Hate the game...
Please allow me to ask this. Being new to the game, I can understand your desire for purist in the N20 pursuit, and make it a level playing field. I sailed this weekend with a bunch of top notch sailors and they smoked me at every race. They could beat me with a 14 Hobie, but I still had a good time. I know in time I'll get better. They'll beat me time after time, but I'll keep trying. If we allow a set or given design of sail by different lofts to be used, what is wrong with making the boats more competitive. I mean, who will want to buy a N20 in a couple of years when it's so slow a F16 can out run it. I'm just asking.
Thanks
Forrest N20
I don't know where to start with this one.
new to the game
? If you're referring to me, I've been a N20 owner since 2007, and sailor since 2005. I don't think that qualifies as
new to the game
.
Anyone who looks at my record can tell that I'm not interested in winning. I'm not even interested in finishing top half of the fleet. I do want to compete against who I feel are sailors on equal level as me within the fleet.
What I don't want is to sail an open or formula class because some owners just up and decided that it was ok to change the rules. Thats not what I signed up for when I bought the boat, and its not whats going to cause more people to join the class. Go look at the Nacra 6.0 and what they did. Same song, different singer.
As for why would people buy boats that get beat by F16s... I'd imagine that a ton of H16 sailors would take umbrage with that statement. I didn't buy my boat because it was the fastest boat amongst all the choices available. I bought it because it was what I felt was the best boat to do the race that I loved at the time (and the price was pretty damn good).
So the whole goal of changing the rules so people all of a sudden start buying N20's isn't going to work. How is a boat that is split between two classes going to draw in more sailors?
Gee, I can sail in a 2 boat one design fleet or a 3 boat open sails fleet. This sounds ... awesome.
*rolls eyes*
Whatever - I think its fairly clear what I think on the matter. Once again, this isn't helping me get off the hump and put the boat in the water. In fact, it makes me rather sick to look at my boat and think of this whole situation.
Hate the game...
At first glance, i thought the panda was
mounting
a yellow marshmallow peeps
Alright that is enough. Stop saying the rule change is keeping you off the water. That's not what is keeping you off the water and you know it. In fact you got well pissed off at me about 16 months ago becuase Thart and I were busting your balls about not sailing which predates this rule change by almost a year. The fact that your boat stays in the driveway has absolutely NOTHING to do with the O20 concept. You chose not to sail for reasons that are uniquely your own my friend.
Unless you're willing to lead the charge back into the OD camp, let these people be. The dark cloud that is you is bringing me down, damn... I thought Mark was negative.
It's WAY (I mean like way way WAY) under the weight in this new O/F20 rule. Also, we'd have to put a jib on it. Still not sure why that is a requirement. If they left it open with only a 50m^2 limit, why not make it open to sloop or uni as well?
Mike, the CFR is a lot lighter than the N20c, with a taller mast and 8.5' beam. It can be controlled <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" /> Put those beams on, it would be interesting to see how it does. I think the biggest problem would be that it's over the 50m^2 limit.
Unless you're willing to lead the charge back into the OD camp, let these people be. The dark cloud that is you is bringing me down, damn... I thought Mark was negative.
You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.
Tad, Maybe the feeling you have when you look at your boat is just that you've realized it may be time for a different boat. I can relate to that.
Unless you're willing to lead the charge back into the OD camp, let these people be. The dark cloud that is you is bringing me down, damn... I thought Mark was negative.
Love you too sunshine! I have been enjoying the show... Carry on!
(There is nothing that PHRF/Portsmouth or SCHRS doesn't solve here!)
Tad,
Forgive me, I certainly wasn't speaking of you
as new to the game.
I was speaking strickly of myself. As I am new, and simply asking for your reasoning and reason for your position in this matter. I concur with you that I didn't purchase mine to be constantly up grading, but we can't stay stagnant as to advancements.
Forrest N20
Group,
Please allow me to ask these questions, forgive me in advance if this has been discussed or off base.
Why not have a open 20 class and stock or modified stock class, or whatever you choose to call it?
open would be the carbon and 10'
beam boats or M20s
modified 20's would be a stock boat with limited modifications made and allowed only every 3-5 years
This is my question, if a modification is evident in and for a stock 20, only allow it every 3-5 years depending on what the class decides. Allow the members of the class decide what modifications would be allowed in the class by vote. They would control what would be acceptable, and what wouldn't. You could have either one major change and or two minor changes.
