Shared Starts at Tradewinds

I'm not sure that what you are asking is different from normal. And I think you have got it backwards. Rick has ALWAYS combined multiple classes in the starts at Tradewinds. He does it to reduce the number of starts and also to make it more fun for fleets that don't have many boats.

It is only if a class specifically does NOT want to be combined with another class that they ask Rick if they can have a SEPARATE start. That only happens if there is some compelling reason for it.

It is very nice for the F16 class to invite other classes to start with them, but Rick probably would have combined the other classes in that start anyway.

It sounds like the only difference is that you are asking the race committee to take times on ALL the boats in each start. If that is the case, my question is: Why? What is the purpose?

Why, certainly it's a desperate search for ammunition for the trash talking machine gun of the F16 class! (which, by the way, is apparently a fad). <img src=

alt=

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The F16s didn't coin the

midget boat

phrase. With the exception of Matt & Gina, you guys need to be more concerned with Curry anyway! <img src=

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We are only making it known that we would like for any fleet of similar characteristics to start as a single group. We value the larger fleet racing and will not be asking for our own start. If other fleets do not know that this invitation is open, then they cannot petition to be a part of it.

The ultimate decision obviously rests with the PRO/RC. There have been times in the past, maybe not at Tradewinds, where many small starts occurred, time between races was very long, etc. I was hoping to avoid that as much as possible.

I am not asking that all times be taken, only times in a large combined fleet (potentially large, may not happen). If an OD/Formula fleet chooses to race on their own, then they do not need to be timed.

I apologize if it came across as being self serving.

Les (Sparky),
But timed results are only valid in terms of boats that are all racing on Portsmouth (against the clock).

If you have a start that involves one-design class(es) (racing against the other boats within their class) and also Portsmouth class(es) (racing aganst the clock), and you take times on all the boats in that particular start, it is like comparing apples and oranges.

The Portsmouth boats only have to worry about strategy to get around the course in the shortest possible time. The one-design classes also have to worry about tactics, which can often result in them taking longer around the course than if they did not have to worry about things like covering their opponents even if it takes them to a side of the course with less wind and slower speeds.

So how would the times be relevant in terms of Portsmouth handicapping?

I think there was one year where the F16s started with the other classes, but sailed the inner course vs the outer course. I believe the F16s prefer to sail the same course as the other spins.

However, I would prefer not to start, or sail, with the F16s, and I would ask that their course be set on the ocean side vs our side, and that they not be allowed to eat at Hobo's either. Thats is unless Pete doesnt show up, then you guys are cool.

Okay, I'll stay home.

Thanks Brian and Pete! LOL! Sure wish I could be there, but am counting on all of you for great reports! Bri, any video coming?

Yes, we are going to be experimenting with the Brian vs Chuck cams.

I think we need another installment of

Inside Cat Racing

as well. Finally get to bottom of what JC is doing in his room late at night to make him so fast. I mean, is Kenny polishing his head with canuba wax or what??

Inquiring minds want to know!

I'm in for straight up racing. My only sugestions was that because it is midwinters for the class and a Harken seriers race a separate class score be tracked as well.

It makes no sense to put boats of drastically dissimilar performance together on a start. (Waves vs I20) If they have the capability to be in the same ball park, then we are doing ourselves a disservice to separate into a million splinter groups. If I am on a course, I am judging my performance by those around me whether they are in the same boat or not. There are people I will most likely not beat no matter what boat I am on, but that does not mean I don't try. There is a range of ability in all of the classes and has nothing to do with the hull length. The good teams are going to win the start and the bad teams are going to get rolled by somebody.

I'm comming down for the party anyway so all this is a little moot. Sailing is a social thing for me. I do not get money for this, but I do have competitve nature so on the water I will try to beat whoever is close to me. We do not have enough numbers to be elitist. You sail together, you have the same stories about what happened to who afterwards. There are no huge fleets of C fleet anymore. New sailors coming in are having to race with guys with years of experieince. If the last place I20 team has a great battle all weekend with the last place F16 team then who cares if they are not in the same

class

, it was good racing and they probably both learned lots.

