kite sailing, anybody tried it?

Nice jab. I guess people don't forget.

In reference to the accident I have read three different news reports on that accident and all three give a different story.

However... You essentially have a 17 year old boy, no helmet, family watching, conditions way beyond his ability. Guess what would happen if you did that on/in any vehicle.

I have a faint recollection of the time when "testosterone ruled".

Kites like anything have to be refined by thoughtful designers with a strong inclination towards erring on the safe side.

The newer kites have depowering systems that dump the lift when you release the control bars.

I wish kitesurfing would go the way of the lawn darts.

Here'a a link to the American Kiting Association for a bit of info.
http://www.aka.kite.org/?traction.html

I'm developing a small Cat for kiting, it's steered with the feet like a kite buggy. First trials promissing...
See it on the site www.kite-cat.com
Any comments welcome, John

Interesting!

Peter Lynn apparently did some work with this idea. I believe he sold a verson.

I believe Peter Lynn's was a buggy with each wheel replaced by a float. I was told the turning cicle was very large. This one with normal rudders attached to foot pedals is very responsive in turning, and with a good pull from the kite, it leans back and really takes off. Hope to have some video on the site to download soon.
John

I agree... the design with lots of rocker and rudders and less length would definitely make it more manoeverable. Sounds interesting!

Thanks for your interest Alan. I've just bought a Naish ARX 9.5, 7.5 on Ebay to use with the Cat, as it has only been tried with foils so far. Except the time with the Slingshot 13 in a wind which meant it was overppowered. As soon as I have tried it with the ARX, will post some details.
All the best, John

for the record ... I am in the process of learning kitesurfing and it is an absolute BLAST! One caviat: it is dangerous. No playing around; please if you consider buying one and "winging it" ... spend the dollars and take a lesson from a professional ... I know that you think it is not applicable to learn to "ski / surf" as "I will be using this on a boat". Just to get used to the dangers and power of this extremely large beast ... take a lesson and save a live (your own and/or a bystander). These kites, inflateables or foils can dive at 35+ mph with 600 lb test lines at anywhere from 10 to 30 meteres (30 m is advised for learning) and can cut of a digit or two before you know it is looped around something. The flip side to the danger is the raw power when you dive it into the power zone. As someone above stated ... start small to figure it out. Several manufacurers make smaller foil versions to learn (but still very powerful) from around 1 square meter to about 5 square meters ... NOTE these "smaller" kites still pack a wallop and I would recommend just "tea bagging" or dragging around in water to learn. Take a lesson and try it out ... Very addicting and gives a new level to light air fun ... instead of plodding around in 8 to 10 mph .. you can plane / gybe / jump in same wind.

My 2 cents, Mac

Yea, that bridge will ruin your day. Doing a "George of the Jungle" will leave a mark. (not on the bridge)

Clayton

I'm interested in trying a kite sail on my NACRA (sans mast). I've found lots of info on kite sails, but next to nothing about how they attach to the boat. Where? On a track? Anybody seen anything on this?

CapmWoody

If you are thinking of the KiteShip type setup, then they can be attached anywhere you think is strong enough. On a beach cat, a good place would be on the main beam at the inner gunwales. Perhaps with a turning block at the bridle tangs. You don't want to attach to the mast, as the point is to eliminate the heel moment. When we set this up on Afterburner (a 52ft beachcat) we used a halyard line on the mast to control kite height when launching/recovering. Everything else was at deck level.

See www.KiteShip.com for details on their systems.

Mike.

http://www.amoka.com/movies/bergo.wmv

haven't tried it, but have seen one on a 3 man outrigger canoe. the kite lifted the canoe most of the way out of the water on the jibes. they told me it flipped once and took off without them. no fun.
they could get upwind alittle even without boards and with round bottoms. once airborne the platform isn't very stable. if you manage to stay with it after a capsize, rightng shouldn't be a problem. the mast doesn't really help you right a turtled cat. the righting line does.

Sailing (well sorta) and Skiing at the same time. Fantastic

The Texas City story is old now. WHat happened with Einstein and his kite-cat?
Dave Culp and Kiteship are not really interested in beach cats.
Does anybody know about Robby Naish's gear, and appropriate kites for beach cats?

I wouldn't say that...he was hounding me at one point to try one out on my Tboat. I think he will respond to anyone who want to experiment. Trick will be how to work out a control system so one man can launch/steer/retrieve the kite while the other steers the boat.

As I understand it, spinnakers were used on small catamarans in the 1960's.

GARY

Rick and I never saw any spinnakers on cats in the 1960's, but maybe people were experimenting in other parts of the country. Some friends of Rick tried a spinnaker on a Shark once up on Lake Erie. They said the boat took off like a scared rabbit and they almost got thrown off the back of the boat. Apparently, they were afraid to try it again.

I think they just put a normal large kite with airbladders on a heavy cat like a hobie 18. make a bridle and put a quick release in case of problems. 1 guy steers the other flies the kite. no mast.

on another note i believe that p cats have always had spinakers.