This is my thought...some of us 20 owners can't afford to buy new boats to keep up with changes as in the F18 class. Clearly they are making jumps leaps and bounds. Why not limit the changes into major changes, and minor changes. A major change would be sail and or mast change, A minor change would be changes of blocks, or sheets, castings. By keeping the amount and expense down, it allows slow and gradual changes within the fleet, without folks waking up and being suddenly outdated.
I concur and agree with Tad, but also believe that we need to change but in a majority mutually agreed upon direction.
Clearly manufactures aren't concerned about the fleet, as new 20' class boats are being produced. The class needs to dictate the rules and not the other way around.
Thanks for the time to inquire.
Forrest N20
(There is nothing that PHRF/Portsmouth or SCHRS doesn't solve here!)
Okay that one made me laugh out loud. You're being so quite I just had to give you a jab to make sure you were paying attention.
You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.
Don't be hatin, there is nothing sexier than a 50 year old fat man getting into his tights in the boat park. That's right ladies I'm doin it all for you. I can't count the number of times I've caught Beth trying to sneak a peak!
I never said that. I said that its not exactly making me get over the current lack of motivation to sail that I've had lately.
Maybe if I wore spandex I wouldn't get butt chafe-age as bad as I do.
Amazingly I agree with Mark here.
If you want to sail your N20 with aftermarket sails - to the Open handicap fleet with you!
Don't try and redefine the class because you feel butt hurt at getting beat by F18's and F16's.
I got over that a long time ago.
Unless you're willing to lead the charge back into the OD camp, let these people be. The dark cloud that is you is bringing me down, damn... I thought Mark was negative.
You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.
Tad, Maybe the feeling you have when you look at your boat is just that you've realized it may be time for a different boat. I can relate to that.
Look at the boat, realize it's time for a different one, and can't figure out how to get there. I've definitely been there.
You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.
Don't be hatin, there is nothing sexier than a 50 year old fat man getting into his tights in the boat park. That's right ladies I'm doin it all for you. I can't count the number of times I've caught Beth trying to sneak a peak!
Oh good gawd. My brain eyes! I'm blind. That's just wrong. We once had to have a sit-down discussion with a fleet sailor because of the attire he chose to wear during / after sailing. That crap was so sheer, we gained insight as to his religious background. wrong wrong wrong. Ding, I expect better. 50 is an excuse for a lot of things, but you're supposed to give us things to look forward to....things like having really tall bushes by the street in your front yard because
every man should be able to walk out his front door and scratch his balls
. That kind of stuff....the stuff that allows you to appreciate your aging manhood but doesn't make everyone have to look at it.
Unless you're willing to lead the charge back into the OD camp, let these people be. The dark cloud that is you is bringing me down, damn... I thought Mark was negative.
You're right Ding, but in Tad's defense, at least he doesn't wear spandex in the boat park.
Tad, Maybe the feeling you have when you look at your boat is just that you've realized it may be time for a different boat. I can relate to that.
Look at the boat, realize it's time for a different one, and can't figure out how to get there. I've definitely been there.
Me and Undecided have at least 3.5 more years together.
Wife has to get through with all her various internships, residencies and other bullcrap before I can even broach the topic without getting yelled at.
Capt’n,
What are you really expecting to happen here?
There are a fair number of I20 out there. The class is theoretically run by the factory, which as far as I’ve seen does nothing. The few active guys have tried to generate some interest, but cannot even agree to take over the organization themselves (Ding and his apathy comment are spot on)
Now you are tying again to start an F20 class. This was killed in the past by the I20 crowd refusing to compromise. (This is their right by the way.) Your current rule set is now another political BS compromise driven by a few responders (mostly I20 guys I would guess), who if history prevails will never actually join the class anyway, at least in a supporting role. (These guys are bitching now they do not want to race because somebody might have a new sail – and you expect them to come out when the boat next to them might weight 20 lbs less???) You are now far enough away from the I20 rule that they will not change, you eliminate several current designs, and have nothing of interest to present to even a home builder to try and make a boat to fit.
To get new boats into the mix, there has to be 1) An active race schedule already in place, or 2) Some other incentive for a builder to make a boat. The I 20 is the only existing boat that could be qualified to be currently active, unless you throw in a few H20 with spins. Not even the current builder of the I20 is interested in the prospect of helping this. The other reason there are 20’s of other design showing up is to provide a chance to achieve line honors at races. The biggest fastest boat generates press and advertising value for the company/ designer or whatever. Building a politically compromised I 20 will get nothing in the way of interest from any builder and without boats you will not get the racing no matter how many posts you throw out there.
