reefing points

Hello,
I'm also thinking of adding reefing points. My question to the experts concerns the haylard. Do you add a wire haylard on top of the sail which is the same length as the amount of sail that you have reefed? If so, does the ring connect and release from the mast hook easily when you want to raise and lower the sail? I'm want it on my Prindle, but I think the hook and ring is used on many other cats also.
Thanks,
Jack Hoying
Fort Loramie, Ohio
Prindle 18 #1645
http://www.bright.net/~jmhoying/sailing/prindle.htm

the halyard extension wont work. there has to be a attachment point directly at the head of the reefed sail. or it will blow out of the luff track. from what i understand, use the same hardware that holds the head of the sail. in the h17 case, there is a hook, i will rivot on another lower. hopefully the prindle has a hook? i think the order of things would be: 1. have reef points added at some percentage of the sail. 2. mount the hook according to the new sail height. what % should i have the sail cut???

do you have a hook and ring system up there?

Guys,

This was the same question I was milling over this winter. I have a SC20TR with a stock pin-head with muiltiple reef points (which I have never used). Currently I run a wire halyard, but was thinking of going to hook and ring for the main. In doing this, I'm affaid I would loose fast reefing ability.
There has only been one or two times I(we) should have reefed her, one race we got caught in a burst (+35), what a ride! The second race we had to bail-out and return back to the beach, too much power - live to race another day!
Good luck with mods, and remember to use it to save yourself and not to sail in soup you shouldn't be out in anyway.

there might be a problem with installing a second lower hook. if the lower hook is not removable, it will wear a hole in the sail. if it is removable, it won't be there when you need to reef the sail.

as far as the bolt rope blowing out of the luff track, you might consider having a metal slug attached to the sail at the head. if a slug can get pulled out of the track, you propably don't want to be anywhere near the water.

yes, i thought about this lower hook problem chaffing the sail, and it probably will, but shouldnt the mast rotation keep that to a minimum, or even if i mount the hook as far off center as i can get it?

if the hook is on the windward side the mast rotation will actually push the hook into the sail. the last thing you need as it starts to blow like snot is a hole in the sail. it will provide a place for a huge rip to start. remember, as it starts to blow you will harden up on the outhaul and cunningham/downhaul. this will flatten the sail to depower, but will also tighten the cloth. under these conditions a small hole will become a big hole. i think what you need is a halyard that can take the load. that way, you can lower the sail as much as you need (like it is done on a monohull). i believe the hobie 16 used a loaded wire halyard with an extra ball for reefing.

>the halyard extension wont work. there has to be a attachment point directly at the head of the reefed sail. or it will blow out of the luff track<

Could you tie a loop around the mast, then through the grommet at the head to prevent it from comming out of the luff track?
It would have to be a good knot!
Or perhaps use sister hooks to complete the loop. [color]

yes, that would be the simplest thing to do - just lash the head of the sail to the mast. i am going to try the lower hook thing anyway.

hi
my h-16 has a single reef (%??) points are in the middle of the first and second lowest battens. i just reattach it into the goose neck like the original foot, and tie the extra sail to the boom with some extra line.
works great when you need it. i've used it twice or 0.01% of the time so it's kinda useless. i have better luck just sailing very safely, unstead of trying to fly a hull in 35 knots.

just a thought. have you ever had a loose batten in a strong blow. both times it happened to me, i finished the day with a trip to the sailmaker to repair the hole where the batten pocket wore through. i really think the lower hook will do the same thing. if you install the hook off center, you might have problems making the ring catch the hook. if you do install the second hook, let us know how well it works. i suspect if it doesn't work well you will know after (or maybe during )the first day of use.

i am not talkin about 35knts of air. i am not crazy. my goal here is to sail solo under control at full power in the 18-20 range. with crew maybe a little more air. i grew up on a h16 and never used the reeefing points because it would want to pitch pole in heavy air. that boat had a slug on the halyard. with no head attachment to the comp-tip mast. same as my h17. the 16's when reefed, does the sail pull away?

i'll let you know how this works

I've thought a bit about the problem of the lower hook messing with the sail when it is fully raised. I think a hook that pivots could be created to fix this.

Think of a hook that can rotate, and has a stop to keep if from rotating further down than 90 degrees to the mast. It could be spring loaded to keep it rotated up against another stop, parallel to the mast and away from the sail when not in use. A small line from it down the mast would be all that would be needed to rotate it down so the ring could hook it - the pressure of the sail would then keep it against the stop. Let off the deployment line, pull the halyard to raise the sail and the hook would return to its position out of the way. If the spring idea is too much trouble, a second line could be added to stow it.

This wouldn't be a hard thing to create, and would make it easier to reef. If you make 'em to sell give me a split of the action...

Another thing I've thought of relates to the functionality of windsurfing sails sold by Multi-Sail (Randy Reynolds' company), in which the lower panels of the sails can be removed via zipper to make a smaller sail. On catamarans with full battens, this would seem to be an easy thing to do - zip off the lower panel leaving a smaller sail that could still have a proper downhaul and outhaul attachment. Roll up the zipped off portion and stow it on the tramp, or in a sail bag tube under the tramp.

I've always felt that it is a huge mistake that our boats don't have the capability to easily reduce sail area. I know we have all these wonderful technics for de-powering and tuning to handle the heavy stuff, but these things often create drag, and if you put a foot wrong you're in trouble. A sail plan properly configured for the conditions at hand would be faster and safer. I'm sure some purists will flame me on this one, so be it. I'll keep my belief that all cats should be able to roller furler their jibs and reef their mains (even if mine can't).

