NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events

Matt,

I'm confused. Your previous posts have preached staying calm and not to overreact. Now, you're upset about a "misleading contraction"??? Dude, what's with that?

And what happened to finding out about the aforementioned sanctions to fleets or individuals who violate the new rules - per your post from last week?

Mike W.
(a fellow Hobie 17 sailor -- and contraction free)

Hi David, you wrote : "Most of us are not getting paid for this and we are giving Hobie free advertising (web sites,logos on shirts, etc.)".

Sam Evans put me in my place for asking some questions & making my opinion known, so please excuse me for not having US "local knowledge" on this subject. Seems like a lot of folks have a lot to get upset about, so it must be a big deal. The way I see it, Hobie are saying "Guys, we`d like to run our own HOBIE CLASS regattas, and won`t be hosting an open class at these events. We also don`t want the HOBIE logo associated with regattas at which ALL the boats aren`t Hobies."
The problem for some open class racers seems to be they will lose an infrastructure to piggy-back onto, in areas where there aren`t enough of them to sustain their own open class fleet & host their own regattas, and where the Hobie class is strong & is doing all the work. My suggestion here is for these poor souls to abstain from assisting in the organising or running of these events & leave all the work for Hobie sailors to do. It`s what they are asking for. And it sounds like if you sail a TheMightyHobie18, H14 or H17, you are regarded by Hobie as not being part of their family (please correct me if I`m wrong, will they allow these boats at the Hobie only regattas ?) If I`m right, the open class guys should welcome these Hobie outcasts in their fleet and get more open class sailors back on the water.
Which brings me to my next point : You don`t drive a Ford pickup with a sticker on it that says "I`d rather have a Chevy", do you ? So, STOP advertising for Hobie, when asked by outsiders what you sail, don`t say " a catamaran", say " a PRINDLE cat, or a NACRA cat, OR an INTER-20 cat", or whatever you sail. Get the H word out of the general public`s mind, stop doing their advertising for them. It`s what they`re asking you to do. It`s a real pity that one company can start this "us & them" mindset in the world of cat-sailing, rise above it all, hold open-class events & invite Hobie sailors (remember they didn`t decide on this, the Company whose only interest is MAKING MONEY out of cat-sailing did.)
And another thing : When someone hoists a H flag or banner, or even wears an 'H' T-shirt at an open event like Texel where they are exposing their logo to THOUSANDS of sailors of non-H boats at which you are on the organising committee, kindly ask them to remove it, as you would like to avoid action being taken against you by their mother company. If you only do what they ask, they will quietly dissappear into the backwaters of extinction and won`t bother anyone anymore. (And don`t get upset with ME for writing this, it`s only what I`ve understood from the letters they sent out.) I`ve been trying to break down the mindset of "us & them" where I sail, and this news hasn`t made things any easier.

Regards
Steve

OK, first Mark’s question (thanks, Dave for doing the research). It certainly appears from the attendance numbers that the Hobie MWE has not benefited terrifically from Hobie Cat Co. support. An argument could be made that it wouldn’t have existed without it. I don’t know how much support was provided to HMWE – like I said in an earlier post, I’ve been disconnected from the politics in the past couple of years. There are probably a number of factors involved in the disparity between the events, not the least of which is the competition between the two. I know that I would have to choose one over the other – I can’t do both in one year. This year, I’ve chosen the Hobie MWE because I think the competition in the 16’s will be much stiffer – and I need to train for the 16 Worlds in May.

I can’t comment on the quality of either event, because I didn’t have the opportunity to go to any of them. I did hear from people that went to SF that it had gotten too big for it’s venue (we should all have that problem!). They still had a good time.

As for budget / numbers, I can only comment about my tenure as NAHCA Sec./Treas/Chairman (’92-‘99). The income/expense statements were printed every year in the NAHCA News and were distributed to anybody that wanted them at the NAHCA AGM. They’re not secret. I still have the Quicken files on my computer – how else do you think I was able to quote detailed amounts in a previous post? I’ve never seen the financial statements from an event, though, Hobie or otherwise (except ones I’ve done myself). It would be good from an accountability standpoint. Has Nigel ever published the financials from SF?

As for Mike’s questions, I’m not “upset” about the title of the thread. I just pointed out the subtle difference to Rick. I noticed that the headline on the main page was changed almost immediately (thanks, Rick). I also know that Mary likes to “stir the pot.” It makes for impassioned posts and juicy reading. I used to do the same thing when I was the editor of the NAHCA News. Nothing wrong with trying to generate reader interest, as long as you stick to the truth and are evenhanded about it.

