I hate to break bad news again but I am really getting frustrated by how Performance Catamarans is coming up with their pricing. While all this pricing is in regard to the Nacra 20 there must be parts that are affecting F17s, F18s, and etc. It's not just the 200% increase in the masts.. it's all across the product line.
I have 3 instances in which I went to make large purchases at one point in the year, held off on the purchase, went back to make the purchase at a later date to find out the price had jumped by several hundred dollars.
In all circumstances I contacted 2-3 dealers to confirm this pricing. Each quoted me a price and then contacted me later to let me know that a new pricelist had just come out to make the item even more.
-New jib) I purchased a new jib in May for approximately $570. It has now jumped up to over $800.
-New spinnaker) I was quoted $1,050 in May. I ended up purchasing it in August when the price ended up being close to $1,500.
-Self tacker) I am in the process of purchasing a new self tacker. I have been told numerous prices. One price was $399 with the line kit at $118. The next day I was contacted and told the new pricelist said $530 with the line kit at $420.
This is completely ridiculous! Working in the industry, I could piece together this line kit for $100-$150 and sell it for $200-$250. $420 is completely unjustified unless it is gold plated blocks!
-New mast) I'm not purchasing one, but you all know about the recent price of around $11,000 when it was $5,600 in May.
I work for a sailboat dealer which is owned by and adjacent to the manufacturer. We and all of our dealers get price increases at the beginning of the year and that's it. 4-5 times over the course of several months is ludicrous. And it’s not like they are sending them lists with the outlines changed! They are sending them many pages of pricing and the dealer is on their own to figure out what has changed. There is no way Performance should expect their dealers to be able to function with this happening. It is unfair to the dealers and the customers.
I am in no way blaming the dealers. They are just trying to make a living. Apparently the dealers have been complaining to Performance with no results.
I am blaming Performance Catamarans for this. If anyone out there can justify any of these price increases please explain to me on this forum or private message me.
If we want any change or the prices to stop inflating we need to do something about this!
That being said, I don’t believe going our own route and leaving the factory out of class decisions is the correct path as without factory support the class would suffer tremendously.
Does anyone else have experience with a pricing fiasco? Please share and maybe we can bring it to the attention of Performance Catamarans.
-Todd Riccardi
I totally agree with you, that is ridiculous. Time for you to purchase that F18 Capricorn from Fun in the Sun.
Ive read over and over again the complaints about Perf Cats etc. What I dont understand is why purchase from them? Perf Cats is no one without its clientele, so if you folks looked elsewhere for your parts they will eventually have to do something about it, oh but I forgot, you are purchasing parts for a N20 which in turn is SMOD huh? I honestly think the Tybee500 is the only race that is keeping this class going. Once the Tybee migrates to F18 the DBS will welcome the N20 into its ranks.
Once the Tybee migrates to F18 the DBS will welcome the N20 into its ranks.
One needs to finish it first.
Looks like the time may be quickly approaching for a Formula N-20 class. The pricing is definitely ludicrous and the only thing worse is the wait.
When I replaced my spin earlier this year, it was nowhere near that much. Also, I don't know about that jib price either.
Secondly, I think there's a movement underway to try and kill the N20 class by Nacra. I'm guessing they all want us sailing F18's which is a shame since I wouldn't be able to sail an F18 without a pet midget on board as crew.
Am I missing something here? Isn't it an iF20 boat anyway? Sail it as such and save a bundle.
Cheshirecatman
Nope. It doesn't fit in the F20 box rule.
Those sail prices are steep, IMO. SMOD can do that to you and you just have to eat it right? Same reason anti-trust laws were created.
So I got over my initial discontent after hearing the prices of the self tacker and gave Jack Young a call. I told him about this thread and that I did not start it to attack P.C. but to hopefully give them constructive criticism.
The main point I expressed to him is that they need to get these prices under control and keep everyone in the loop as to why these prices are where they are.
