NAHCA bans all non-Hobies from events

Dave:
Excellent Data! I wonder how a poor Hobie sailor feels when he drives all that way to MidWinters and there are no boats to race one design against. Interesting in the Hobie 18 class only one showed in 2003! Bet that guy will be at Spring Fever this year instead, so he can have some real one design racing instead.
Cary Palmer
www.seacats.org

PU that stinks, and I don't even own a Hobie. But I might buy an old wooden A cat!

Glad to see that after I join NAMSA I will have a vote for officers and things.
Here I come NAMSA.
Nevermore,
Edgar

Seems that IHCA will make it less financially feasible for clubs in the mid-Atlantic area to put on regattas since 20% or more of turnout was in X-class. What's the possibility that a Hobie Fleet putting on a points regatta would just run another regatta simultaneously and on the same racecourse, say Gunpowder 1 and Gunpowder 1X? Seems a good way to fight a stupid ruling to me.

-Greg

is going to get you on PU's list buddy!

Dave

Already one of the plans, Already one of the plans.
Meets Hobie requirements, still allows a place for those Hobies to race who don't have enough numbers to have a legitimate 5 Boat class.

so Micheal... where are you going to race those A-cats? I want to check it out.

As for the rest of this stuff...can't we all just get along? I came here to read about racing, and I get 25 freaking pages of politics and whiners. Non-supporters of the Hobie decision should look at the best anology I have seen... if you want to race at a Laser Regatta, you don't show up with an I-20. End of discussion. If your I-20 can be raced somewhere else, then go race it and stop complaining. I'll do the same with my Tiger, and hopefully everyone will be having fun. If you can show me a better overall racing circiut (one design) that I can participate in, then I might be there too. Hobie simply offers the best overall package in my geographical area, and it appears that they are geuinely trying to make it better. Most serious racers will agree that the purest form of the sport is ONE DESIGN racing, so how can we hold an organization to task for enforcing that concept? The dilution of people and competitors in this sport is sad and frustrating, but like everything else in life it will evolve and shake out to be just fine in the end. So lets get back to where we CAN race, and stop whining about where we can't. Where are the West Coast F18s? Anyone want to go racing?

jim

For as long as I have been racing catamarans, Hobie has had a policy of actively driving a wedge between Hobies and other multihulls. It is not about one design racing, it is one brand racing. Sure there are some one-design fleets, but there are enough orphan Hobies to make up an open fleet at many of their regattas. A lone H14 Turbo, H21, TheMightyHobie18 FX or other oddball Hobie is more than welcome at any Hobie regatta. So stop insulting our intelligence with this one-design stuff. Hobie is and always has been about one brand racing.

From reading many of the posts on this thread & on other related threads, it appears that a lot of Hobie sailors have no idea of how Hobie Inc (NAHCA, IHCA & Hobie Cat Company) has treated the rest of the multihull community (x-boats in Hobie-speak) over the years. To provide some insight, the following are my experiences with Hobie Inc. as a one design x-boater for 25 years.

My first multihull experience was crewing on a Hobie 18 in 1977. We raced almost every weekend with the Ford Lake Sail Club. At that time the club consisted of a Hobie 16 fleet, a fleet of miscellaneous monohulls that raced in a Portsmouth fleet & us, a lone Hobie 18. The Hobie 16’s welcomed their brother Hobie with open arms. In addition to their usual fleet scoring, they scored an overall multihull winner using Portsmouth handicapping.

In 1978, I purchased a NACRA 5.2 because it had the same Portsmouth number as the Hobie 18 and my girlfriend & I were too light for the Hobie 18. The plan was we would race head to head with my buddy on his Hobie 18. First across the line wins! Neither of us had yet raced one-design. When I showed up at the first Ford Lake regatta in the Spring of 1978 with my brand new NACRA 5.2 looking to race head to head with the Hobie 18 (he was still the only one) I was told to leave. I was told that it was a Hobie only club. I pointed to the monohulls and said that there were several brands of boat racing in the Portsmouth fleet & asked why multihulls were any different. I don’t recall what if any logic they provided in response. I do recall being booted our of there.

Fortunately for my racing, I found CRAM. At the time CRAM was one half to three quarters Hobie. At various regattas CRAM also had one design fleets of Tornadoes, Sharks, Sol Cats, NACRA 5.2’s, Prindle 16’s and A-Boats. It also had a fleet of Portsmouth boats which was and is till this day the fleet of last resort for boats that don’t have enough entries to qualify as a fleet. My friend with his Hobie 18 & I both discovered the joys of one-design racing with CRAM.