If you really want to race a 20 and get the fleet going then fast, then get off your butt and round up the I 20 guys out there.
Otherwise just open up the B class rules 20 long 10 wide and some limit on sail area – all else goes. See what eventually gets built for line honor boats. It took a long time for the C-class but it is still going.
Open 20
...
well the sail set and mast are to large but put a n20 mast on it and if the weight is over 350 your good to go
Tad do you want to keep over paying for parts from nacra? Win you can by sails from a loft of your choice for half the cost? And put sum development in to them yourself? Nacra does not even support the fleet/OD class anymore. The parts prices will go up due to the fact that they are now special order parts!!!
As for the nacra 6.0 I assume you’re talking about the class dyeing around the time with the whole NA thing. You were not even sailing then how would you know? Take it from me a as I worked at a dealer forever and have sold thousands of nacra parts/boats . The 6.0 class died win the I18/I20 came out its a case of what happens win the factory stops supporting a class.
The N20 is my favorite boat of all time but they will let it die off just like the 6.0!!!
In my opinion the class is gone either way. But I would still like to see a fast 20 foot class.
The N20 is a good starting point for this new class to get off the ground and that’s it. I intend to build a boat to the class specs
Please remember no one if forcing anything on you tad feel free to keep your boat stock and sail in the OD Class if that’s what you like that’s your right. There is a lot more stock 20’s than open 20’s
Charlie,
I appreciate what you're trying to do - but the fact of the matter is that you're trying to change the rules that we all originally signed up for when we bought the boats.
Do I like the fact that Nacra won't support the class? No. Do I think that what you're doing is going to fix that? Not at all.
The fact of the matter is that I could go out and buy new aftermarket sails - sure. I could spend $1000 on a new main, new spin or whatever.
Then Captain Moneybags could go out and buy a new set of custom made 3DI sails (or whatever the latest wizzbang material is these days). At least the F18 class has reasonable restrictions on them.
I mean with these rules, you can build a wing and put it on the boat and be perfectly legal to race. How is that going to help the N20 persevere?
I think that there's not much you can do. The Tybee 500's F18 results domination signaled the death knell of the class - and its just going to keep declining. Open sails aren't going to make people buy the boat more than they are now.
BTW, if I wanted to
compete
in the O20, the first thing I would do is pop my deck lids off, and grind out as much material on the inside of the hull as I could to get closer to the 350lbs limit. That would therefore negate my participation in any further OD N20 events.
I don't have so much of a problem with you guys up in Pcola making your own rules to race under. Whatever makes you happy. What I'm more upset at is that this will now apparently split the 20 fleet racing down at Tradewinds, and I can imagine other popular regional events.
But I should probably keep my mouth shut anyways since I've got between little and no motivation to go sailing right now anyways.
Why am I even here?
so why not just coordinate with all the I20/N20 owners and figure out a regatta schedule like almost every other class does? Then you have a class without having to go through all the work to set up an Open or F group?
Was it price or quality control that was the biggest issue with EP?
If the owners decide as a group to make a sailplan change, why not approach EP (as a group) and phase in like they did with the rudders and mid-pole snuffer?
If you're not trying to regain the moniker of
Fastest beachcat on the planet
(or whatever), why are we arguing about changing the boat to make it faster? Why not work on making it (the boat and the sailors) more fun & inviting (Ding's spandex notwithstanding!). I think that would generate far more participation...
I'd have one right now if they only made garages in my deed-restricted neighborhood 6
longer <img src="<>/frown.gif" alt="frown" title="frown" height="15" width="15" />
And Tad, I'd be happy to sail with you if MICreek isn't. With as close as you guys are with John and Rick, you could
4-boat" test pretty much whenever with about an hour's +/- travel.
the people who came up with this stuff are trying to maintain the N20 as a viable racing platform. I wasn't into cat sailing at the time, but even with the attempts to maintain the N6.0 class, it still went bye bye because the N20 came out. The N20 was a reasonable boat to jump to from the 6.0. What was the price of a N20 relative to the cost of a new 6.0 at the time?
