Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control!

Mike, I think a lot of would be I20 sailors might be scared of breaking a mast with an $11,000 replacment cost.

makes paying extra for comprehensive coverage for your boat all the more worth it!

I was talking about long before this 11K mast issue came along. That is a new problem.

Mike,

I not telling you that you are wasting your time getting a class formed and viable. I think its vital if you want the boat to have any future. I constantly agitate that sailors need to step up to all of their responsiblities for their Club, Class and USSA responsibilites.

But apathy is the historical problem....

I wish you well.

However... your call to arms to form a class is in the thread called.. Performance pricing ... out of control.
Many will think that forming a new class association will address this problem and are now interested in the notion of a US N20 class. History says that you should be cautious in seperating from the factory. The Nacra 6.0 guys tried to go their own way to keep the racing class viable and events killed them off. Unless you think the factory is trying to kill the class by gouging you with the mast issue. What is there to discuss? ... they don't make the mast... they buy it from the supplier and have to stock a certain number.

Now if the class would ask them to do the R and D to develop a new rig for the N20 ... THAT is big request.

How you get the healthy balance between a class organization and the builder/dealers is not clear to me.

If anybody actually read all the posts in this thread, they'd see I was talking about Opening up the sails, spin pole, and mast. Platform and foils stay the same to Halt A Arms race.F-20 was not what I was talking about, some people brought that up and ran with it. I think that's a BAD idea. I called what I was thinking about Formula I-20, but I guess it would be like Rick said ,a more open one design.
My problem with the cost of the sails is the quality that you get for that money.For $1,700.00 I can get a better quality sail than what I'm offered.The Infusion sails are nicer and cheaper.I wish you had the choice of Peter Vick's(Infusion)sail or Elliott/Pattison sails.They'd both be factory sails.

I finally talked to Jack Young and he said it all boils down to less numbers. They can't stock the parts like they could when they were moving more 20s.

Mark, your repeating yourself and the doom and gloom is getting old. 6.0 argument is apples to oranges.

Mike ,I'd be interested in some class organization of some sort,at the least a discussion as to what would be involved. I'll shoot you a PM.

Todd

Don't you think that performance would just stop supporting the boat altogether if the sailors move off with their own program as you proposed?

Not sure. But as Matt Bounds posted above CRAM ran the race (Nationals), I'm not sure what performance put up but I guess they picked up the tab. You make it sound like they put on a whole series of N-20 races or something.
If your talking about parts,they'd be foolish to stop selling them at the premium they get.
Again, I'm not pushing for this unless the class is really dying. The signs are there, but they are there for most all of sailing(In my best Schneideresque voice).

By the way Mark, How many Performance cats have you owned?

No doubt you can get great sails from any number of sailmakers.. But this is the question right... do you stop the decline or speed it up.

I don't think this is the most pressing issue.
Seems to me... you need that series of Nacra 20 races that the core of the class agrees to support and then you work to get those regional sailors with boats to get to those regattas.

If you have a dynamic helpful racing class doing one scheduled event a month or two ... you get the weekend sailor to come out and then you can get new interest in the boat.

Here is a recent example..the New England A Class fleet is based in Bristol RI... they have at least half of the top sailors in the class racing Tuesday nights. While the class has grown elsewhere in the USA.... It has been stuck at the same level for years and years in New England. The problem was that the class ran one weekend event a year in Bristol and that was it for all of New England A class Racing.
So... the class put out the call to support a new regatta at American Yacht Club and featured the regatta as one of their 4 highpoint events. The class hopes that the YC members would see what an A class catamaran was all about and establish a fleet at the club. Secondly. the event was midway between Bristol and Hopactong A Class clubs and would be a good regatta venue. The Annapolis Fleet was about 4 1/2 hours away as well. The regatta was great and the 20+ A class boats were the largest fleet at the dinghy regatta.... Time will tell if the hook sets and club members get boats.

For sure... if you only have one event a year... you are just a walking member of the dead boat society. Then you will be perfectly able to get sails from any sailmaker in the world.

How many Performance boats ..... None.... my choice... choose between new I20 or Tornado.... I thought the I20 was ugly as sin.. I thought the class associations were about the same... I knew I could get great sails for the Tornado... The T is truly a great boat.. the N20 is a good boat.

Next boat... F16 or A class.... F16... No class structure or history of going racing.... True today as it was then... A class... they go racing.

It's all about who you can count on to go racing. The only other classes I can say that about are the Hobie 16 sailors (I don't have any 100 lbs midget friends or kids to race with).

So you were just throwing the

Factory

thing out there with no clue about what they do or don't do? Nice. Go stir the pot with the A class guys.

the factory thing?

No... If you show up with non stock sails, tramps, etc, etc ... you don't get to play at the NA's.

If you show up at a Portsmouth race with non class legal sails you should take a rating hit as well.

So.. it really boils down to do what is best for the racers...Are you better off with or without the factory support and the factory run class.

It is not clear at all!

By all means Todd... Make the case that the class will be stronger if you get enough n20's to go with independent suppliers.

I just don't think its the major issue.

Hey Rick,
Can you add an IGNORE button?

The F18 platform is just too small for a couple of big guys and Nacra will have no part in a true F20 class. As it is now there are no real guarantees as to what you are buying as they seem to change parts and specs as the wind blows.

build it and they will come. If there is a successful F20 class there will be manufacturers. However, no manufacturer is going to jump in and try to develop an F20 class so he can have more competition among the other manufacturers...why should they?

F18 was created in Europe by the sailors - not the manufacturers.