M2C

Matt

You're the Mattador from now on.

I just want to make it clear that I do not speak for the F18 fleet. If both the F18 fleet and F16 fleet are down with this arrangement then let's do it. But, I'm not at all interested in sailing straight up against the N20's.

Wuss

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alt=

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Stank, dont even make us start in on you, your pathetic attempt to hook up as crew buys you nothing.

P.S. I might need crew for Tradewinds. What you weighing?

My vote is if we get 10 or more F18s then we should race as our own fleet. It is our mid-winters and we should be scored as our own fleet. Also, I'm not sure if a separate start is required for the race to count for our class rankings (Ding - any idea?).

My thinking is that if you want to race with the F18s then get an F18.

I'm not a fan of Portsmouth racing and prefer to avoid it as much as possible. That is a big reason I race an F18, because we typically get good turnout of boats.

Now, if F16s want to race straight up then maybe I could be talked into that.

One problem with clumping boats of different speeds into a single start is that you may have fewer starts, but you end up waiting longer for everyone to finish.

What freaking Olli said!

I'll have to check with Tracie about the scoring I suspect that might be an issue.

I think the main invitation given out the F16 class to all SIMILAR performant boats was lost somewhat in the thread.

This invitation is the result of my proposal to invite the F17 (nacra 17's) to the F16 fleet (our fleet). By this time the F16 class has enough boats at the tradewinds regatta to demand their own start. The US F16 association has decided NOT to excersize that right because it does not believe this to be in the best interest of US cat sailing or even in the best interest of the F16 sailors.

Certainly on my accord I feel that it is just plain silly to have 2 nacra 17's compete in the open Portsmouth class when these boats are so similar to the F16's that it will be alot more fun for all to welcome them to the F16 fleet. This is what lead to my proposal of inviting the Nacra 17's to race the F16's on a first in wins basis. Call it a challenge to Bob Curry and friend to show how much of a FAD boat the F16's really are.

After discussing this proposal in the US F16 class Tom Shannon came back to us with an even wider invitation. So not only Nacra 17's are welcomed but all catamarans of comparable performance. I intepreted this as an invitation to both the Nacra 17's and F18's to form a single fleet that races on

first in wins

. A bold move by the US F16 association as indeed the F18's have their midwinters at tradewinds, but still it was felt that an invitation should be truly open to all. And so it was announced.

There was of course another element in Toms invitation and one that confused many of us. This was the point that it may be enjoyable if all boats of similar behavour were groupped together. This would put the I-20's and N6.0's in the fleet with the F16's and nacra 17's because all are pretty close together in speed. This may indeed be a little open minded for most US sailors. But the this part of the invitation stands.

Still I personally feel that the invitation to the nacra 17's and F18's is the most important one as those boats are truly very comparable around the course and can race first in wins with a

crate of beer

price to final winner.

So Nacra 17 sailors what do you say ? Bob ? F18's ?

Wouter

He's a buck eighty, you can swing that! You might have to pull the strings on Sunday, you know how delicate he can be.

I'm relatively certain that a separate start is a prerequisite for it to be scored in F18 standings.

Well, I guess I butchered this whole discussion.

We are talking about starting together, but being scored as fleets within that larger start. While on the water I would try to race everyone head-to-head, but would like to apply D-PN to see how correct the numbers are. If we wanted to add the extra layer of scoring everyone on Portsmouth then we could do it and supply USSA with some good data on making better handicap ratings. In this scenario, the F16s, F17s, F18s, N20s, etc. will remain in their original fleet status, but share a start line, race course, converstation afterward, etc.

I certainly understand that if the F18s have a huge fleet or their nat'l association wants it (which they are apt to do on both counts), then they'd want to start alone. No problem here. I was really trying to get the fleets of 5 or 6 boats with SIMILAR sailing characteristics to join in.

That's all I was trying to say. Clear as mud. I'll shut up now.

No problem with that at all. A large fleet of Formula/OD that is hosting a Midtwinters/Nats/Continetnals has that right. It may very well be mandated by the NAF18 group.

I'd lose too many sailing days when I do not have a crew ready to go. I do not have the luxury of having dependable crew. My problem, not yours.

