Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark.

No help from the rules, it was a slow down and win scenario. You should have taken his stern.

perhaps, although if I were boat B and saw that, I'd park, too, as long as I had maneuvering speed...

Until a rule expert shows a different strategy, I'd say boat B sailed that pretty smart...

So, Jake, boat A couldn't drive off /gybe before overstanding the mark? Or were you just hoping B would tack away earlier?

That's a good one!

Sure, we could have. By the time we realized we were not going to fetch the mark, we may have better served to peel off at that time and gybe around - or parking the boat, letting him go by, and then tacking. We were just hoping he would tack away - but that was probably a bit naive.<img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" /> The traffic behind, though, wasn't going to make either one of those options pleasant.

Pete, the 20/20 hindsight maneuver would have been to duck him and tack safely on the layline and have starboard, non-tacking, rights on a boat that needed to tack inside the zone - but at the time we made the lee bow maneuver, we could lay the mark and round with inside rights - until the wind shifted.

And that was a winning move... BUT Sailing is Sailing..

The other boat was slightly ahead of you... so you made an agressive move to win.

What did the traffic look like behind you... were you going to find a hole.... or were you going to be screwed no matter what....??

Mind you... everyone else got the knock.... and some would have had to tack for the new lay line as well.

Equally interesting is that you were in a monohull.... your judgement would be different were you on a cat... (luff and tack... or jibe and tack) Switching tactical gears in you head like that just seconds from the 3 bl circle .... tough!

What happened before reaching the zone (the lee-bow) would only matter if rule 17 came into play (which it didn't) What is more important is that the boats were both on starboard tack, overlapped at the zone of a mark that was to be passed to port.

Rule 18 does apply, as none of the exceptions in the preamble or rule 18.1 are met. Therefore, the outside boat (O) is required to give the inside boat (I) mark-room.

If you look at the definition of mark-room, however, you'll see that it says

...mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside of and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room...

. Because boat I was overlapped to leeward of boat O rather than to windward of her, boat O is not required to give boat I room to tack.

Boat I could have gone head-to-wind in an attempt to shoot the mark, or to encourage boat O to tack, and boat O would need to keep clear. Boat O is not under any requirement, however, to let boat I tack.

From the description given, it sounds like boat I sailed into a bad position (albeit by a windshift) and boat O closed the door on her cleanly.

I hope that helps,
Eric

The traffic actually wasn't bad - we could have easily taken his stern and tacked for A without worrying about anyone else had we thought that was the best course of action at the time - we were a gnat's butt from being able to cross him and had positioned ourselves to do it. He was starting to luff up as we got near him. With it being light, I really didn't have a good feel for how much the boat momentum would carry him. I got nervous so I called off the cross. We were pretty much left with the choices to do a hard bear away (probably not a good idea in that light stuff) or go for the lee bow.

If we were a little more decisive with our maneuver, we probably could have bailed out and gotten behind him for the mark without impeding another boat. As it was, however, we waited until it was too late and lost another boat in the process.

With regards to sailing a monohull, I'm thinking about getting more involved in our local racing scene...the luffing/momentum thing was different, but man, there was SOOOO much time to think about the tactics in light air close quarters and you can still maneuver - it's very different. and I really enjoy crewing - it was a lot of fun. We had a pretty good results too.

The other option would have been to tack to starboard as soon as you realized it was going to be a close crossing situation. By tacking early, you would have given yourself clear air and the opportunity to play the shifts. In this particular case, since the wind went left, tacking early would have given you the advantage since you would have been farther left than your opponent when the wind went left.
It sounds like you may have been trying to get out to the starboard layline too early. In monohull racing, you're often better staying away from the laylines for as long as possible in order to be able to take advantage of wind shifts.

sm

I've read the '09-'12 rules and it seems to me that we were just sunk. I don't think boat B owed us anything. The Mark Room rights gained by entering the zone with overlap looks like it evaporates when either one of us tacks. Then it becomes room and opportunity to tack (which we wouldn't be able to give since we were so close) and port / starboard. His proper course was to tack for A-mark but him tacking just short of the mark is a reasonable

proper course

expectation. I think we should have started working on an exit at the point we realized we weren't going to make the mark.

Could we have luffed him into oblivion before we reached A and make him uncomfortable to the point that he would have to tack? It may have taken us both down by letting the traffic behind catch us AT the mark - so probably not a maneuver I would have tried in that instance...but it may be a thought. Can I tack under and inside another boat and proceed to luff him inside the zone since neither of us are fetching the mark? I can't say that this has ever been a real possibility on a cat because you usually get rolled right away when you tack under someone.

We were maybe 10 to 20 feet from the zone around the mark when we tacked to starboard and entered the zone shortly after engaging the lee bow - I wouldn't say we tried to lay the line too early. It was lake sailing at its best. It would not had made sense to tack earlier and intentionally just short of the layline.

After the wind shift... How long did you have to salvage the situation... ie before you got to the port lay line and all hope for him to tack had turned to despair and you had to jibe around..

Could you have escaped without giving up the boat behind you by luffing and then tacking astern of him ... hopefully for a hole.....

Even so... it soundsl ike a luff and tack would have saved you a bit of time... on handicap

hard to say - 1+ to 2 minutes from tacking into the leebow and reaching the mark/point of no return...maybe?

It is amazing how Hope can freeze your decision making process.

At best... you could have followed him around the mark... at worst, you lost a few boats.

I can just see a Stuart Walker stem winder piece explaining what HE would have done in the two minutes....but did not do...