As for proposed sanctions, they really haven’t been seriously discussed yet. I know the NAHCA officers are still trying to deal with the immediate fallout from the bomb they dropped. I think they’ve learned a hard lesson about communication, and they’ll be a lot more input into how this whole thing will work over the next year.

Dave

I just wanted to clear up a few things in regard to CRAM and our fleets relationship with them. From day one, when I set out to rebuild Hobie Fleet 276, I worked in conjunction with CRAM. I attended their business meeting in the Fall of 2002 and stated my intentions to the club officers. I walked out of the meeting as the Hobie Fleet Captain. I let them know that we were not competing against them, rather, I was out to find Hobie sailors interested in fleet sailing...without the focus on racing. Sailing and socializing was my concept. The idea was to bring new people into sailing, or people who had left the sport back to it. My belief has always been that many folks are intimidated by the whole idea of racing and others just can't find the time to take full weeknds away from home. Single day fun sail events have a place, a niche if you will.

As a Hobie sailor from the past, I admit my loyalty to the brand. I startd the fleet in Detroit because I believe that the Hobie is plentiful on the used market, and someone could get one with a trailer for a small investment. That allows new sailors to get into the one-design side of the sport without taking a risk that they won't like it and they would be stuck with an expensive boat to sell.

The small part of our fleet that hoose to take part in racing, do participate in CRAM events. CRAM has the inferstructure for racing...with some of the best venues in the state of Michigan. I promoted the heck out of Catfight last year, and nearly a third of the 75 boats that turned out were Hobies. I understand that the prior year, there were 3 Hobies. I think that's pretty good support from my end.

It is important for people to understand that our core group, the racers within our fleet, choose to race Hobie events that take place in Division 16. This is not because we are boycotting CRAM events, nor does the HCA urge us not to attend their regattas. We just choose to race one design against some of the best competition in this country. I would rather go up against 20 - 30 experienced Hobie 16 sailors, in A and B fleets, than to race a much smaller group of boats, with less experienced racers, that I could gather for the typical weekend CRAM event.

The disparaging comments that have been made against CRAM, were based on situations in the past. I have talked about that with the other CRAM officers and its not an issue any longer. Last year was great. Many of our fleet members particpated in events other than Catfight and no one had anything bad to say about how they were treated.

We will continue to participate in CRAM events and as some of our fleet members become more comfortable with the race course, they will probably join us as well. I look forward to the coming season and I know that all the CRAM members who really know me, support my efforts. The growth of the sport that I will bring through my efforts will do nothing but grow the numbers at certain CRAM events.

Looking forward to the season!

Jeff

Matt, sorry, but Rick did NOT change the headline on the story on our home page. That's the original headline he put there. And the headline he put on his own post about all this on the forum also would meet your criteria. So I guess I am the only bad guy. At least I said "bans all non-Hobies from events" rather than "bans non-Hobies from all events." I just thought it was self-evident that if NAHCA was banning non-Hobies from events it meant NAHCA events, because what else would NAHCA have control over?

This is really silly. And somehow, I don't think I am the one stirring the pot here. That would be the people who made the decision and made the announcements. Actually, I think much of the input that has been given on this forum by many people may be helpful to both NAHCA and to the Hobie Cat Company in further developing this new policy -- or should I correctly say, "revocation of the old policy which supplanted the original policy."

So.....

Now might be a great opportunity for the forgotten 14 sailors to branch out on their own and form their own class association. Take off the "H" on the sails. Metal and comptips racing together. Sqtop mains with a 150lbs weight limit! Seems to me it's a good time for 14 sailors to consider this in the US; a class of their own with no HCA involvement!!! I know of one cat-friendly YC that would aid in an annual event(s).

IMHO.

Bob

Mary,

Sorry, I could have sworn Rick changed the headline. I'm getting old and my memory's not what it used to be.

Bob,

You mean something like this?

No matter how you dress it up, it's still a Beetle, er Hobie.

(Dolls not included)

BTW, where were all the 14's at Rehoboth?

After reading Dleonards post, it sounds to me like Hobie is organizing a "union".

Rehobeth? Oh, all metal mast 14s not allowed. NE USA is full of boats like that but not allowed to race under 'current' policy(rules). If that were to change....

I like the Beetle!!! It's still a beetle but a better one.

Bob

Let's start a Formula 14 class. Hey Wouter, want to jump in on this one???

There are so many people complaining just because they like to complain.
To all you Hobie haters out there, why do you give a [censored]?
Go your own way!

Matt

Thanks for the info on the NAHCA. I believe Nigel volunteered to host the Mid Winters East and the NAHCA said he could if it was Hobie only and I think he declined. I believe they then offered to pay Key sailing (a Hobie/Preformance Dealer) to host it.

