. leave mainsheet normal

5. play downhaul in blasts

6. keep 'sneaking' trav down until it 'feel' fast.

7. I have seen I-20 scream upwind with hull up and stable at 4 feet like they have invisable 'legs' or something.,,,,,of course this was Niles from Florida,...John Holmberg from St. Thomas,..and Keke Figuroa from PR......they all had to learn sometime,...right?

8. Next step,...ask Rick White for advice

regards,

Bruce Andryc

St. Croix

I sail a Taipan 4.9.

In heavy air I increase downhaul to depower mainly to desensatise the boat to the gusting.

I ease the traveller a little to make the boat drive . (Otherwise it points great but goes slow.)

To compensate for the lost pointing I ease the outhaul a little.

Now I'm driving and pointing.

Once I've got these right I just steer the boat to keep the windward bow a couple of inches above the water.

In the gust it helps to steer up a little before you have to that way you get to accellerate at the same time. If you wait until your lifted too high you tend to slow down too much.

Just the way I play the game.

Hope it helps.

Phill

Phill. Rick and Les,

1. Thank you for the tips.

2. Going out Wedns nite to try it on

3. thanks to all the rest of info!

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

Phill said

:I ease the traveller a little to make the boat drive . (Otherwise it points great but goes slow.)

See the reason for Phill's claim of letting the traveller out a bit.

go to :

http://www.geocities.com/kustzeilen/sailvectors.html

And look at the two graphs at the bottom of the page.

you'll see that given equal angles of attack the boat on 30 degrees has about the same heeling forces as the 45 degree boat but it's thrust (drive) is only about 60 % of the boat on 45 degrees to the winddirection. So pointing to depower can easily be a bad move. Reducing the angle of attack by letting the traveller out a bit could be better.

I hope this clarifies things a bit more.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter!

Bruce

St. Croix

To ALL,

1. Thanks for the tips,....went out last evening,..15+,...sailed for 1 hour before dark,.....tried to do the new aspects.....working on it.

2. Tom and Scott rigged up their I-20 as I came in,...at dusk, they were still out there!

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

Phill,

1. I was out yesterday,.stayed inside the reef,...so I wouldn't have to deal with the waves.

2. I tropical wave was beginning to come, so I wanted to try out all the new pointers..

3. blowing 20+ , steady, with light gusts,.....

4. Once I gave the I-17, 3 inches of release on the outhaul,....man did that boat settle down,.....like magic,....oh it would still react to a gust,...but in a more controled manner,...

5. I felt a little ( 10-15%) slo,......cause?,.....cure.

Thanks to all,

Bruce

St. Croix

Bruce,

Just wondering if your traveller was still centred when you eased the outhaul.

My findings are that these two have to be set relative to one another allowing the appropriate sheet tension. When the match is right it all works.

If the traveller is too close to centre you may not be able to apply enough sheet tension to get the top of the sail working properly.

Also if you release the outhaul too much relative to the traveller the helm will increase. It depends on the setup of the rudders if the magnitude of this is felt. But it can slow the boat.

When this is wrong on my Taipan I can feel it and when it's right I can also feel it. (It feels like you need to dig your toe nails into the boat to stay with it)

What was happenning at the top of the sail?

Maybe ease the traveller a little and sheet on harder.

It's hard to know for sure without seeing it

Maybe you could experiment a little more with both outhaul (more/less) ,traveller and mainsheet tension?

I'd be interested to hear how the experiments go.

Phill,

1. I was out Saturday in the front end of a tropical wave,...so the wind was 20+ gusts.

2. I have to travel down starting about 12-14........that day I was 10-12 inches off of center,......I mainsheeted tight,....notice the top flutter a little, so I sheeted harder to get rid of it

3. By this time downhaul is 100%,...

4. I was training with a I-20,..I made them promise to leave the spinn ashore!

5. THEN I RELEASE 3 inches on the OUTHAUL,....boat settled like it never did before,....it would lift up in a gust and stay right there! (...before this adjustment I would be 5 feet off the water and rounding up to keep it together!)

