From this discussion; it appears that with the advancement in design many of you feel that a Hobie Tiger, NACRA F-18, etc… are not competitive platforms against the newer generation boats, but are still great boats…
Seems this would be a great way to keep the casual racer involved with out the needed expense of having to have to keep up with the latest and greatest.
Thoughts?
Absolutely not!!! That is the dangerous talk that is helping to divide what is left of the I20 fleet. Besides, I would bet money that if I put Tomko or Mischa on a Tiger and borrowed their boat, they would still whip me. The older boat designs are dated, no doubt, but they can still be competitive in certain conditions. As far as I know the Tiger still enjous a pretty active Tiger One Design class.
This is apple to oranges as to what is happening to the Inter/NACRA 20 Class. There you have a bunch of sailors... well maybe two or three owners to be realistic, that want to pull away from the OD class and make this a Formula or an Open Class. And to be frank I don’t blame them for doing this. I ordered a new set of centbaords for my 20 back in December, and from what I understand they are still not available from NACRA….glad to see the factory is 100% behind the fleet and glad I sold the boat last March.
I do agree that you can take a top notch competitor and put them on any platform and they’ll win, and the one design option is always there, but OD is not F-18 sailing and this is where the most action is. Hell I use to watch Brad Lackey show up at our local MX races with an old tired enduro bike and smoke the likes of a Jeff Ward, Rick Johnson etc… back in the day.
Put it in this perspective, you own a 2003 F-18 with better that average sails etc… and you show up at an event where there is a bunch with the latest Infusion, Wildcat, Capicorn, newest sail designs and the other go fast bells and whistles. During the race you constantly finish at the back of the pack and you know you’re better sailor that what your race results state… What do you think is going to go through your head the next time a race comes around?
I know what you’re thinking, time to upgrade if you want to win.. Nope not an option… some of us have mortgages, college & retirement funds, and a life outside of sailing that eats up a good portion of our entertainment dollars. Or sail harder and more often…again revert back to the statement a life outside sailing!
My opinion, this would help build the class, get more turnouts for the races (think entry fees and what it cost to host a regatta) and make it fun for those of us that are casual racers.
Hi Rolf,
I have been sailing a Tiger the last 4 years against newer designs. From my experience, it IS a very nice boat. Locally, we were quite competitive upwind, but I think we would have been a little bit faster downwind with a newer design. With waves, the Tiger just gets deaccelerated by waves hitting the rear crossbar. Also, the newer designs tack and jibe faster.
Regarding your list, I would say the Cap and the Infusion are
new
designs. The C2 improves hull shape over the Cap (which primarily reduces nose diving), the Mk2 only adds the daggerboards and some stiffness.
From your list, and having in mind your weight, I would recommend the Infusion. I have switched to a C2 and I am very happy for the moment.
Hi Claus,
thanks for your input!
It can be debated wether the Cap and Infusion can be called an
old
design. The reason I put them on the list is that they are now dropping in price to a level I can afford <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Rolf, what does this mean for your F16 project?
Is it finished yet?
We put on the foredecks for both hulls last week. Planning to drill beams/beam seats and make the setup waterproof the coming week. It is still happening.
We are targeting to purchase an F18 the coming fall after the F18 season.
This is apple to oranges as to what is happening to the Inter/NACRA 20 Class. There you have a bunch of sailors... well maybe two or three owners to be realistic, that want to pull away from the OD class and make this a Formula or an Open Class. And to be frank I don’t blame them for doing this. I ordered a new set of centbaords for my 20 back in December, and from what I understand they are still not available from NACRA….glad to see the factory is 100% behind the fleet and glad I sold the boat last March.
I do agree that you can take a top notch competitor and put them on any platform and they’ll win, and the one design option is always there, but OD is not F-18 sailing and this is where the most action is. Hell I use to watch Brad Lackey show up at our local MX races with an old tired enduro bike and smoke the likes of a Jeff Ward, Rick Johnson etc… back in the day.
Put it in this perspective, you own a 2003 F-18 with better that average sails etc… and you show up at an event where there is a bunch with the latest Infusion, Wildcat, Capicorn, newest sail designs and the other go fast bells and whistles. During the race you constantly finish at the back of the pack and you know you’re better sailor that what your race results state… What do you think is going to go through your head the next time a race comes around?
I know what you’re thinking, time to upgrade if you want to win.. Nope not an option… some of us have mortgages, college & retirement funds, and a life outside of sailing that eats up a good portion of our entertainment dollars. Or sail harder and more often…again revert back to the statement a life outside sailing!
My opinion, this would help build the class, get more turnouts for the races (think entry fees and what it cost to host a regatta) and make it fun for those of us that are casual racers.
Yep it seems the portsmouth rating could be adjusted for allot of boats. On the last leg of the Gt300 team Chums on an I-20 was quoted as miles ahead of the of the group but was passed by Cirrus R F18. The rating system shows the I20 at .593 and the F18 at .624 yet with a few miles ahead and according the numbers a faster boat Cirrus R beat him by 13 minutes? I did not hear of any boat problems with Chums and they have sailed the GT for years and leg 4 is Lee's home port and he is very skilled sailor so what happened?