Shearwater started in the 50's

history

Home page

Thanks for the history. It sort of makes sense that the earliest catamarans would do what the monohulls were doing. But we just didn't see any of that on the East Coast of the U.S.

Of course, the P-Cat was designed with a spinnaker.
Never saw many in the eastern section of the USA.., mostly a west coast boat.
Rick

Kite have been a part of the Aussie cat scene as long as I can remember.. the two below had "Flatties" but otherwise "normal" spinacker setups..
The Yvonne Cat (6.1 meter) was designed with a kite.. I believe the Yvonne was designed by Charles Cunningham.. Was one of Cunningham senior's first cat designs.. It still a very active class..

Also the Kitty Cat was an offshoot of the New Zealand R Class Skiff. Thus it had a kite. I cant find a picture of a kitty sorry.. But from memory it was 12 foot long 6 foot wide one trap. Working sail area of 110 sq feet and a kite.

I cant recall if the Manta Cat had a kite.. It was either B class cat I believe or very similar size.. So may not have had a kite..

Stewart

You guys are getting stuck in a terminolgy problem. The thread initially referred to this kind of kite:

G'day,

Outleaders (www.kiteship.com) are different to board kites. They are launched from the boat not the beach and they do not have anywhere near the power zone. They are 20-50% more effective than a spinnaker due to flying higher in clearer, stronger air and not being affected by other sails or the boats motion.

Mostly though, they are safe. All the lines lead to the deck, so there is no heeling or nosediving. Biggest worry is getting airborne, more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat.

They have been used on big, slippery tris, a dismasted Newick was bought back from the Carribbean under a kitewhich was smaller than their assymetric. Went just as fast as the assy and main.

They don't need winches. We launched, flew, gybed and retrieved a 420 sqm/4,515 sq' Outleader on AAPT, a 20m/66' skiff in Sydney without once winding a winch. You do need snubbers, I have a bank of sawn off hardwood fenceposts mounted on a piece of 12x2 timber for my small kite. This can be strapped to a cross beam, a seat or a hull.

Conventional assy's have an aspect ratio of about 2:1. They are twice as high as they are wide, triangular and area is limited by the height of the mast/luff. 9m mast, max area is about 20 sq m. Outleaders are 1:4. Max hoist is 9m, but the max area is 162 sqm! And don't forget, they do not cause heeling or nose diving!

Outleaders are just getting going. As more and more hotshots use them, so will the techniques for flying them improve. Afterburner's first experience was not a good one. The Kiteship team will be sailing with them this summer to reverse this.

None have been used on beach cats yet, although I will be trying my 40 sqm/430 sq footer on my 7.5m/25' proa http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry/SailingPhotos_4.htm in a couple of weeks. Will let you know how it goes.

Peter Lynn's little cat was an awesome beast. Peter told me where to sit, how to steer with the pedals and how to trim and steer a kite. I climbed on, sailed off the beach (4 fixed stainless steel rudders, turned on a dime), through the surf and back and forth, upwind and down, for an hour or so. No problems, enormous fun. This was the first time I had used a kite, or steered with my feet. He was developing a 6m/20 footer while I was there, and I think he is now selling these.

regards,

Rob

You should do some fact checking on your info Rob,

More people have gotten killed by going airborn under a kite than by flying an assymetric spinnaker. As a result power kiting and buggy kiting are banned on the Dutch beaches and waters now. They may only sail at certain reserved spots and after acquiring a license. For buggy's you'll now need an official (landyacht) pilot license and you must do an exame for that.

20-25 sq.mtr is enough to fly 75-90 kg human beings (paragliders) so 420 sq. mtr. is enough to fly 1500 kg. How much did that 20 mtr skiff weight ? So what do you mean exactly by "more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat."

Maybe on mono's but not on beach cats

F18 => (8.25)^2/21 = 3.24 aspect ratio
Tornado => (8.75)^2/24 = 3.19 aspect ratio
F18HT => 9^2/20 = 4.05 aspect ratio

- 70's and 80's experiments

http://www.cobrakite.com/jaclad.html

- 80's world record set by Tornado platform with a kite

"Kite boats are already allowed in speed sailing. A world record was set and held for 7 years by a kite powered Tornado, back in the early 1980's"

Source : http://www.sailinganarchy.com/innerview/2003/daveculp.htm

Issues with kites :

- Try sailing under bridges or power lines
- Try bouy racing with them
- Try to stay in the water with them (not get fully airborn)
- Try sailing upwind with them
- The sagging of the lines transmitting the force is a serious problem in upwind sailing or high speed sailing.

With respect to efficiency of kites. Yes they are theoretically and practically more powerful than assies, however they (used to) have rather bad lift to drag ratios and are (were ?) far less attractive upwind dan normal sails. This ratio and the sagging of lines also impeded very high speeds. Landspeed records and water records (boats and surfboards) are once again set using conventional masted sails.

Kites are quite interesting but they are far less new or promising than some make them out to be.

Wouter

(Yes I did a stint at kite flying and building as well, several years back I must admit)

if you don't think that these kite people are suicidal just watch this crap.

http://www.wetasschronicles.com/KiteSurfWipeout.wmv

That guy deserves a Darwin Award.