As far as the financials from SF I don't believe it is a Nahca event and does not have members. The event is put on by Nigel and his friends that love sailing and racing.

I think you should consider coming to SF instead of MWE just because it is closer and cheaper than going to FL. for you and should have just as competive of a H16 class.

I have been a member of NAHCA since 1999(I think) and I do not remember ever seeing a Budget or a vote ballot in a NAHCA news letter.

Hobiezealot

I don't hate Hobies I have owned five of them, I just don't agree with the new NAHCA policy and that as members we don't have a say. I also believe in one design racing and think that both can be sailed at the same event. Look at Key west race week they had 3000 sailors and a lot of different classes of different brands of boats. It looked to me like there was a lot of one design racing.

I also posted my name unlike you

Hello Bob,

That's sort of what the Sea Sprays have done. These guys have weights down in the A-cat range, mylar sails, carbon blades, etc...and they are embarrassingly fast. And the costs involved are very reasonable because it's all about resurrecting old boats.

See http://home.earthlink.net/~soapysails/

Dave,
Dave,
Nicely stated.
Hey, I tried to buy a Tiger today, but your crew(mike) sold it out from under me! JK
See you at SF and hopefully sooner!

dave mosley

Zealot, You haven't listened! Many of those expressing concern, and disapproval for the HCA decision are people that LOVE Hobies and one design racing. Many have simply evolved beyond the boats being offered by Hobie. They are still very active in their fleets, and divisions. I believe I am a true Hobie Devotee. I wasn't looking to meet people to sail with when I stumbled onto a fleet funsail. I was just curious about seeing so many cats together. The people that welcomed me, and later instructed, and befriended me, are what got me hooked on The Hobie Life. But you don't have to sail a Hobie to live it! Many of those people have been fleet officers for years! Without their energy many events would not have happened! I have not raced, though I still hope to. I'm not into it for the competition. I don't see anything wrong with competing in sail boat races, in fact I really enjoy following some of my friends. I use the word friends loosely, because I don't know many of them that well,(Rick Bliss, Barry Moore, Chris and Nate T.) but I do know what I've seen of their work for the sport of cat sailing. People like Rick, Barry, John Smith, and MANY others have earned my respect, not merely by being great racers, but by what they've given to grow the sport we all love. Does anyone have the gall to begrudge Rick White for sailing a Taipan? If they do they must have gotten hold of some of the Brown Acid from Woodstock! Few if any have done more than Rick and Mary for promoting the Hobie Life, and the sport of Cat sailing! I don't agree with Rick's politics, but I will defend him and Mary anytime as far as their integrity in this sport! I only know Jake Kohl(?), and Dave Moseley from reading their posts. Niether sails Hobies now, but I know I wish I had time to meet, and sail with them! I could rant all night because I am seriuosly righteous about the cult of Cat Sailing. I am pretty righteous about Hobies too! Some of the best times of my life have been sailing on Hobie 16s. Nothing I'd rather be on in 25 to 30 mph winds, and six foot seas! Oh, and while I'm preaching, people who expect respect here, post their names. Brian McCarter, H17, Fleet 448, Div. 12

>>Let's start a Formula 14 class. Hey Wouter, want to jump in on this one???

You'll be amazed how closed we got to that one.

Maybe later,

Wouter

Dave,

Sorry, plans have already been made, plane tickets bought, etc. For me, time is the issue. I just don't have that much vacation time available from work - and my wife is already PO'ed that all my vacation time goes to sailing.

I am counting the days until I can see the ground again. Right now it's under about a foot of the white stuff.

Matt

Brian,
Zealot, and many others, doesn't understand the difference between liking H-boats and liking IHCA/NAHCA/HCA.
Many of us H-boat owners like our boats, but don't like what has happened.
Personally, I started as a Nacra sailor and moved to the H-17 because of the big fleets they had at LOCAL regattas and the people were great.
Most H-boat owners don't belong to NAHCA. Even ones that belong to local fleets and race locally.
Most H-boat owners don't go to NAs or Mid-winters, so why join NAHCA?
Most H-boat owners, that don't belong to NAHCA, don't know it exists.
Most H-boat owners, that don't belong to NAHCA, have never heard of the "H Way of Life".

Most NAHCA members don't have a clue how it is run or what it is doing.
Most NAHCA members don't know that NAHCA is under the jackboot of IHCA.

And most importantly, the IHCA and NAHCA royalty don't care what the membership and the rest of the world thinks.
SIEG HEIL, MEIN FURHER!!!

All NAHCA needs to do to destroy H-Boat racing is to bring back the points system.
Segregate us into "cans" and "can'ts".

