kite sailing, anybody tried it?

>G'day,

> You should do some fact checking on your info Rob,
>
My first line was "Outleaders (www.kiteship.com) are different to board kites, they are launched from the boat not the beach and they do not have anywhere near the power zone." I am referring to Outleaders, not board kites. They are very different in design, use and capabilities. Sorry if this was not clear.

>> Mostly though, they are safe. All the lines lead to the deck, so there is no heeling or nosediving. Biggest worry is getting airborne, more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat.

> More people have gotten killed by going airborn under a kite than by flying an assymetric spinnaker. As a result power kiting and buggy kiting are banned on the Dutch beaches and waters now. They may only sail at certain reserved spots and after acquiring a license. For buggy's you'll now need an official (landyacht) pilot license and you must do an exame for that.

No one has been killed by an Outleader, and no one is likely to be. Plenty of people have been injured by breaking spinnaker poles, and there have been untold injuries caused by capsizing and nosediving caused by assymetrics. Neither of these happens with an Outleader.

> 420 sqm kite on a 20m/66' skiff 20-25 sq.mtr is enough to fly 75-90 kg human beings (paragliders) so 420 sq. mtr. is enough to fly 1500 kg. How much did that 20 mtr skiff weight ? So what do you mean exactly by "more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat."

The 20 mtr skiff weighs 7 tonnes. Plus it carries 3 tonnes of water ballast when flying the assymetric (390 sqm) in over 15 knots apparent. With the kite, the water is not required. See http://www.kiteship.com/ for pictures of the kite and boat.

I meant that getting airborne is more likely to be a problem on a beach cat than a big cat. Fly a big enough Outleader, in strong enough winds, you will leave the water. Not a big deal, because as the water foils (centrebopards, rudders) come out, the boat will go downwind, apparent will drop and you will come back down. With the ability to attach (by tweaking) the strings anywhere on the boat, the attitude of the boat is controlled. Attach them to the leeward hull and the boat will heel to windward. It will not capsize, it will not nosedive. It will just go faster and faster.

>> Conventional assy's have an aspect ratio of about 2:1
> Maybe on mono's but not on beach cats
> F18 => (8.25)^2/21 = 3.24 aspect ratio
> Tornado => (8.75)^2/24 = 3.19 aspect ratio
> F18HT => 9^2/20 = 4.05 aspect ratio

Maybe my post should have read _maximum_ aspect ratio. Your comments just reinforce my point, which was that an Outleader can be far, far bigger than an assymetric, on any size boat.

> Issues with kites :
>
> - Try sailing under bridges or power lines
No problem. Either fly the kite low, pull it in to close to the boat, or collapse it and let it stream until you are past, then reset it. None of these is a big deal.

> - Try bouy racing with them
Can't wait! The Outleader's advantages on the race track are many.
Blanket the opposition from 50m upwind.
Fly out from any wind shadow
Rapid hoist and recover
No capsize
No nosedive
Fully powered up through gybes, actaully accelerating as the main goes over
Safe
Much faster, much deeper
Always fly in clear air, unless you are sailing in a river with 30m high banks.
Much less effort, sheet trim is mostly easing. The sweet spot is much wider than for an assy.
No pole and bag sticking out the front to slow you down upwind

> - Try to stay in the water with them (not get fully airborne)
By the time you are airborne, you will be going much faster than you have ever been before.
> - Try sailing upwind with them
This is not possible. They are downwind sails. However, Peter Lynn has recently made big steps forward with upwind kites.
> - The sagging of the lines transmitting the force is a serious problem in upwind sailing or high speed sailing.
Far less so than the drag of poles, stays and masts. Outleaders can be flown hard against the forestay. They develop most power and stability on long lines, but they are not necessary. The sag on 50m of 3mm spectra is not huge, control is very simple. Most people pick it up within the first few minutes.
>
> With respect to efficiency of kites. Yes they are theoretically and practically more powerful than assies, however they (used to) have rather bad lift to drag ratios and are (were ?) far less attractive upwind dan normal sails. This ratio and the sagging of lines also impeded very high speeds. Landspeed records and water records (boats and surfboards) are once again set using conventional masted sails.