One one hand I like the idea of opening up the Nacra 20 (by the sailors) to custom sails, masts, and rigging. However, I don't think the class has the strength to survive the shift. It would be much like the Nacra 6.0...although it won't have a directly competing boat to steal class sailors. True, there may be some component of an arms race but it will be negligible. Everybody thought that F18 would become that but it never really has. In fact, sails for F18s are very economical. A-cats too (although if you want the champion's sail shapes you will pay for them)

A) I like the Nacra 20
B) I don't like Mark Schneider, at least in the virtual world.
C) I'll sail the Nacra 20 even if it is a dead boat...at least until something better comes along.
D) Jake's getting old, he's even sailing an A-cat now. I bet he goes to Starbucks, watches French films, and probably even listens to indy rock. Beware of Jake.

What's wrong with indy rock!? You're right about French films though... you gotta really want it do sit through that.

For the record, when the F18HT came out they called the N20 a dead boat then so it's be in the DBS for a while. Still doing pretty well for a dead boat, and whole lot better than some HP and HT classes out there.

Whatever Mark. 3 F16's top the leader board even on the most active racing scheme in your neck of the woods. F16's are in more then halve of the Alter Cup qualifiers and doing very well indeed. The F16's are racing, we just don't believe in a 5 boats or less

own start

One-Design fleet, so most of the F16 racing is in open class regatta's.

You are entitled to your opinion but saying the F16's have

no history of going racing

is just plain BS and you of all people know that. You are known to work out adjusted race result with F16 rating = F18 rating on more then a few occasions.

With respect to the N20 class, I think that the owners taking things in their own hands in the only viable path for the future. Keep the OD status but get rid of the SMOD status. Going OD is still some ways of going full formula (boxrule)

Wouter

For the record, Jake's got a buddy from Molly Hatchet.

And at what age to you start to hear the Sirens lure to the A? Some sailors seem to have the innate ability to drown out the call, Capt Kirk has the immunity.

The Cap'n has had many, many vaccines. It takes a hardy bug, indeed, to survive in the hostile environment that is Kirk. And his hearing isn't what it used to be, so that Siren can shout 'till she's hoarse.

Maybe just being argumentative but when I raced (alot) in Ca. I never saw one F16 at an event. I've only seen one here in Tx. and 3 or 4 at Mid Winters last year in Pensacola (one broke in half). San Diego has quite an impressive I20 fleet and I noticed the same in Florida. We still have a few in Texas and enough to show up and get thier own class in most races. The F18 definately is the class drawing the Top Talent here and I think a big contributor to the decline in the I20 scene BUT until a better 20 footer comes along, the class won't die, it's just too good of a boat. It's tough, fast and is much more modern than the old Tornado.

Lee

I'd still like to see/hear more a/b the White 20.

The white F20 is not new, i think I 1st raced against it in the iF20 europeans/westland cup in about 2001. It has poped up in a few different guises since

Didn't break in half. Kind of like saying every N20 at the Alter Cup in 06 broke their boards and rudders.
I am not trying to start/perpetuate an F16 vs World thread, but you know how things take on a life of their own when a comment like that is made.

Is this the White 20?

Maybe.... I thought the previous pics I had seen showed the daggers entering at an angle next to the shrouds.

What the hey is this--

Daggers entering at an angle

?
Another rumor or true? More Canted boards?

It looks like one of the boats built by white formula for john de vries. I did hear of one of the designs having four boards. The other white formula/swell catamarans f20 was the storm.

Cheshirecatman

It is the White Formula 20, and yes it does have 4 boards in current trim.

God I hate to have to agree with Trey. But there it is.
And for clarification I sail an A when I can't find crew for the 20, but I don't do any of that other sissy crap.

And I get one more year older this weekend too. <img src="<>/cry.gif" alt="cry" title="cry" height="15" width="15" />

I am late to this thread, but I thought I might chime in since I am a N6.0 (Worrell setup) owner who skipped the N20 and now sail an A-class.

1. First, cost of boats: I remember in the late 1970s and early 1980s, a Laser cost $2000 at Backyard Boats Alexandria. At the last boat show I attended, that same boat costs 6500Euro! Is this because cheaper boats are from companies producing at a loss or because Vangard is exploiting a monopoly? I suspect the answer is probably both and is still both with all SMODs, just that guys like PC can't push as hard as Vangard because their market is far less rohbust.

2. I loved sailing a big strong 2 man boat designed for American (100kg)220lb guys. Our mistake (in the US) however, is that we let Mast and Sail be under SMOD control. This is where the poorest value/money is revealed and you see boats like the A-class able to draw from a larger pool of person-size because there is flexibility here. SMOD is a great technique to control platform costs. Box rules are needed on sail and rig to lengthen their competitive lifespan and broaden the fleet size. Big boats have developed tools to control the costs here through number of sail registration limits, sails owned by the class, etc. But I find the 20ft class limiting because your total crew weight must fit within such a narrow band.

3. The spinnaker (Worrell unlimied from) standard for distance racing kept the N6.0 competitive for a very long time after the N20 for this type of racing. But this configuration was impossible for buoy racing and improvised buoy sized systems were frustrating to developer yourself and given correction factors set by the history of the oversize distance versions. The Boston fleet tried to fix this with a 'class spinnaker' with snuffer. Unfortunately, by the time they developed their system, N20s had already become the dominant buoy+distance combination boat. Lesson learned, the boat will become obsolete because of inflexibility in the sail plan far earlier than it will for platform issues.

The day new boats stop entering the fleet (to create used boats for newcomers) is the day that marks the beginning of fleet death. High prices and low volumes always come together with a dieing fleet. This can be triggered by arms race or inflexibility. European arms races seem to be less damaging to the fleets than American over-control from my view. The problem is that SMOD are easy to organize, the manufacturer does all the work and takes all the up front risks.

Matt Mayfield