When we started sailing with them, there was a Hobie Fleet under the umbrella of CRAM. That CRAM Hobie Fleet hosted two points regattas a year for several years. Those points regattas also had several one-design fleets of "x-boat" classes. In the early to mid 80’s, our friends at Division 10 kept adding to the list of requirements for us to host a points regatta. They told us that NAHCA (or whatever it was called at the time) was tightening up the points regatta criteria and they were passing them through. It became more and more difficult to comply with their demands. When we were not able to comply with their demands, they took away our points regattas. That was the beginning of the end of the Hobie fleets within CRAM.

Today, the serious Hobie racers in Southeast Michigan head to New York State to race with the Rocheseter & Syracuse Hobie fleets. That is an additional 2 to 4 hours of driving time over what it would take to come to a CRAM regatta. If not for the Hobie policy, I am sure that we would still have active viable Hobie fleets in Michigan.

Tom Liston
NACRA F-18 #79

Good comments Tom .

The H only race edict is in direct conflict with the Formula 18 concept that encourages all to race including the H-Tiger F-18 , imported from H Europe by Hobie US, built specifically as a Formula 18 .
Hobie builds and develops a Formula 18 ,--expects the benifits of the Formula concept of inclusion of all,--then announces a H-only policy ? -
The conflict and lack or reciprication of intent that desires to segment a SPORT to favor a particular brand and its parent companies profit and or a false perception of brand class only racing as being somehow superior ?,Why then build or import a Formula 18 -.?

The answer for most catamaran racing sailors are Formula and development classes like A s and race groups based on design measurement that include all brand types categorized by L B W AND SAIL AREA ,--not brand class , NOT H only.

The expansion of Formula racing and formula design measurement race groups should be what the majority of racing sailors gravitate towards and is the best solution for all involved , especially H and H sailors which are now nearly non existant geographically in the mid west region .

Carl

It's time to wish Hobie sailors all the best, bon voyage and welcome!

It's just economics. Because we can't sail in their regattas doesn't mean they can't sail in ours.

For the locals running a regatta, Hobie money spends just like everyone else's!

Did you actually read any of this thread? I don't remember a Hobie Hater among them. Most of us love Hobie Cats. We just don't like some damn selfish politicoeconomically motivated segregationist policy that messes with the regrowth of the local racing fleets. Hobie had little to do with the resurgence of the Multihull fleets at the local level. That comes from one source, a bunch of hardworking catamaran sailors who may sail ANY brand of Catamaran, give freely of their time and resources to promote the love of the sport. If the so-called Brand X sailors were to exclude the Hobies like HobieCatAmerica are proposing to do to us, then they'd have no place to sail their HobieCats in an organized event.
Hobie needs to reconsider this policy, it was dumb in the first place, and sometimes you have to just admit you made a mistake and move on.
Cary Palmer, Hobie Lover
Hobie Fleet 141

Tiger.....

I was not complaining...just showing the original letter. I am very happy with the new A schedule, and as far as Im concerned...come one, come all!!!

Its about sailing with friends, with good competition, and exchanging ideas....

See ya on the water....

Michael

Agree with Zuhl..... no Hobie Haters, just wonderers.
But you know, this may be the best thing after all. We have leaned on NAHCA's organization and maybe its time we have our own cat national organization that is not factory orientated, rather cat and sailor orientated.
Nevermore
Edgar

You may be the smartest one of us all Edgar.
Maybe it's time to just take our numbers and move on.
Will be the best thing for us all.

I'm not a Hobie hater. But I was about to buy a second boat (a Wave) until this. Now I'm looking for any other option. I will not even buy a used Hobie because of this marketing strategy.

With car sales a little slow, web surfing beats cold calling!
Anyways, after reading thru all these opinions, I think it would be interesting to hear from the fleets, that will be open to all sailors? Maybe it would be smarter if they contacted Mary, this might be an interesting article. (I sure M. Miller From the Hobie Cat Co. is watching )

I’ll tell you how it looks from the North American Hobie Class. It looks like we are going to have a growth year in 2004, not by a lot but growth all the same. The fact that many of the sailors racing in other classes have not joined this year makes the news all the more encouraging.
Have a Hobie Day,
Bob

Division 9 has chosen to run the regattas the way we want and to invite all sailors this year. We will see what the HCA does for next year.If the policy does not change I think we will be taking the word Hobie off our flyers.

The Tiger class is being run as F 18 at all our regattas.

David Lennard

Bob,

What information are you using to quantify the positive growth of NAHCA next year?

Or are you doing some creative counting?

There were several HCA membership-building events this year, not the least of which was a successful Worlds here in North America. How many people do you know, in ALL multihull classes, that join their class association just before nationals and when they have to do so in order to compete. Wouldn't surprise me if there were a lot of renewing members that hadn't been on the books in a while. The same thing happens even at Alter Cup.