Not many records are set with assys, either. Outleaders are to help relatively inefficient (all beach cats and all offshore cats) boats go downwind. They would not be used or required on boats which have high enough apparent wind to always sail close hauled under working sail, such as your record breakers. They are not meant to be used upwind.
>
> Kites are quite interesting but they are far less new or promising than some make them out to be.

This used to be said about spinnakers, then assymetrics. You are right, they are _quite_ interesting. They are not that much different to a conventional spinnaker, but are a reasonable step forward in speed and safety. I suggest you have a go with one, you may be pleasantly surprised. Where abouts are you based? I will try to arrange a demo if you (or anyone else) is interested.

Outleaders do have down sides. The strings are a pain to store without a collector reel and the 3 mm strings can be hard on the hands. They cannot be used in breezes under 8 knots, although as we perfect the launching and flying techniques, this will change. At this stage, no development has been done on seriously rapid deployment and retrieving. Again, this will change as they are used more often.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks for your post, Wouter. Rob has said most of it. OutLeader kites are different--they're nothing like kitesurfing kites--nor like foils, nor like Peter Lynn kites, etc, etc.

KiteShip has been designing, building and sailing kitesailing kites for 26 years. We've done the flexifoil thing, we've done the kitesurf kite thing. We've been to Weymouth half a dozen times; we've done 30+ under kites. We're kite buggiers, kitesurfers, kite sailors, kite designers. Yes thanks, we understand the SEVERE limitations and the dangers of putting large, powerful kites onto small sailboats.

This is why we invented the OutLeader. Kites aren't new--they've been used for centuries to pull sail boats. OutLeader spinnaker replacement kites are new. They AREN'T designed to replace your rig. They AREN'T designed to sail upwind--any more than any other spinnaker is designed to sail upwind.

What they are designed to do is to kick spinnakers' butts. On all boats, at all sizes. They aren't meant to compete against kitesurf kites on kitesurf boards. These devices are great--well designed and well built. If you wanna fly, put one on your catamaran. Lotsa guys are trying to do this--not us.

OutLeaders are designed for the Rest of Us. Those of us who like to sit down, right on the boat (or trapeze!). In this use, they've been built--and successfully sailed, and raced, in sizes an order of magnitude larger than any other kite--ever.

If you're looking for a kick-butt spinnaker; check them out. If you're looking to blame kitesurf kites for damages, injury and destruction; talk to those other guys. They ain't us. 😉

(Check out AAPT, haulin' butt with the 420 meter OutLeader, attached!)

Cheers,

Dave Culp
OutLeader kites, by KiteShip

Heemstede, The Netherlands. Quite near to IJmuiden seaport with its large pleasure craft marina and the home port of the Dutch Volvo ocean boats.

I will certainly not pass on an invitation to experience an outleader. Always interested to learn more and judge new things.

Wouter

Hello Dave,

Yes I know of you. Very interesting background in kites you have.

I think you touched the cause of the misunderstanding. I judged the outleaders as the replacement of the classical rigs as indeed all other kite designs have tried to do.

I'll admit to misintepreting the outleader concept. But I'm catching up quite quickly. I have been over you website totally. Quite a interesting setup for the support lines you have. Truly the way to launch and retieve these things on a sailing boat. Indeed a big issue with most (other) kites.

I'm still very skeptical about the outleader boosting performance on beach catamarans though as we current sail downwind with the apparent wind angle coming from about 70-80 degrees forward. For any sail to work at these angles of attact it must be able to go upwind so to say and must have a good lift to drag ratio. Boosting performance on beech cats is not that simple anymore. But as a kite buggier you sure as hell know that.

Do you throw the assymetics as used on skiff and sport catamarans unders this target as well ?

Because I'm truly facinated by a outleader that can kick a Tornado sport's butt downwind.