He told me that times are tough with gas prices and that they are not selling as many units as the old days (especially when it comes to the 20 class). But at the same time he agreed the prices were high and told me that many prices are out of whack and will hopefully be corrected out soon.
We discussed the mast issue some but in order not to spread any rumors, all I want to say is that he said they are actually working on it and want the mast to be cheaper just as much as we do. He said he does not post here because of all the false rumors that get started. I told him he needs to address the classes and keep them informed on what is going on.
Tad, when did you buy your sails? I bought my jib in May and spinnaker in August at NA's. I was quoted similar prices by 3 dealers.
Can we not turn this into a dead boat discussion? That will kill any sort of productivity.
The 20 is not a F20 it is a Nacra 20, a one design class with one design sails. Jack and others have told me their concern with making it a 20 is the class cannot survive an arms race. The same happened with the P19 and N6.0. There's not the healthy competition like the F18 between manufacturers. There are also no sailmakers who have developed sails for the 20 that would be competitive so we would end up paying more in development.
We currently do have to just eat the costs... but if it becomes outrageous.. which it has... we need to let them know when we aren't willing to pay anymore. Personally i'm not willing to pay much more! What happens next year?
These aren't gas prices where we have little say in the matter, we should be able to affect the class and the manufacturer.
time to start having non
class legal
sailmakers get in on the game so the boats can have a life after SMOD.
Not calling the class dead... just seems people are reaching a breaking point with the boat.
I think there is always going to be a market for a 20 footer, but not a huge one. They will inherently be more expensive than smaller boats - more so without competition between manufacturers.
The Inter 20 was introduced as an if20 boat. Is it just the oversize main(iF20=18sq m) takes the Nacra 20 one design outside the rule?
Cheshirecatman
I believe that is it. Not sure on weight, but I can't imagine it would be under any minimum.
My thought on the Formula Inter 20 class would be , allow aluminum masts if wanted and open up the sails to any maker.Platform stays the same with the exception of extrusions (Spin pole and boom) which you get killed on the price and then again for the shipping.Obviously you'd need guidelines.
I have talked to Jack about the costs and he had reasons but didn't seem to have any solutions.
And Tad those prices are correct, I was quoted that high and higher.
INTER -20 MAIN 1 1,754.14
I-20 BATTENED JIB 1 705.79
INTER -20 FURLING JIB 1 662.11
N-20 (3 HOLE) SPINNAKER - MIDPOLE 1 1,435.61
SPINNAKER I-20 2 HOLE - ENDPOLE 1 1,356.41
Note how expensive that extra grommet on the spin is.I was also told I should count on a 3 month lead time, because the focus is on sending stuff to Europe.
I LOVE the boat,as most of you know, and am a diehard supporter of it. But this mess is hard to take.
I think some discussion on this, from those it pertains to(i.e. I-20 owners), would be good.
Todd
p.s. Tad I'm midgetless myself. Plus I like the extra 2 feet.
Todd,
As I stated previously, I am afraid that opening it up might hurt the class.
Your absolutely right about the 20 owners needing to have a discussion on this.
The question is when and where? We haven't had any regattas with a majority of the class in attendance.
Could we set up something online? A private thread even with posters being approved by moderator?
Maybe if we pool our resources we can offer PC some options.
The other Todd
well, as far as the gas prices are concerned, oil dropped below $70/barrel today so we might be seeing some relief there...
I bought my new main and spin after my disasterous debacle and nightmare that was Tradewinds 2007. Purchased 6 weeks prior to Spring Fever and I had to get the main drop shipped to Nigel's house so I had it for the regatta 😛
Not only that, but the class association is non-existent as far as I can tell. I don't know who to even send money to or who to contact about concerns with the class. AFAIK Jack is our class president.