If the newer F18 were the same as older one there would be no reason to buy a new one. So people with more money have an advantage its does not mean you will take first if you buy the newest F18 sailing is a skill even an art.
I almost forgot people are having trouble locating boards for the Infusions so keep NACRA's superior customer service in mind when narrowing down your choices.
If the newer F18 were the same as older one there would be no reason to buy a new one. So people with more money have an advantage its does not mean you will take first if you buy the newest F18 sailing is a skill even an art.
I am not advocating changing the Portsmouth ratings for any boat.. If the boat owners want to do this they can do so by sending the race results to US Sailing and ask for a redress on the rating as they will have the data to hack it up.
I know there is a pissing contest going on now with the NACRA 20 vs the Open 20 class to where the Open 20 folks want the same rating as the NACRA 20 while sailing with modified sail plans etc… Like I said a pissing contest!
Regarding distance racing, the DP-N rating is not the best, or to say it better, it is useless for distance racing. But this is my opinion! If I were king for the day I would look at adopting something like the SCHRS with stick adherence to the sail/boat/foil/bowsprit/rudder measurements
Getting back to where I was going with this is the possibility of setting up an Old School Class for the F-18. Maybe there is one that I don't know about, but I just don't see the need right now to convernt from a teardrop to a wing mast with the latest and greatest set of sails to be bit more equal to what is out there these days.
This is apple to oranges as to what is happening to the Inter/NACRA 20 Class. There you have a bunch of sailors... well maybe two or three owners to be realistic, that want to pull away from the OD class and make this a Formula or an Open Class. And to be frank I don’t blame them for doing this. I ordered a new set of centbaords for my 20 back in December, and from what I understand they are still not available from NACRA….glad to see the factory is 100% behind the fleet and glad I sold the boat last March.
I do agree that you can take a top notch competitor and put them on any platform and they’ll win, and the one design option is always there, but OD is not F-18 sailing and this is where the most action is. Hell I use to watch Brad Lackey show up at our local MX races with an old tired enduro bike and smoke the likes of a Jeff Ward, Rick Johnson etc… back in the day.
Put it in this perspective, you own a 2003 F-18 with better that average sails etc… and you show up at an event where there is a bunch with the latest Infusion, Wildcat, Capicorn, newest sail designs and the other go fast bells and whistles. During the race you constantly finish at the back of the pack and you know you’re better sailor that what your race results state… What do you think is going to go through your head the next time a race comes around?
I know what you’re thinking, time to upgrade if you want to win.. Nope not an option… some of us have mortgages, college & retirement funds, and a life outside of sailing that eats up a good portion of our entertainment dollars. Or sail harder and more often…again revert back to the statement a life outside sailing!
My opinion, this would help build the class, get more turnouts for the races (think entry fees and what it cost to host a regatta) and make it fun for those of us that are casual racers.
Yep it seems the portsmouth rating could be adjusted for allot of boats. On the last leg of the Gt300 team Chums on an I-20 was quoted as miles ahead of the of the group but was passed by Cirrus R F18. The rating system shows the I20 at .593 and the F18 at .624 yet with a few miles ahead and according the numbers a faster boat Cirrus R beat him by 13 minutes? I did not hear of any boat problems with Chums and they have sailed the GT for years and leg 4 is Lee's home port and he is very skilled sailor so what happened?
If the newer F18 were the same as older one there would be no reason to buy a new one. So people with more money have an advantage its does not mean you will take first if you buy the newest F18 sailing is a skill even an art.
I almost forgot people are having trouble locating boards for the Infusions so keep NACRA's superior customer service in mind when narrowing down your choices.
You seem to also be assuming that both boats, even when only a few hundred meters apart, are in the same breeze.
The Tx. gulf coast, and especially Leg 4 which ends on what we called 'East Beach' for 20+ years have very fluky varied breezes.
Did JOhn T. have boat problems?, or was he in some different winds. I dunno, I didn't do GT300 this yarn, dammit.
Lee and David had a great race, way to go Lee!
Sorry for responding so late.
When we pulled ahead, we were spinn reaching pretty high in light air. At about the half way point, we were hit with a huge shift with 15 to 20 right on the nose for a while that had us in a tacking war with the Cirrus and a Tiger. The Cirrus could go way higher to weather and rolled us. The Tiger rolled us too until we got things sorted out and got back past them. Then it lightened up a bit and we hugged the beach since the wind was trying to turn 90 degrees to the beach. Then it just got plain light and fluky. We never could make up the loss in the tacking duel with JC and Dalton.
Hei,
Avoid buying a used dutch North Sea Boat. They sail mostly hardcore there and the environment conditions are doing (giving the boat) the rest 😉 Here is a popular site for used catamarans in GER if you are interested:
http://esys.org/markt/bm_kat.html
If you find a South German one the chance is high that you get a nice boat that has never seen salty water and waves.
Take in account that the boat width of 2,59m is too much for many European road laws. If you pick the Katamaran somewhere in EU-Europe you propably have to trailer it sloped or in parts.
I would go for the Infusion btw.
Good Luck for your search. If you need translation for german ads feel free to contact me.