With respect to me putting a power kite on my cat, no thank you, I've done my bit of harnassing the power of such devices. I think they are to difficult to control well on a beach catamaran in comparison to an assymetric. But then again I also switch to a conventional class 5 landyacht (with unstayed mast and mainsail)

Sure not looking to do that. Although we are trying to get the kite buggiers into our landyacht club structure because of their actions our sailing license is under scrutiny by the local county. To many cowboy's in buggy land, don't want to be doing pilot exams as landyachters had to do for 20 years now. But this is a totally different topic I agree with you there.

Dave one question I have for you. Can outleaders be used to sail faster downwind than the windspeed ?

Wouter

G'day,

Can't do anything this afternoon as I am in Perth, Western Australia 😉 but I will be in Europe from April this year racing Elementarry (my new proa). By then I should have figured out how to fly the Outleader on it and can give you 2 new experiences at the same time.

You are one of many people lined up for a sail, and I still don't know where I will be at any given time (except Texel 8-11 June). Please drop me a line in about mid April and we can organise something.

Regards,

Rob

Harry,

I guessed that much. I can wait though, years if I have to.

Do you know which races you are going to do ?

We probably need to give you a handicap rating. Did the Texel rating committee allow you in already ? My advice would be that if you don't have confirmation yet that you best seek it right now.

I won't pay for a test sail that I can tell you right now, but I can wait a long time so place me anywhere on the list were you want. Actually there is a good chance that I will be at Texel this year. I don't want to go but I think I have to this time. If I there I will look you and your boat up. The Elementary is easy to spot !

Regards,

Wouter

G'day,

I am in Europe specifically to provide people with experience on proas and with OIutleaders, so you won't have to wait long, and certainly won't have to pay, except by having me ask a bunch of questions about aerodynamics and engineering.

Still not sure of what races, as not all the Notices of Race are out yet, and a bunch of them overlap. Round the Isle of Wight, Cento Miglia, Bol d'Or and Round Gotland (Denmark) are high on the list, but Texel is the important one. At present we have been refused an entry, although this was for a far more radical proa. They have allowed us into the Dutch Open the week before for assessment purposes, to demonstrate a) that we can shunt as quickly as cats tack (no problem) and b) (could be wrong here) that we are not going to beat everyone by too big a margin. At present, this is certainly not a worry!!

Regards,

Rob

This is quite common and no offense taken. A lot of what we do is education.

Yes, especially in large sizes. Nobody else has successfully launched large kites; we do it everyday. The largest available commercial kite (except ours) is 25 sq meters. We just delivered one at 420 meters and are willing to build at 1000 meters. Not prototypes, but shipping products.

You are quite accurate and right to be skeptical. Under many conditions we cannot sail this high (principly in light winds; also with less than highly skilled fliers). Most boats, with less than half an hour's practice, can sail as high as 80-90 degrees. Under controlled conditions, we pulled a 2000kg truck across the California desert at speeds in excess of 35 mph, at apparent wind angles as small as 40 degrees, for protracted periods of time. This has not been matched by others as yet (we have some experience, you see. 😉

We are very confident. Perhaps overly so, but every boat we have put a kite on has reported an increase in speed. We offer a money-back guarantee if you don't sail faster with our kites--nobody in the business offers this but us. We don't just believe; we know.

I doubt that a one-design such as Tornado is going to be allowed to fly a kite in-class. I hope I am proven wrong...

On the other hand, boats such as cats and skiffs are very much limited in the size and power spis they carry by their stabiliby--both transverse and longitudinally. Flying a kite in place of the spi vastly increases both types of stability. Flying an OutLeader on a hot cat or skiff will be a handful, but the first guys who succeed at it are going to make the record books.

I have done so, yes. Again on land, pulling the truck. We were making 35 mph, very deep, in 25 mph of wind. VMG about 29 mph. This was not an approximate course or speed. We were gathering instrument data and "did the math" later in the evening. VMG/TW = 1.18.

Can this be replicated on water? Yes, I believe it can. Apparent wind was forward of the beam, but not way forward. The relatively high L/D of the truck was not a deciding issue, I believe.

Of course you can wait until Rob denney is in the Netherlands, but we have a Dutch distributor who can demo for you immediately. Johan Mulder; johan@kiteship.com

Dave Culp
http://www.kiteship.com