J. Lovell vs R. Daniel: the fight for Quindao

Drama, drama, drama. What happened?

From SDYC :

In winds of 5 1/2 to 8 knots, they won Sunday's races by 59 and 71 seconds, after their protest Saturday against Daniel/Stunzi and Norman and Gary Chu for team racing against them was disallowed the night before. The competition got feisty at times.

Aaaa...that would be a

No

.

Gee, Jill was pi**ed off. Sounds like the game was extended to the protest room for strategic reasons. Guess we will never know..

Well... a protest where you call someone a cheater will piss you off! Escpecially if they call YOU a cheater.

quite a bit different then a protest over a judgement error on the race course or a rules interpretation while racing or in measurement.

Those protest papers.. ought to be made public!

It's one thing to loose.... It's quite another to have your integrity questioned.

Wouldn't you have to specify which rule you believed was being broken?
Was there a specific allegation made?

Cheating

is a broad allegation. It also cast questions about the integrity of the team making the protest to state that they made a false claim.
The only way to clear the air is to make the FACTS known.

Mark,

sorry if I insulted you, Jill, Robbie or others. Was not the intention.
I was just leaning back in the couch and thinking about the state of the

game

the olympians are playing and how different it is from the level I sail. In that perspective, not much should be a surprise when the olympic berth are at risk. Last time Jill was that worked up was when we disscussed charter boats, remember?

When two or more teams train together for years, they need to be careful not to give even the appearance of cooperation out on the race course. This could mean doing more than avoiding obvious blatant fouls against an opponent, but also more subtle things like not pushing one's right of way against a training partner while doing so against a competitor. Certainly, it's a tough line to walk.

In the end, it made little difference...protest was disallowed, Lovell & Ogletree still had to win the last 4 races and they did.

Well, all we know is that a protest was filed claiming that Robbie and some team... not mentioned publicly, were in cahoots and team racing with the effect of trying to drive Johnny and Charlie down in the standings.

The protest was tossed out.

So, the protest is probably unsportsmanlike conduct... aka cheating.

This just stinks!

I agree with you.. ... its a small community... better for US Sailing to publish the papers and facts found then have us speculate about it.

If it's a pile of [censored]... so be it.

From Olli's Blog for Saturday:

Here are some big news of the day (if that’s what you want to call it); there is a protest underway by 808 against 836 and 804 for team sailing during the first race. I believe the accusation is that when 836 was in second place last time at the windward mark they slowed down which allowed 804 to catch up or something like that. I don’t really want to get into details as Pat was called as a witness and I don’t know if the hearing has concluded.
But personally I really don’t think anything like that would be going on from those teams. I know both teams personally and know that they would never even consider anything like that. There are lot of big kelp beds on the race course that we struggle to get through at times that really slow us down. This can make racing here very frustrating, in the light stuff especially.

Blog

I really would hate to see this get out of hand and hope that someone is able to clear up what happened before everyone speculates more about it.

I would not want to finish the regatta of my career and wind up being accused of cheating. Nor would I want to be stuck with the view that other competitors were doing something wrong. What a mess to have ending a long and intense series of races.

Be careful here folks with spin. First, employing match racing tactics against another competitor is perfectly legal and I'm sure that Robbie Daniel was expecting it from Johnny and Charlie. Johnny Lovell is an excellent match racer (he won the US Sailing Prince of Wales Championship one year) and I was not surprised at all to see them

go after

Robbie and Hunter since they knew they were the only competition.

Regarding the protest about the team racing, perfectly legal to file a protest if you feel it happened because team racing is not permitted. The facts found by the protest committee did not support it. Suggest this forum leave it at that. If you weren't there, you don't know.

Thank you, that was the only point I was trying to get too. Do not spin it out of control.

Agreed.

Whatever the facts and rights and wrongs of this situation, it's absolutely incredible to me that Scuttlebutt chose in their report tonight to present the result only through the eyes of Charlie Ogletree, including a link to L&O's campaign website. And surprise, surprise, there is no mention of any protest. If ever there was a time for independence in reporting, surely this is it. Can't help thinking it looks as if Scuttlebutt have been sucked into a PR campaign.

Oh and one minor point of amusement - L&O's website notes that the

World Championships in Tauranga, New Zealand are only a few months away

. Methinks they're going to be late for the start - since it's about 100 miles away in Takapuna!

I read the article and didn't come away with any negative feelings.

They won, and it appears the article took the high road and avoided mentioning the conflict. Those two skippers sailed the match of their careers. And it would be a shame to only highlight the off the waterr confrontation. Better to focus on the big picture.

The way it looks; one team saw something that in the heat of the event looked like B.S. and called them on it. Apparently, it was not so, and the second team was exonerated.
That was one heck of a match up. And when it came to crunch time the veteran team team pulled it out.
Let's move on.

Agree with much of what you say...

Absolutely.

Totally.

But -

I don't get.

I don't mean in any way to diminish the significance and worthiness of the victory. L&O are clearly insanely talented competitors. I have no judgment at all to make at all about the rights or wrongs of the protest. But the report is a different matter - I just think it's reasonable to expect those who use the appearance of being a reliable news source to make money to tell us the whole story.

When - as you said - they have

avoided mentioning the conflict

, when we know there was a conflict, and have chosen to tell a story we know has two sides through the eyes of only a single protagonist, I think it's reasonable to ask - why on earth did they do that? Why did they chose not to tell us part of the story? Why is this the

high road

? Why haven't they shown us the

big picture

.