This was exactly what I was looking for,...now I need to regain the 20% lost speed,...suggestions?

Bruce

St. Croix

ps. Tom on his I-20 was 'wild thinging' like a pro....said it was good to sail downwind without the chute, for practice.....he would totally wipe me out ...ha!

Bruce,

Three things to consider. In order that I would try.

First Downhaul- let it off and reapply it until the boat is just under control. It is important to have it on but if you have applied more than needed it can kill the boat

It bends the mast too much and the top of the sail lays off too much and stops working (you said it was fluttering). To make it work you increased sheet tension which may also make the leach in the bottom of the sail a little too tight.

This boat will feel very easy to handle but a bit like you left the hand brake on.

Second look at rotation.

If I carry too much on my Taipan it can affect the boats inclination to drive forward and hence slow you down.

The last thing I'd consider is back to the outhaul. Possibly 3 inches is too much.

I hope this helps.

Phill

Phill,

1. Will do as you instructed.

2. Will start with downhaul off,...then adjust as needed.

3. I had rotator pointing at the centerboards,....that will be about 45-50 degree rotation. You thinking too much? What do you suggest?

4. There is a range of 6 inches ( I believe,...now I will check this) in the outhaul adjustment. You suggest 1-2 inches?

Thanks ,...this is a great way to share info,....I appreciate the help and interest!

regards,

Bruce

ps, will be out tomorrow to try this info out

Bruce,

On my boat 45deg in those conditions would be too much.

The spanner would be pointing at the rear beam probably where it meets the hull. This will vary from boat to boat and even with different main sails. It really is a case of experimenting with your particular setup, but I think you will do better with less rotation.

I have a tell tale an inch or so back from the luff of my sail about half way up. I use this to set my rotation in light to med conditions. Looking for laminar flow on both sides. But once the breese really kicks in I go by feel as they stream over a much wider range of angles.

As far as ouhaul goes it also depends on the cut of your sail

so once again all I can suggest is experiment, preferabley with a training partner to guage progress.

Good Luck,

Phill

Phill,

1. Thanks for the continued help. Thee are no other Uni's in St. Croix,..so I train with a I-20 and a Fox.

2. I changed the mast diamond spreader configuration. It was sweptback at a bout 3+ inches at center. Set it at 1 inch.

3. The range of outhaul on the I17 is 4 inches. I measured. So I adjust it to 1 inch now from 'full tight'.

4. I put less rake in,..adjusted it forward

one hole

on the side stays.

5. Wind was out of the SE today,..so sailed in the lee of the island,...what a joy, no waves to speak of...wind was 10 mph max,...what another joy,.....boat tacked effortlessly.

Keep the info coming Phill,...I am thankful for it!

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

You have a wing mast Phill and aren't they rotated less rthan normal crossection masts ?

Wouter

Wouter,

In answer to your questions.

Yes I do have a wing mast on my Taipan and it does carry less rotation but this is more evident in lighter conditions.

As the wind strength increases the difference between rotation angles decreases.

From memory I would not be carrying any more rotation in the 15 to 20 range on my Cobra which had a conventional shaped mast, than on my Taipan.

From your post I gather the I17 does not have a wing mast.

This surprises me.

If the I17 has a conventional mast ,because of turbulence from the mast, it is more difficult to use luff tell tales to set rotation.

Wouter

Wouter, Phill, others,

1. To my eye, the Inter masts ( carbon or aluminum) LOOK similar to the Prindle and Nacra stock mast (...I walked around looking at them,...probaly looked strange..oh well..)

2. I talked the I 20 (Tom) into leaving his jib onshore and sail it alone,...he was a little uncertian at first,....but,..he is turned on to the fact that he can one man a I 20 w main alone and have fun too,...plus I got someone to train with.

3. Will sail tomorrow,...make report,....set up downhaul extension to trap line with thicker 'handle',...

Thanks to all,...and go sailing!

Bruce

St. Croix