Increased membership is a good thing - it gives the national organizations what they need to implement the will of the members, including education and other important programs. Don't wait - join early, join often. We're all eligible for membership in more than just one sailing organization. Plus, if you're a member, you get a role in steering the organization.

I'll climb down, now.

You da' man. Well said.

Tracie

I AGREE WITH THE GET ON THE BANDWAGON APPROACH TO A NATIONAL EVENT!

It only serves to inflate numbers. And, we are talking about H16s/Tigers right? The only reason I stay a member is I support multihull sailing, not by particular brand.
BC

side tracked, I know of the major clubs like CRAM, OCRA, & CRAW. But was wondering which fleets will remain open?
Ted

I think it should be up to the Hobie fleets, when they publish their 2005 schedules, to indicate what events are "Open" and what events are "Hobie only."

At this point probably a lot of them do not yet know what they are going to do next year when the new policy goes into effect. It's kind of early to ask that question.

I know some are waiting to see if the policy is going to stand or be rescinded.

It would be nice if a vote could be taken of the HCA membership to see what the majority of the sailors and the fleets would prefer, but apparently that is not an option.

As a person new to sailing a Cat ( Nacra 5.2) I have been reading all of this and am fairly astounded at some of the attitudes and concepts presented in these answers. Down here at Dixie Sailing Club we are having to work our butts off to get folks to come to regattas, no matter what the boat is, monohull or Cat. With a hobby/sport that seems to need all the entrants that it can get, we work hard to get more to come, not tell folks you can't race because of the type of cat you have, or try to divide it up into so small of fleets there is no real racing to be done.

Here is an open comment to any and all types of cat sailors - if you are ever in Alabama and want to come racing at Dixie Sailing Club, you are welcome, no matter what kind of cat you have. We race every weekend from March thru mid December, and every race is free to visitors. If you are worried about not having good enough competition, every week we have the Catalina 22 Gold Fleet National Champion from last year, and this years #2, and 3 other Gold Fleet national level racers. We cat folks don't care what you sail, just so long as we can give those C22 guys a little work. Know that you are welcome to join us, regardless of what type cat you have. You want any more info, feel free to drop me an e-mail.

Dick

I have little to NO say in US Sailing.

We all know how much say the HCA allows

I join because we have to! Other than the D-PN data and the rule book US Sailing really doesn't do anything for me. As for education... who is being educated and what is being taught? What impact is US Sailing making at the regional level beyond insureance?

I'm all for joining an orgaization, but give me a say and make an impact that directly benefits me.

Granted I'm a bit of an anarchiest and I don't believe in organization for the sake of organization. But show me a tangable benefit that is at the regional level and I'll beat the drum louder than anyone.

Ding

Hey Dave -

It's partially my fault if you think you don't have a say in what happens within US SAILING and particularly on the Multihull Council. This post is long-winded, but stick with me for a minute.

As a US SAILING member, you are automatically an associate member of the Council and are welcome and encouraged (begged, really) to attend any of the meetings. As a representative of the Performance Class Association, since you’re an I-20 owner, you can vote at those meetings. Your expenses for attending the meetings are tax deductible - you get the documentation you need for your tax return in your registration pack. Some examples of the sorts of things discussed and decided at the meetings can be seen at http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/reports.htm.

One of the biggest tasks the Council has is administering the ladder events that lead to the Championship and the Championship itself. Your participation in the Area Eliminations the last couple of years is what makes the Multihull Championship possible. I know that you aren't always able to travel to the qualifier, but we try to move the venue from year to year - this year it's in Melbourne in November (see http://www.ussailing.org/alter/alter05/elims0405.htm).

Tangible benefits at the regional level? People you know, and maybe you sometimes, compete in the ladder event to qualify for the Championship. People you know, and maybe you sometimes, go to the Championship. There are other US SAILING championships that you are eligible to compete for as well, assuming you could bring yourself to get on a dinghy or day sailor… Alex and Rick are Area D multihull sailors that have gone to the Championship of Champions.

When you qualified for the Alter Cup in Clearwater, US SAILING paid the charter fee on the boats used, saving you $500. Each year, the venue and boat to be selected for the Championship are discussed at length. Say, for example, you had an issue with CCSC or with Bimare, who was supplying the boats. As a member of the Council, you could have come to the meetings in Marina del Rey or Cincinnati and made your case. Can't make the meeting? Tell your Area Representative (that's me) what's eating you, and it's my job to take it to the table. I get e-mails and phone calls all the time, 90% of which are about Portsmouth numbers. Some of the calls aren't related to ratings - for example, the ARC 22 guys wanted to be able to compete in the Eliminations, but the rules stipulated "under 22-feet." The rule got changed. People in the Carolinas and Georgia complained that they couldn’t make the Eliminations. Area D got split.