The issues:
1. the manufacturer doesn't give a crap about the N20 anymore so isn't going to market (or make for that part) the N20. This pretty much eliminates the SMOD aspect of the class. If this is eliminated, then who would keep buying outdated OD sails for them? This further kills the class.
2. there is no other reasonable platform for the
big boys.
I would argue that the F20c is not a reasonable alternative to the N20 at this time (or maybe ever).
Join the new wave or die (and still possibly die, but at least then you will have company)
Suddenly occurred to me that now would be a good time for a manufacturer to come out with a reasonably priced 20 footer. No craziness, just a solid 20 footer (overgrown infusion looking sort of deal). Of course they won't make any money though....
I keep remembering that for a big part of their history, A class cats were homebuilds, out of wood for the most part. They didn't really become hi-tech until they wanted to get below 200 lbs.!
http:/
any wealthy folk want to buy the plugs for the N20 and fire off a few sets if PC isn't going to build them anymore?
I agree that there aren't any other 20 foot alternatives that I'm aware of.
If I recall, the I20 wasn't that much more than a N6.0, especially since it already had the spinnaker on it
Forget it..The F20Carbon is so superior that it has obsoleted all the other 20 footers except maybe the Marstom20..Its a lot of money but well worth every penny. Guys try the f20c out.. It is absolutely brilliant.
Newsflash: I top of the line, Tybee 500 winner, Tradewinds winner etc. N20 is available for less than $12k now. I sold my boat, easily capable of the same, for less than $9k (older sails). The guys racing these boats are generally bigger (crew weight >400 lbs), and don't have the $33k for a F20c (in general).
I bought the N20 because, at the time, the local fleet size was large, lake sailing and ocean sailing were the predominate racing conditions, for which the N20 is great at. I'm living in a generally light-air location nowadays, with an active N20 fleet, but I sold the boat before moving here and won't be buying another. Why? I don't need a boat capable of supporting a >400 lb crew, making the F18 a much more ideal platform given the large fleet size, and the fact that for $12k I can buy a competitive boat.
If I had unlimited $$$ (working on that part), I'd have a F18 and a F20c, with the later for pure distance racing events where flat line speed is king and the former for large fleet around the buoys racing.
What f18 is 12k?
What f18 is 12k?
A good competitive used infusion or capricorn can easily be found for around $12K
What f18 is 12k?
A good competitive used infusion or capricorn can easily be found for around $12K
Gotcha, I thought he (we) were talking new boat costs.
seriously. Who has 33k for a cat? Unless you are sponsored and/or can write off the cost of the boat (can the Zhik boat do this?) then it out of reach for the vast majority of people.
Come on... The cost of the boat is related to the game you want to play. You decide if it's worth it!
If you are pursuing an Olympic Campaign...A Tornado would have set you back about that amount.... Is a T worth it?
Take a look at the Melges 20 class... I think those boats are 50 to 60K... They come with an International racing circuit run by the builder. They have more class racing going on then does the F16 which has years of boats out in the fleets at 1/3 the price. The melges owners think its a good game to play.
The issue is not the cost of the boat per se... rather... Is there a race or set of races that I simply want to win or own the course records for!
The Seacart 30 that we race against on the Chesapeake is simply gone in any race... Hardly a contest unless it's a reachy kind of day. This owner researched the boat (15 world wide) got a deal, made an offer and decided he wanted to own some records and day sail with his wife!. So, it's worth every penny to him. He has owned LOTs of pricey high tech mono's... and says this is the most fun of them all. (We can't figure out why there are not more deep pocket sailors like him... cause we want a ride like our buddy George snagged)
The problem with the new Nacra boat is that there are no obvious races that you can point the thing at. The good news is that a few owners see it differently... Apparently, the quality of the ride is an overwhelming grin. The few races are good enough for them.
Nevertheless... my general rule... It's never about the boat... It is always about the game!
The same point must be made about an Open 20 rule. If the game is interesting enough, prestigious, competitive enough crazy, off the wall, or just of great personal interest to you.... You will play.
Like Dave, I see what these guys are trying to accomplish. There are as they say... lots of ways to skin a cat... My choice would have been to copy the EU and race like they do at CARNAC ...eg handicap... (I think it's a tough sell to say it's a level playing field)
So... IMO... its about the game to play, then the boat and the quality of the ride and then the dollars.. Would you spend any amount of money to compete in a game you don't want to play... Answer NO... Would you spend any amount of money to sail a boat that sails poorly? No... Life is too short.