Sam Evans, acting Commodore, H-Fleet 97

In reply to Bob:
"Let's start a Formula 14 class"

I will take a stab at it.

First as I learned in playing with my wife's wave, small boats are cheap to experiment with. Make it an experimenter's class.

Second, limit it so anybody can right one, make light skippers (women) even, and the boats still fun when the wind is 20+ kts

Third, since there are unlikely to be more than 1 or 2 in an area make the rules loose enough that they can be a real pain to the bigger boats when the wind is light or strong.

Last and most important, don't complicate it.

______________________________________________________________________________
Rules

Anyone can claim to race under "14" rule, anyone can protest them. Obvious violators subject to public humiliation

Max length (excluding rudders) 14 ft
max waterline width 8.5 ft
Max mast length TBD (22-24ft?) ft (or restrict sail luff length)
Max main sail area excluding mast 120 ft2 per ISAF
optional- max other sail area 150 ft2( will change Portsmouth number)
Sail area to be written on sail by sailmaker or measurer if sail does not conform to a one design class

wings may be used on existing boats that are narrower than 8.5 ft
max width = waterline width + 2*(8.5 -waterline width)

(since the boats will work best with light crew this next part may be worthless)
light skipper width = max width +(160x8.5/skipper weight-8.5)
any skipper caught cheating on light skipper width may exonerate themselves by sailing the next regatta with no tiller extension)

Class legal Prindle 15, Supercat 15, any aquacat, and ? can race under 14 rule. Non class legal sails must conform to max sail area

Note to rules: These rules are wbeing written to make having fun easier and to get more boats on the water. The were rules written when all boats involved are old designs or something cobbled together in a garage, if this changes the rules may have to be revised
_____________________________________________________________________________

In case you are wondering why I bothered with this?

It started when I bought some old catamaran books and discovered there used to be a lot of ~14ft catamarans, some of which looked fast. I started wondering what happened to them.

Now I am building a 14ft tunnelhull/catamaran for the Wed Night Races in Houston.

Normally I try to refrain from responding to Trolls in a forum, but your post annoyed me, Sam.

That’s basically true. With something like 120,000 boats built, NAHCA membership represents less than 1% of Hobie owners. I would wager the same percentage of Sunfish and Laser owners belong to their class associations. So what’s your point?

First part true, but there’s a lot of other reasons to be a member of the class association. Newsletter, Guest Expert Programs, standardized racing rules, youth programs, regatta support (forms, stickers SI’s, etc). There’s a lot more to the NAHCA than the high level events. If you’ve never taken advantage of the services offered, then it’s your own fault.

Unfortunately, that’s true. I’d like to change that. We had a great field trip to Chicago this past weekend that helped spread the word. Like I said in a previous post, we signed up over 100 new fleet members at the Strictly Sail Show.

If that’s true, then it’s their own damn fault for not finding out. All you have to do is go to NAHCA Homepage and everything’s there – officers, bylaws, etc. You want we should spoon-feed you this stuff? You want to make a change? Get involved – and I don’t mean spouting off in a forum.

Now that is just silly. That’s like saying US Sailing is under the jackboot of the ISAF. We’re all part of the same organization (IHCA).

Now this is where you pissed me off. The NAHCA officers are long-time active racers and go to a lot of regattas every year. They listen to what people say and make their own decisions based on what they hear. I’ve known Rich McVeigh for at least 15-20 years and you couldn’t ask for a more intelligent, considerate, knowledgeable person to head up the NAHCA. Paul Ulibarri may not be the best diplomat, but he has done more for this class in the past 35 years than you can ever imagine. You’re damn right he’s demanding and uncompromising. He also is arguably the best catamaran PRO in the world. Being at the top means that you sometimes have to make unpopular decisions.

You’ve insulted a lot of people, Mr. Evans, right down to my Jewish wife and crew.

Now take your trolling comments and go over -----------> (to the old forum)

I’m done with this thread.

I need more details. Will the clinic be available at only NAHCA sactioned events? In other words, if our regatta is listed as an offical Division race, but is an invitational (open) event, will a women's clinic still qualify for W.O.W.?

Is there a teaching script? I organized a women's clinic, women's series and championship 15 years ago in Atlanta and noticed that experienced skippers often instructed at a level that was WAY above the novices.

Cyndi Bohannon
Division VI, Fleet 8

People on this forum need to get informed about what HCA does and doesn't do. Engage brain before engaging mouth. Way to go Matt...you calculated a firing solution, returned fire and hit the target on the first shot.

Matt, I want to thank you for confirming six of my seven statements.