That's all just related to multihulls specifically. Make a meeting and wander the halls a bit - as a member, you get to sit in for just about anything that's going on – choosing off the published agenda can be tough. Don't like one of the rules? Sit in with the rules committee. Safety equipment on offshore races bugging you? There's a group working on that, too. Seriously - one voice makes a difference within an organization of volunteers. I've been making the meetings since 2000 and I'm convinced that cat sailors could take over US SAILING if we just showed up. The meetings are scheduled pretty far in advance - http://www.ussailing.org/events/meet04fall/index.htm.

Education? You got it - it's a link right on the home page. Hit http://www.ussailing.org/training/ and take your pick - instructor training, judge and race officer classes and certification, now even power boat classes for people who use their power boats for race committee and coaching. You get free or discounted training, classes and merchandise – I know CCSC offers US SAILING courses. Need some shake-n-bake SIs or course diagrams? Got ‘em. Need a judge or a PRO? No sweat, where do you live? You get discounts on all regattas put on by clubs or organizations that are insured by US SAILING. In addition, you can insure your boat, your club, or your regatta for less.

There are lots of youth programs, too - I wish there were already a multihull-oriented youth program, but that might change now that there will be a multihull division at the ISAF worlds from now on... that happened as a result of volunteers who wanted to see a change. Harry and Tommy just finished up at the Youth Worlds in Poland - your annual dues helped send them there, and it's the first time for multihulls. When you see them in St. Augustine, let them tell you if it was an amazing experience, even if they did stink it up. Your dues send the Olympic team to Athens, too. And guess what – you get a say in how your dues get spent! I know it sounds incredible, but it’s true. All it takes is making the meetings or asking your Rep (again, me) to do it for you.

Let’s talk about it some more in St. Augustine – I don’t want anybody in my Area feeling like they pay their money and don’t get anything for it. Sure, a big box of goodies doesn’t magically show up on your doorstep, but your dues get you a lot if you’ll take advantage.

The problem seems to be to this newbie with open minded eyes is simple, MONEY. Hobie supports the racing circuit with financing at the national and international level with raffle prizes and maybe insurance at the local level, not to mention the support of the local dealers for regattas. Hobie wants to recoup that money as well as maybe become a monopoly along the way which any good capitalistic company does. As a consumer, we want competition. So maybe the problem isn’t Hobie. Maybe the problem is Performance Cats or the other manufacturers. Where is their support? Why isn’t their racing circuit much stronger? I’m new to all of this, but I haven’t seen much from Hobie’s competitors. As I understand it, even when there is an open event, the overwhelming majority of boats are Hobies. As I see it there are 2 ways to go.

1. Go entirely Hobie and say goodbye to competitive manufacturing. This is not necessarily negative. There simply may not be enough of a marketplace to support more than 1 manufacturer in the field of beach cat racing in today’s world.

Or

2. Organize completely independent from the manufacturers. NASCAR races with the support of all major car manufacturers without excluding any. For large boat regattas they are often supported by several manufacturers. My guess is that Hobie US and the local dealers will continue to support the regattas without the moniker HOBIE on the NOR, albeit maybe not as strongly, but this would also open the door to the other manufacturers to fill the gap. As far as I can tell, most regattas would survive without the Hobie name and the loss of their points which don’t really seem to matter too much anyways. With a strong national combined circuit, points would matter. This would make the strong racing enthusiast happy and still provide the openness that fosters growth in the sport. Exclusivity never grew anything but resentment. Yes, I know there already are some independent organizations, but they certainly don’t compare to the strength of the Hobie racing circuit. Maybe this is the time for those independents to soak up the fleets that Hobie is willing to lose to create this strong circuit. A strong independent circuit would put the consumer back in a position of power forcing the manufacturers to compete to be a part of the circuit and not in the position of handing down edicts from above.

I don’t mean to sound like a Hobie heretic. I am a proud new Tiger owner and have an appreciation for the original inventor of a product, but I also would like to see competition from manufacturers to keep costs down and see continued refinements in the boats which is of course against the idea of single class racing which really isn’t single class racing because the boats change a little each year but are still single class... ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH!!!. Do any of you old time racers know how ridiculous some of this stuff seems to a new person? Why can’t we just get the fastest boats racing on the water? Am I the only one who wants to race on a carbon fiber boat like Lance Armstrong’s BICYCLE? I don’t want to hear about how single class racing makes the best racing because the boats are the same. Bullogna! The best racers buy new sails every year at a cost of $3000 for a Tiger and upgrade to new boats every other year. That’s not the same as competing with a person with a 5 year old boat with 5 year old sails!?! I guess I’m just going to just drink a couple shots, try to clear my head, and try to remember I just got into racing to become a better sailor anyways.

Sorry, just the ramblings of a newbie.

What the @#%& does ’t mean?