As it stands around here, mid-east, there's really no class to speak of. Sometimes enough boats show to make a class. I don't see how opening it could hurt the
class
as long as parameters are laid out to keep it from becoming an arms race. Opening the sail to different makers would increase quality and lower the price.If you weren't comfortable with another sailmaker you use Skips i.e. the factory sail. Size stays the same.No carbon added anywhere it all ready isn't.No performance enhancing mods.
As it is we have 2 self tackers,2 booms, 3 styles of rudders, sails of many dimensions,3 spin pole combos,2 different style jibs,and 2 different style tramps,off the top of my head. We aren't exactly a one design even though we are.
This isn't necessarily something I want to do but seems it may be the only way to make it affordable/viable which would keep the class going instead of kill it.
I don't see PC lowering their prices ever, even if they could. If the peeps is buyin' why drop the price. For them it's good business,For us it's called a rock and a hard place.
Todd
See Todd, I don't think that boats are an inelastic commodity. People aren't going to dish out $25k for a Nacra 20 when they can get an infusion for almost half that.
I suspect that the reason behind prices' escalation of P.C. is the marketing strategy choosen by the new owner, the European company Nacra Europe (ex Jan de Boer), intended to make even the listing on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.
Notwithstanding the huge devaluation of the USD vs EUR exchange rate the quotations of Nacra cats in Europe have not
changed: the cheapest boat, the 460, is sold at EUR 8,950 (around EUR 7,600 ex VAT or USD 10,000), while the most expensive N20 is sold at EUR 21,480 (EUR 18,300 ex VAT or USD 24,500). As you see they are not far from the above mentioned US quotations
I could just be that the I-20 market in Europe dried up. Nacra stepped out of the F20 class to form their own I-20 strickt SMOD class. I'm still not convinced this move was a wise one on their part. It killed the Hobie Fox which is probably a thing they thought advantagious (although the Fox was already very much on its knees) but from then onwards they had to support the class and market on their own. The French are not at all interested in 20 footers. The Germans never took to the F20 as other EU nations unlike UK and Netherlands. However both these nations are indeed gravitating strongly to F18; have been doing so for years. Especially after the F18 Worlds in NL a few years back. One can buy I-20's overhere secondhand for very attractive prices. Lots on offer only few takers; I doubt many new boats are sold. I think the US market has contracted for them as well.
All in all this may all just be a market development coming back to bite them.
Wouter
I always love it when the thread of an
arms race
and ludicrously rising SMOD prices are placed next to one another in one sentence.
Isn't it the whole idea of preventing an arms race (SMOD ?) to keep prices low ? How come that classes like a A's, 18HT's and F16's can put carbon masts on their platforms for 3000 and the SMOD for only 11.000 ?
In this situation what the hell is the advantage of a SMOD status ? I mean, to the sailor and class member of course. The advantage to the builder is obvious enough.
Wouter
Carbon has increased somewhat, the issue is also that the exchange rate has gone the wrong way for the US sailors, so any carbon part gets whacked twice if its made outside the US.
You could easily make a 120 mast for $3k in the US, Forte has a Tornado teardrop mast mold and his price last year was $1100 for a 33 ft section. So even with inflation on carbon, I'm guessing the price is around $2k for a bare tube, no fittings.
this would be perfect considering that the
alternative supplier
that I heard is also foreign-made. I believe our masts are 32' long.
Jack, you see this!?!?!!
That's BS. There was no real arms race with the N6.0 and the P19 until they were no longer making class at regatta's
What is the advantage of following the Nacra Factory class rules?
The 6.0 class tried to remain viable with the NE spinaker and snuffer package but were not supported by the factory and the class died.
History does not support a US breakaway from the Nacra Factory Rules.
(no matter how much logical support you can muster)
I'm pretty sure that the N20's appearance contributed to the N6.0's decline.
I could be wrong.
I agree, the
shiny-itis
of the N20, as well as it's improved design (with a spinnaker included) may have contributed to the 6.0 decline.