Eric, thanks - I had missed your post. That confirms what we thought was the case (and how we acted to keep clear of the other boat). Basically, we put ourselves in a hero-or-zero position and probably should have reacted sooner to minimize the impact from the zero position we found ourselves in.

If stuck in the same situation in the future, I would probably fall off sharply to get enough separation to tack under his stern. He would probably follow suit and blanket us by tacking with us to port and then I wait for him to tack back for A with us falling in line on starboard and behind....which is better than losing position to a 3rd boat.

I've screwed that situation up so many times I automatically opt for going below if there is any doubt whatsoever.

Could you not have luffed him up forcing him to tack?

I see this a lot in protests, usually at kids regattas, where a port boat will insist that they were

ahead

because they

almost

had enough room to cross. They often miss the fact that they're a tack behind, at best, even if they make the cross.

Fortunately, at least you didn't have that misconception. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

Tony, Yes... he could have luffed to head to wind (time and opportunity allowed)... but he was hoping the other guy would let him out of the box with a more favorable outcome for him. Hope springs eternal in that situation... (don't ask me how I know)...

Jake ... would a slow luff to head to wind (giving room and opportunity as you approached the port layine have encouraged him to go a bit early? and get you both through the traffic? (You are not sailing cats after all.... so this kind of move could work)

Possibly - I'm still a little unclear if I had rights to luff him...I think I did...any thoughts?

Luffing rights

(a term I dislike) are controlled by rule 17. It says

If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course...

Here is where the lee-bow part of the story becomes important. While the boats were beating to windward on opposite tacks, they were not overlapped (see the definition of overlap). When the port boat passed head-to-wind, she was either ahead of or overlapped with the starboard boat. The pivotal point is that boat I (inside) did not establish overlap with boat O (outside) from clear astern. Therefore, rule 17 does not apply and Boat I may sail abover her proper course.

In short, as long as she gives boat O room to keep clear (see rule 16.1), Boat I may luff up to head-to-wind at any time. She could have done so before or after reaching the zone. It's a legitimate tactic to persuade the windward boat to tack away.

I hoope that helps,
Eric

It does - thank you.

So.... does anybody have any secret on how to do this move in a cat...
the luff going head to wind must be slow enough to give the boat on your hip time to respond... but.. I usually stall out... meanwhile... the other boat is prepared to tack and just tacks smoothly and walks away..

In catamarans in light air, it's much better to overstand slightly than to short tack at the mark. So - don't get into this position. Port tack boat ducks stbd's stern, goes a boatlength or two, then tacks. Now they're on stbd's hip and in a controlling position.

If you end up in that position, the last thing you want to do is stall out. Slow down, let the weather boat roll you, then tack.

In catamarans, it's almost impossible to force someone on your hip to tack - as long as your boatspeed / pointing angle is comparable. Obviously, if you can point higher (and still keep up speed), then point until they get sucked into your bad air. But that takes a while.

This has gotten long and perhaps someone has suggested this idea....

Just cross his bow and burn him.

Go back to your original story - you are on port but can't clear the starboard boat without

fouling

him. Why not go ahead and cross his bow? You hold your course for the time it takes for him to make the protest and you sail on long enough to get back to windward of the layline. Now do your 360 penalty turn (very quick in a monohull) above the layline.

This seems faster than what you did,

We had to bear away, gybe, come back to close hauled, run for a short bit on port, and then tack back for A (naturally, after letting some traffic by that was coming in on starboard).

Better yet, since you're right at the mark anyway, tack back onto starboard and wait until after you clear the mark to do your turn. If you wait until you round the mark (as lead boat) before doing your penalty turn you could sail above the mark and do you're turn in clear air, clear of traffic, and you'll foul the air of any traffic as they round and head down and try to launch spins. However, since you were first around the mark you might only lose the one place to the boat you fouled as you do your 360.

Sure, my way is a foul but my way took FAR less time than yours. Racing is to win, not to lose. Doing a penalty turn is playing by the rules, too. Saying you're sorry is better than saying congratulations.

OK, my flame suit on. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

I suppose, it isn't what I would do.

David, I'm sure one of the judges will reply shortly, but I can think of at least 3 rules you break with that mindset. Rule 2 is one of them.

Since you're wearing the flame suit... I hope you travel with a lot of rum, although it is unlikely you'd have anyone wanting to hang out and drink it with you if this is your normal approach to racing.

Mike

Not long ago we had a boat destroyed because of that mentality.

The port tacker refused to give way, the starboard tacker hit him. Port was dsq'd starboard was written off as a total loss.

Interesting thought - but that direct approach crosses an ethical line that I prefer not to cross for good sportsmanship...i.e., knowingly foul the other boat. However, if I'm looking at that again and I'm 50/50 on whether or not we can make it, I might just weigh the consequences resulting from each option a little harder.

Also keep in mind, the penalty turn in monohulls is usually a 720 degree turn.

Take another look at rule 44.1,

Taking a Penalty

, specifically rule 44.1(b), which says

if the boat... despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire

. If the advantage you get by breaking rule 10

On Opposite Tacks

is insignificant, why do it? If it is significant, then the turns don't exonerate you - you must retire.

Also, reread rule 44.2

One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties

. It starts

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible...

. You cannot wait until it is convenient to take a one or two-turn penalty. You must do it right away.

And, Jake is right, the penalty for a breach of a rule of Part 2

When Boats Meet

is usually two turns, not one. It may be customary for the SI's to change this penalty to one turn for catamarans, but if they don't, even cats must do two.

I hope that helps,
Eric