Quote from Macca:
The F17 that won the 104 nationals in France just a few weeks ago was weighed by the FFV (French national ferderation) and it was 159kg.
Quote from the Spitfire site:
The first national formula 1.04 challenge took place in Lorrient Brittany at the weekend. Five maufacturers Nacra, Hobie, Cirrus, Mattia and Swell Spitfire were represented. Thirty teams took part. Spitfires took the top two positions with five boats in the top ten.
How many
Nationals
were there ?
Post deleted by Darryn
The F16 forum
police
are quite active at shutting down discussion they don't like, it seems.
Only one nationals as far as I know...
Results are here: http:/
F17 won 5 of the 6 races.
28 entries so it was a proper event too, unlike some other intergalactic tournaments <img src=
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Results are here: http:/
F17 won 5 of the 6 races.
28 entries so it was a proper event too, unlike some other intergalactic tournaments <img src=
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Freddy was sailing a Spitfire the last time I saw him - I wonder when he changed to a F17 <img src=
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Got smart I guess <img src=
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The French dealer loaned them a boat for the event and they didn't want to give it back!
phile [censored] stirring again?.. What was asked is for F17 chat to go to the F17 or general forums...
What happened in the F16 forum is typical of the group... If the discussion isn't pro F16 then they shut it down.
So now thay are left with the exciting stuff like:
What colour battens match my eyes?
What colour battens match my eyes?
I always thought blue battens were best for me, with black close behind. <img src=
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But we all know that red ones are fastest, and I've got the scientific proof to back it up
BULL....
There is an F17 forum.. Which is the appropriate forum for F17/F104 discussions..
Can you please send through. I would be interested to read, otherwise it's all hearsay.
**** all yuou want”
“Is this the normal way of most discussion.
One of the founders of the F16 class defining it.
People with close links to other manufactures attacking it.
If you do not like the class, why not keep posting on a f16 forum.
There must be forums for the f104,f18,and tornado somewhere.”
“John,
I was not attacking the class in any way.
I was simply pointing out a gross error on Wouters part. He made a claim that was patently untrue and now he refuses to proove his claim even though I have asked several times now.
The internet is a funny place, anyone can make claims about anything but when they are asked to show proof they go quiet on the issue... Kind of shows what kind of people they are doesn't it.”
“The appropriate places for the different topics in this thread is..
Open forum: http:/
F18 forum: http:/
F17 forum: http:/
That is, if you really want to discuss like this.”
Thread locked.
Ozcat,
I see you are leaving some parts out in your list of quotations.
For anybody who wants to read the full thread go to :
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...
It is still there on the F16 forum.
Wouter
I think the important parts of the thread are copied above.
Now its about time Wouter posted the measurement certificate of the 135kg F17.
But if he can't find it I understand, just another example of Wouter making claims that are patently untrue.
The conversation went downhill when Wouter had a dig at the F17, whilst praising the F16 class and it’s superiority to other classes.
The only difference between it and the F16 now is the mast length (+0.5 mtr), hull length (+0.20 mtr) and the weight (+25 kg). In itself these differences are quite small overall and hence the handicap is only a few points slower then the F16.
Actually I was only saying how the newest version of the Nacra 17 design; the EU variant of the F17 which is different from the US F17 variant, is closely resembling the F16 specs.
But I have to correct one error on my side. The F17 hulls are 0.25 mtr (=10 inches) longer instead of only 0.20 mtr (=8 inches).
However what is more interesting is the almost panick like reaction to my claim that several Nacra 17's were measured to be around 135 kg when fully rigged. In itself an attractive spec. The opposition seems to strongly favour the number 159 kg. I honestly couldn't figure out why this is.
That is till I checked up on the measurement of the EU F17 version at the F104 webblog. The specs were there given as :
source : http:/
Weight ready to sail : 159 kg
length : 5.25 mtr.
width : 2.5 mtr.
Mainsail area : 15.34 sq. mtr.
Luff length : 8.69 mtr.
Jib area : 3.75 mtr.
Jib Luff : 5.34 mtr.
Spi area : 18.98 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard area : 0.16 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard luff : 0.8 mtr
SCHRS rating : 1.035 (= F104)
However when I punch in a weight of 158.7 kg, 300 grams (2/3rd of lbs) lighter then the acclaimed 159 kg then the rating drops below 1.035 and the F17 EU version is no longer a F104 !
That would allow any F104 result by the F17 EU version to be protested and disqualified. Punch in the 135 kg and the rating ends up at SCHRS = 1.009
Note how the F16 SCHRS rating = 1.008 and the F16 has the following specs :
Weight ready to sail : 107 kg (measurements of 2007/2008 boats show 105 - 112 kg)
length : 5.00 mtr.
width : 2.5 mtr.
Mainsail area : 15.00 sq. mtr.
Luff length : 8.10 mtr.
Jib area : 3.70 mtr.
Jib Luff : 5.45 mtr.
Spi area : 17.50 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard area : 0.16 sq. mtr.
Daggerboard luff : 0.75 mtr
SCHRS rating : 1.008 (= NOT F104)
Note how the previous (7) versions of the Nacra 17's have moved through the specs :
Mainsail area : 13.68 sq. mtr -> 16.44 sq. mtr. -> 15.34 sq. mtr. .... = now 102% of F16
Jib area : 3.40 sq. mtr -> 3.75 sq. mtr. .... = now 101 % of F16
Jib luff : 5.00 mtr -> 5.35 mtr .... = now 97% of F16
Daggerboard area : 0.199 sq. mtr -> 0.16 sq. mtr .... = now 100% of F16
Daggerboard depth : 0.982 mtr -> 0.80 .... = now on average 103% of F16
(All less then 3% differences)
And notice the path taken by the naming : Inter 17 -> Inter 17R -> Nacra 17 -> Nacra F17 -> F17
The only differing specs remaining are.