You forgot to mention that Guest Expert programs are few and far between and you don't have to be a NAHCA member to attend.
You don't have to be a NAHCA member to attend a "Fast & Fun".
NAHCA does not publish Racing Rules on the website, of course you have to know about it first. It publishes Sailing Instructions.
We all are required to use the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing(RRS).
"Regatta support" consists of an MS Word file, "Scoring Sheet" and SI's that we can download and print out and a contact so you can BUY course stickers.
(I was on the Race Committee at the 2003 Tiger/20 NA's and we didn't need or use ANY NAHCA materials)

What is "Silly" about it? My point in this post is that NAHCA members know very little about how NAHCA is run. Most of them naievely assume that the NORTH AMERICAN H-Cat Association is actually run by and for NORTH AMERICANS.

The "Royals" took away the voting rights of individual members several years ago.
The way Rich McVeigh was "elected" hardly inspires confidence in the system.
Class rule change proposals mysteriously appear and are approved by somebody, somewhere at their own schedule.
Look how many Tiger changes have been made and how fast they were approved.

There has been testimony from several EU sailors that major EU H-boat Championships are held at regattas with X-Boats in violation of the PU edict.
Why did the edict not include the EU? Aus? the World?
Why did it take THREE MONTHS for the two letters to get from Rich McVeigh to the members?
They intentionally waited until now in order to screw up our 2004 scheduling.

"They listen to what people say and make their own decisions based on what they hear."
EXACTLY! They talk to a small group and hand down edicts. They can base their decisions on whatever they want.

"Not the best diplomat", "demanding and uncompromising", that is a pretty good description of someone who thinks he is "royalty".
You are right about one thing, you will definitly get an argument from alot of people about who is the best PRO.

If you know anyone working the 2004 Tiger/20/17 NA's, get them to tell you why PU refused to allow the H-18's to join.

P.S. Save the "Oh I am offended" religious guilt for someone who cares.

Monsterkitty,
NAHCA has banned Open Class racing from NAHCA/Division/Fleet events.
If you allow an Open Class at your event it will not be NAHCA sanctioned.
I can't imagine NAHCA allowing W.O.W. or Guest Expert at any non-NAHCA events.

Tigerboy,
I am glad you agree with me too, but not just people on this forum.
AS I SAID, the majority of H-boat owners and NAHCA members are poorly informed.
Do you have a helpful solution or is there nothing in your brain to engage.

P.S. Anons should stay on the old forum.

You really don't get it, do you, Sam?

Tigerboy is John Bauldry. He was supporting my position, not yours - he called me last night to thank me for putting you in your place.

If you spent more time working on building Fleet 97 (Acting Commodore? What the hell is that - where you pretend to be in charge?), instead of mouthing off and displaying your ignorance in at least three different Internet forums, maybe you'd have time to fix the dead link to Fleet 97's website. (Now there's a novel concept! Actually doing something for your fleet!)

I've been sailing and racing Hobies for 31 years. I grew up in Division 9 and sailed at venues from the Chesapeake down to Wrightsville Beach. I went to college in Division 10, lived in Division 12 for three years, then moved back to Division 10 where I've been since 1985. I've been involved with the Hobie Class Association for 20+ years. I've built friendships all over the world because of Hobie Class Racing. I consider it one the greatest positive influences on my life.

What have you done, Sam? Zip, Nada, Zilch as far as I can tell. Unless you count spreading uninformed, viscious commentary. Please sell your 17 and go back to your precious Nacra. I'm ashamed to sail in the same class as you.

Now, like I said, I'm done with this thread.

Post deleted by Mary

and his posts, he makes good points and the NAHCA would do itself a disservice to ignore them. I think you know if you continue down the path you are on you will alienate a large porting of your membership. If this is your goal, then more power to you.

Regards,
David Ingram

Sorry, Mary. I let him punch my buttons, and unfortunately, I couldn't resist the temptation to roll in the mud with him.

My apologies to anyone who takes offense at my comments.

Feel free to delete my last post.

Matt,
You are free to edit or delete your own post for up to six hours after you place it. If I were you, I would just remove that "final thought." It was one thought too many, and we have all been guilty of that at one time or another.

Done. At least I have the courtesy to acknowledge when I've stepped over the line, apologize and take advantage of the opportunity to correct my indiscretion.

My wife, who has Holocaust surviors in her family, took great offense at Sam's equating NAHCA "Royalty" with Hilter. That's not funny.

Okay, just so everyone knows what is going on, Matt said something that he regretted. I posted a response. He then removed his statement. And I then removed my response.

And Matt is right about Sam being out of line with his Hitler analogy. I should have chastised him, too.