The speed differences of the boats in question are not very large. Ok, I'll really shut up now.

I also agree with everything Olli said. I could see a lot of bad results of these 2 classes being started together but scored separate. I have a lot of time and money committed to sail in a fair F18 regatta.
If the F16s want to race in the same class I may also be able to convinced but no way i'd go for same start and separate scoring.
-Todd

Just curious

Exactly How many NAF18 Regattas were there in North America with 10 boats or more in 2006? How about 5 boats?

I will bet that the Hobie Tiger Class had better turnouts and more events that reach that modest bench mark then NAF18.

So... if you spent a lot of money....you probably aren't getting your money's worth.

If its so important to have an absolutely pristine race course... no traffic, no waiting, etc etc. Buy a venue and race committe and run events just for the NAF18...
Tornado's do this... So do the A cats!

You should be able to do that for a 100 bucks a day per boat... (This is where your money should follow your mouth)

God forbid the slow boats go first... Why... they would be in the way... How could you have fair competition with a hobie 16 in the way heck... i know... they should tack away so that your race is not compromised!

My point is.... to stop standing on that soap box and telling the gullible that the NAF18... is the greatest thing since sliced bread and nobody should be in its sandbox... or shudder, be scored with the F18'. This is laughable... and sad!

PS... for the purposes of the Portsmouth ratings... they only need the first F18, the First F16 and the first n20 elapsed time around the same race course.

The rest of the scores are for the sailors to see how they are doing against the fleet.

Not that it matters, but at the 2006 open Tornado nationals in Sweden (which had participants from Sweden, Norway and Denmark), we shared the start and course with the F-18s. No problem, just more boats on the start and the course. Great for socializing on shore.
We drove for 15 hours to get there, and ripped a Gran Segel spi, so it was pretty expensive. Did not matter tough..

Scoring was of course separate.

My concern is mixing sailors with different skills not boats with different speed.

If you are sailing in a fleet with skilled sailors you know what to expect in tight situation, but if have have sailors that can't handle the boat or are unsure about the rules you will run into problems. Hobie used to have a, b, c fleets where you could start you sailing career in c-fleet and then gradually upgrade to higher fleets. It is no fun to start with your roboust Hobie 16 in a fleet with expensive and fragile carbon boats....

/håkan

Holy smokes. How did the arguement:

Hey if we have 10 boats we'd like our own start

turn into -

The F18 is the greatest thing since sliced bread

Thats a patently F16 assertions 😛

Mark,
Last year at Tradewinds 16 boats raced... there were more who opted not to race because of the heavy wind. So there were over 10 boats and I think it was worth it.
Last year I raced a Tiger with my friend. The format last year, with F18s having our own start was great, I had a blast, and it was definitley worth every dime. Rick did an amazing job getting races off with minimal waiting and preventing traffic. I don't mind waiting, traffic or etc, I just don't see a reason to set up a race with extra traffic at the start and most likely, as a direct result on the rest of the course. I don't remember you there last year so what gives you a right to give your input on this topic.
This year I am chartering a Capricorn because I am a broke college student who can not afford a F18 just yet, let alone a Tornado or A-Class. But I thought I was going to have a lot of fun, and probably get in some good racing against 10-18 other boats so I figured it'd be a good way to spend my money.
For someone who tries to promote youths getting involved in sailing so much you did a really good job of making one feel like crap.
I simply tried to give my input, I feel your post was completley uneccessary and unappreciated. Does the argument that some people think F18s are the greatest thing since slice bread have any place in this discussion? It seemed like a simple discussion to me reguarding an aspect of a regatta which you did not attend last year, aren't attending this year, and I doubt you've attended in the past.
Glad to know your so concerned though.
This discussion wasn't about mixing classes in general it was about one specific regatta. I don't care about what people want to do in general but I am pretty sure that the purest form of racing would be one design/ one class starts.
If you want to have this arguement then start another thread which I won't get involved in. If you wish to discuss anything with me further please PM me. I am normally passive and don't get involved in redundant arguements but your post just pissed me off.
-Todd