Another approach, rather than lashing the sail top to the mast, is to use a ceramic sail slug. That will keep the top of the sail in the luff grove and still slide pretty easily.

Tom H.

The Hobie 21SC has a roller furling main( it rolls up on the boom). I believe the sail is held up by only the haylard. How do they keep that sail in the track when it's reefed?

Though pricey that system would be nice for cruising.

Mike

i suggested this earlier.

i bought the stock hook plate. it won't work. the profile of the mast comp tip further down where it normally goes is too different. a custom hook would have to be made. one that is retractable and expensive. i will try something else, like seeing if the sail will actually pull from the luff track with a halyard extension to the head of the reefed sail, not a lower hook, but using the hook at the top of the pole. it works for the h16 and h21! and yes, maybe a slug in the luff track if that doesnt work.

If you have a comptip don't bother trying to use the top hook with an extention. It will definitely pull out. The only time I've seen this work is with all aluminum masts. And even then I wouldn't make any promises.

Mike Hill
H20 #791

>maybe a slug in the luff track<

On a TheMightyHobie18 & H20 the luff track is made of plastic, EXCEPT, it is substituted for an aluminum 6"-8" luff track at the top of the mast. It is that long to prevent the luff track from pulling out of the comptip, and the sail pulling out the the track?

So I am skeptical that a "slug in the luff track" will not damage the plastic luff track if the H17 is built the same way, or pull the plastic luff track out of the comptip?

Perhaps, you could substitute the plastic luff track with the alumimun luff track where the new head will be located?

The hobie 16 was originally reefable. The points were in the middle of the second panel from the bottom i think. Your plastic tip will make for real trouble reefing. Maybe you should just make a pigtail, flip the boat on the beach and lash the head to the mast so it won't pull out of the plastic track.
If you make a new mast, the supercat has a good locking system that will accomidate 2 halyard locks. the hook is at the base of the mast inside the luff groove. A second swage stop can easily be installed on the wire halyard.

yep

Hello,
Here is a photo of my Hobie 16 with reefed main. (We still pitchpoled in this configuration, but it was out first time sailing) The reef point is 44" lower than the normal spot.

Jack Hoying
Fort Loramie, Ohio
Prindle 18 #1645
http://www.bright.net/~jmhoying/sailing/prindle.htm

Good ideas -

Thinking of the Worrell on the Jav ,-small narrow bows and a 33 ft mast ,--downwind in large seas gusting to 30 ---
Help Mr. wizard !! ---{old cartoon }

Seen the 16 reef system ,-like others the tendancy to pull the larger sq top sail out seems much more likely ,-even with an added ceramic or extended length slug added.
Do have a Supercat 15 with the internal mast groove wire halyard , but replaced it with a masthead hook halyard per Supercat retrofit. --wire sail stretch problems ,--hook is a better system .
-The location of the ring Hook down lower sticking out would shread a sail in 30 plus .
Have you ever had the mast shake violently side to side in lesser conditions , the mast rotates from forces side to side ,-
power gybes ,--many other situations . It has to be very simple neat and clean to work like anything else in those conditions .
Funny how the guys with masthead flys ,-gadgets and dohickies like plastic clips for traps and added adjuster lines seem to have everything get blown off the boat in those conditions . --The more things I can take off a boat the better I like it .
The only thing I came up with is to knotch an inlet in the mast track at the reef level desired and reinforce the sides of the mast track with stainless steel with same cut out shape to accept the ring at the mainsail top . The difficulty is then getting inward pull on the interior halyard to pull the ring inward into the reinforced mast track cut-out.
Believe if the sail was lowered all the way ,-the halyard then crossed over and rehoisted the main it would provide suffecient pull in .--Either that or a small seperate halyard line set up to that location to pull the ring into the reinforced mast track groove that would hold the ring in place and in turn top of the larger mainsail .

Think some sailmakers are working on this type of reef system now and may have a better solution .
Proper reinforcing corners at reef points -downhaul and clew locations ,-attachment means and rolling up excess sail area are also very important aspects ,--particularly in 30 plus winds .--
If it is much more than that I,m headed for the beach this time around .

Do we know how to have fun ,--yeeehawww-
This thread probably has the other crazies that love to sail in these conditions .
have fun - sail safe -

I would go with a smaller cut sail for heavy air days.

Usually big air days are gusty and in gust you want the top of the sail to dump the power, I would bet that a reefed comptip wouldnt dump the gusts and the downhaul probably wont bend the mast and dump the power like you want it to...Plus all the above mentioned issues with holes in sails, and customized hook points. A smaller sail might be more expense in the short run, but you will make up for it how the boat performs and less frustration. Or you could hot knife a old sail or a used sail. Cheap and easy.. I used to reef my Dart on heavy air days and it never worked well, the bottom of the sail never stayed rolled up and it big air you dont want anything flogging.

I just used to sail with my fat girlfriend on heavy air days and my skinny girlfriend on light air days.

Bill

that the best idea i have heard.- have another sail with the same height but have the leech cut some percentage. so instead of reefing up and down, you reef across the width of the sail. , brilliant bvining , i am going to the classified section now!

Using a smaller sail is the answer if you know before leaving the beach. But it does not solve the problem if you have to reef your sail to get back from an island after a picnic lunch and the wind has picked up to an unmanageable level.

there is no h17 sail in the classified. i bet the performance of a leech cut sail will be quite different the a foot cut sail.

just a thought. i don't know about your boat, but what about instead of lowering the sail, raising the boom. i know the h16 had a floating boom.