I loved the N20 and will eventually consider another (once crew and time commitments clear up), as I like medium distance 'point to point' racing as well as w/l can racing, and this platform shows the best ability to handle those diverse assignments in a variety of wind/water states.
SMOD vs. one-design vs. box rule? Not sure where the answer lies, but if a domestic supplier can provide parts at a fraction of an international supplier, it would seem to be a good business decision on the manufacturer's part to develop a rapport with various suppliers (in the countries the platform is sold) to develop sources... I thought that's what licensing was all about?
Not so sure about switching to aluminum masts, but if they're as
idot tolerant
as the current carbon ones, I guess that'd be okay...
And if we're to switch masts (from carbon to aluminum), why not consider a wing-shape rather than teardrop? Might as well upgrade if major changes are going to happen anyway...
Would there be any validity in a North American F20 class, using the specs of the N20 with larger sailplan? I know Eurpoe's weather conditions warrant a somewhat smaller mainsail, but if the N20 design is easily convertable between the two F20 classes by switching mainsail, it might help strengthen demand...
If you think that a NACRA 20 is pricey then look at the Melges 20. Same length & draws 4'6", 2 feet less beam & carbon stick=$50,000.
And there is a waiting list.
Jack
Yes, the N20 was the hot new boat at the time... but the N6.0 class thought that adding a spin would keep the class going. They met with a lot of resistance from the factory which had a buisness plan which included 6.0 sailors upgrading to N20's.
The 6.0 with spin was never included in the Performance nationals and the independent Nacra 6.0 with spin class never really got going.
My point is that unless the N20 sailors want to step up and run their own class (rules, measurment NA's) ... the premium they pay is for Performance to host their nationals and provide dealers and take care of all of these issues.
The F18 sailors took this organization task on and they just hosted a very succesful NA's.....
Hmm..
When people talk about parts, etc for their boats and factory support I often wonder what parts, specifically need to be obtained from them. In SMOD classes, I believe all the parts need to be obtained from them. I think there are very few parts that are very unique to a boat that can't be sourced elsewhere, especially with the internet. Most hardware on these boats are produced by other manufacturers anyway (do you think Performance makes the track? Makes the blocks, lines, spin pole, hoop, sock?). The factory cuts the pole yes, maybe drills a few holes here and there, but with the exception of beams, masts, hulls, then there is very little that absolutely needs to be obtained from the original manufacturer.
The 6.0 with spin was never included in the Performance nationals and the independent Nacra 6.0 with spin class never really got going.
My point is that unless the N20 sailors want to step up and run their own class (rules, measurment NA's) ... the premium they pay is for Performance to host their nationals and provide dealers and take care of all of these issues.
The F18 sailors took this organization task on and they just hosted a very succesful NA's.....
Hmm..
I know you are making a short statement about a long topic - but that's not exactly how F18 happened in the US. It rode into the US from European leadership was VERY manufacturer / dealer supported initially (in the US) which was a cause for some ruckus when the US rules were modified from the European ones that appeared to favor a particular brand. The class matured enough from there that leadership grew within that aligned it with the European rule and we have today a great class. It very likely would not have started without the manufacturer/dealer involvement that kick started things initially.
See Todd, I don't think that boats are an inelastic commodity. People aren't going to dish out $25k for a Nacra 20 when they can get an infusion for almost half that.
Your absolutely right,but my guess is PC would bury the class before they made it competitive w/ the Infusion. they are Euro based now and that's(F-18) a euro based class.
Mark,
As usual your wrong. Tad's right on, the Inter killed the 6.0. So you can't even compare this situation to that, because there is not a better 20' being released.It's the only show in town and the one of the best distance racers ever.It makes no sense to me to try and squash it or let it die. Us big boys need a boat for the lighter North American winds.Apparently it's more than the Euro folks can or want to handle in the heavier winds they have, i.e. the migration to F-18.
Todd
p.s. Jack won't even return my calls anymore.