Hull length : 0.25 mtr => 105% of F16
Mainsail luff : 0.59 mtr => 107% of F16
Mast length : 0.55 mtr => 106% of F16
Spi are : 1.5 sq. mtr. => 109% of F16
(all less then 10% differences)
and
Weight : Claimed by Nacra 52 kg => 149 % of F16
Weight : Claimed by Wouter 25-30 kg => on average 126% of F16
Anybody else noticing the similarities ? And the exceptional offset of the ready to sail weight compared to all the other specs ? I distinctly remember being rediculed on this very forum back in 2002/2003 when I claimed the I-17 boards were to large and too long for a singlehanded boat. Turns out the designers have come to agree with me as they have reduced the nacra 17 boards in area by 25% and in length by 20% to arrive at almost smack identical dimensions as the average F16 board !
Coming from the US Inter-17R design where the differences to the F16's were typically in the range of 10%-30% depending on the spec analysed we have converged to a situation where all the specs except weight are less then 10% with 5 out of 9 items are different by 3% or less !
I call that convergence. And since the F16 class has remained the same in its specs since 2003 (when 14.85 sq. mtr mainsail area was rounded off to 15.00 sq. mtr) it must be that the Nacra 17 design is converging to the F16 specs and I don't think that coincidence can be blamed for that.
Actually I never claimed superiority of the F16 class per se, I only claimed (and have done so for many years) that the F16 class is reflecting an optimal point in catamaran design that is hard to beat; hence the equality in performance between it and the F18 class and the fact that F18's shame so many ultimate all-carbon design in regatta's. Of course this situation is determined by a given set of a few basic design choices. One of which is the 1-up/2-up versatility, this limits the amount of mainsail area and board area as these need to be such that the boat still works well for a singlehanded crew. Another is the choice to have the boat trailer horizontally within a world wide legal limit (2.5 mtr). It seems that the evolution of the Nacra 17 design is finding the same optimal point (of specs).
Personally I think this to be great. Mostly because the Nacra 17's that are around 135 kg (and have SCHRS = 1.009) can now level race F18's (SCHRS = 1.005) and F16's (SCHRS = 1.008); first over the line wins.
Maybe we should forget about this F104 class and form a F101 (= Level F18 ) class instead ?
And I must admit that I find the new EU version of the F17 specs (except the overall acclaimed weight) alot more attractive from a sailors perspective. I'm convinced this variant will behave very well as it appears the balance between the specs is better then before. Especially for a solo sailor.
Wouter
This thread was hijacked earlier and were discussing battens and the respective fast colours!
Please continue in that direction. There is no reason why a thread can have only one single tangent.
Wouter
So Wouter,
In your extreeeemly long and wandering post above you are basically saying that the F17 is designed and optimised for the 104 rule. and that is correct. The boat is a very potent 104 machine and the results show that an optimised boat for a rating is a winning boat.
Much the same as it would be for a F16 that is heavy to be re rated based on its weight and therfore getting a better handicap.
Simple hey? The rules are published and people can optimise to the rule but still have freedom to change paramaters that suit them as long as they fit the rule.
Oh, and please dont try to claim that F16 had anything at all to do with the optimisation of the F17. 104 was the goal from the outset and the results have proven that its been worthwhile.
So how about you post that measurement certificate for the 135kg F17?
can we have a
Formula Macca and Wouter
forum started?
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The French dealer loaned them a boat for the event and they didn't want to give it back!
Another Fairy Tale <img src=
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Frederic Leger was sailing a standard Spitfire at that event. Chris Sproat, who was in 2nd place has just confirmed that. So Spitfires were 1st and 2nd, with 5 in the top 10. Maybe it was a Spitfire that weighed 135k <img src=
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What type of cat was this imaginary F17 anyway? Nacra F17 or is there something else out there? <img src=
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Seems like the biggest 'spin' being put out by Nacra has nothing to do with the asymmetric variety!!! <img src=
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Hi John, Peter Emmerson was asking for you last night - I told him that you were very quiet recently <img src=
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The Nacra Europe website says 151k for 1 up and 156k for sloop. Does that mean that it's not a 1.04 at all <img src=
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well maybe the Spitfire is really a F17 or the F17 is a Spitfire in camouflage..
Maybe macca has been hanging out in the dutch coffeeshops too much <img src=
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No Coffee shops for me <img src=
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Who is in this photo then??
Also article here: scroll down page for F17 news item.:-
http:/
Wondered why Macca had a bad day coming only 27th but I guess the
Dutch black thick coffee
maybe an explanation.
Question slightly off thread but has a reasoning, how many professional sailing teams ( including out of work or in between contracts ) were there at Texel and how many of the top places were taken by the hired jockies. <img src=
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macca,
It is bad enough we have to listen to wouter, but now your dribble too.
What is a F17, where are the rules and what builder could I buy 1 from besides nacra. There are at least 4 versions here in the US, rumor has it there is another rig and sail combo in testing and now you have an
optimised
1 for the 104.
What is the 104 rule? Sounds like a group of builders trying to find a market for their boats that did not sell so well. Is there a defined rule set somewhere? We have some hopped up 14s racing against some fat 20s now in our fleet, must be we are 104 already and did not know it.
The point is, who gives a F$%#? If anyone is going out of their way to promote more multihull racing and opportunites to grow the sport, more power to them. You however, should stick to pulling strings and let the marketing guys promote things.