I completely agree with you that

it would be a shame to only highlight the off the water confrontation

. I don't want them to do that. I don't expect them to do that. If they had used Jill Nickerson's report instead of Charlie's then I agree that would likely be the result. That would also be a very bad idea. But it is a very false dichotomy to suggest that the only alternatives are to completely ignore the conflict or to only talk about the conflict. I just want them to report what they know about what actually happened.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox. Not looking for an argument really. It's late. Maybe it'll look different in the morning.

I don't know that Scuttlebutt was reporting or just repeating Charlie's report from T-squared.

Mark, if I read this right, are you calling Johnny Lovell and Charlie Ogeltree cheaters?

If the situation would have been reversed, would you be calling Hunter and Robbie cheaters?

If I file a protest against you on the race course because I think I saw you violate a rule but the protest committee findings dicate otherwise and disallow it, am I now a cheater for filing the protest against you?

With all due respect to you, I want to believe your comments were premature or not as I am reading them.

Bob Hodges

nobody cheated - the system was used, the system acted, and the decision was made that there was no foul play. If I lost on the water because I lost focus as a result of a favorable result from a protest hearing, it was my fault I lost.

I can see how emotions run extremely high in such a close tight battle with such high stakes and I would also probably be inclined to be upset after such a heartbreaking loss - but I must say that, while any controversy is...well...controversial, the system handled it well.

No. I am not saying Johnny cheated.

The protest by Johnny against Robbie and Gary is that THEY are cheating. (Not Johnny cheating)

This team racing protest is not just violation of a sailing rule (hitting a mark and not doing a circle ... but pre meditated cheating on the part of your competitor. (Team racing).

The protest was filed inspite of the fact that Johhny was winning the race when he alleged that the cheating occured behind him.

The majority of the huge protest was tossed and reduced to did Gary hit a kelp field and stop or did he cheat and let Robbie pass. Since, Johnny was well ahead... Hard to see how he could know the deal. But he claimed that Robbie and Gary were cheating by team racing.

So... You can allege cheating by your competitors on the slimest excuse and it was judged BS and denied.

The protest IMO was a pre meditated move on Johnny's part and just BS Gamesmanship to [censored] with the head's of Robbie and Gary.

Is Johnny cheating... No. Did it work?... who knows, Johnny won.

The question though ... is this fair sailing... or world cup soccer were Zidane gets tossed for head butting his competitor when he looses it over the BS dialog with his competitor.
So... I guess the world is OK with ... Hey... whatever it takes to win... an attack is an attack... on the water or off.

BUT
But... where do Robbie and Gary go to have their reputations mended. You can't put this allegations back into the bottle by just saying protest denied... Move on.... nothing to see here.... lets not talk about it..... go get that white wash and put on a good PR Spin...

Great job guys

..

You clearly imply that J&C made up the allegation and the protest was a calculated move designed to break the focus of the rival team...and in your words is

not fair sailing

. This allegation you are making is just as bad, if not worse, than the whole situation. You have no grounds to make such an implication that the whole thing was fabricated on J&C's part.

PS - I doubt the result of the hearing was

protest is BS

but was probably more along the lines of

not enough evidence to support

. I, for one, am glad that the result of the hearing was that there was no foul play and I feel that it does exonerate Robbie and Hunter. However, I am kinda a

glass half full

guy.

Well said Jake. That's how I feel about this as well. I'd say I'm a glass is half full and my friend is at the bar getting the next one kind of guy.

Chris.

All part of the sport (and other sports) at this level. Any team that cannot mentally handle such tactics is most likely not ready for the games.

That is pretty much how I see it. In addition, it is a strong allegation none-the-less that John filed this as a

head game

. As far as I can tell, a protest was filed and denied, does that indicate cheating? I think not and the jury found that there was no substantial evidence to uphold the protest. This one thread has gone far enough on placing blame or accusations on either party.

You're right. But I don't have to approve or participate. Another way of stating your point would be,

If you're not prepared to be an SOB, you can't be a champion.

More than once I have heard

cut-throat

competition cited as the main cause for the demise in our sport.

Just my opinion.

Both of you demonstrate the problem with the fall out from this paricular protest in this context.

if there is just

Not enough evidence

that you are a cheater...

Where does that leave you.... exonorated... or just not guilty as charged?

IMO, You have been Smeared!

It's like the Fox News approach to reality.... On the one hand.... and on the other hand He ran over his grandmother.... You decide!

I will let the issue drop.
(I will just step over the steaming pile of [censored] that we would much rather go away.... then honorably clean up... sadly I will behave like the rest of the community.)

In many ways, isn't any protest based on a contention that someone cheated or sailed unfairly? Someone hit a mark, failed to yield right of way, tacked too close, etc. By your logic, there should not be any protests because they could harm the accusee's reputation even if the outcome is in their favor.

I don't think you are considering that Johnnie and Charlie might have actually thought that there was some wrong doing...if they genuinely thought that, were they wrong for filing a protest? I'm sure they were desperate to put some boats between them and they would have been sensitive to what they claim to have witnessed.

I'm not proposing what motivation moved anyone to act as they did or even beginning to pretend that I have any idea what actually happened - only stating that nobody here could possibly know what that was so to jump to a conclusion that J&C behaved

unfairly

is no different that jumping to a conclusion that Chu intended to let Robbie pass. We can't possibly know the motivations of these people at that moment - only that the system determined that there was no foul and I'm good with that.

I'm not even going to start on the Fox News methodology! <img src=

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If you feel that strongly, why not protest to the Olympic Committee?

If there is

no

substantial evidence, then the protest is spurious and perhaps a violation of the fair sailing rule.

Keep in mind, we are talking about the Olympics.

Cheating

is so rampant the IOC has to have a very aggressive anti-doping rule.

And it is definitely true. The main cause for the demise in our sport is cut-throat competition.

We all have enough of that in professional life. Sailing should be for fun, not for fights.

Just my opinion.