Taipan vs. Nacra17

Go Tiapan or Blade...

Blade Specially having the designer in AUS.

Flying cat,

I will give a more detailed reply to this post on the F16 forum.

For now I will leave it at :

A link discussing the Nacra 17, FX-one and F16 by a guy who has experience with all named boats. Note that the Taipan F16 and Blade share the same mast and rig (The standard Taipan 4.9 has the same mast but noticeably different cut mainsail)

And my comment that I rate the Taipan as the more desireable boat out of the named two. Mostly because of its rig. The feel of it and the performance.

Wouter

Robi,

I am putting in my order for a Blade F16 with Matt. Would it be possible for us to talk and can I give you a call?

You may remember that I had communicated with you earlier. We used to live on Arvida in Weston and have been recently relocated to karachi, Pakistan for a 2 yr assignment with my company...We really miss Weston!!!!

Please provide me with your telephone number and the best time to call this weekend. I would really appreciate listening to your experience as the first Blade owner in Florida.

Regards,
Asim

It's certainly true that the Taipan weighs about 100kg, rigged - 98kg cat rig and 104kg sloop rigged if I recall correctly.

The boats are weighed at nationals and as far as I know the claimed weights are accurate - our 4.9 is now getting quite old and is just an average T4.9, but we have to carry weight to get it up to 104kg.

Check your PM box. I sent you my number, so we can chat.

Quote

Blade Specially having the designer in AUS.

There seems to be a lot of iterest in the blade. Did they get that dialed in yet? How much dough $$ are we talking about for a new blade in AUS anyway?
Thanks..

I'm pretty sure they will put whatever sail you want on it. The square top is performing a little better I guess. How do they compare going downwind (with spin.) not just in speed but also in handling? Thanks

Flying cat,

On the F16 webpage there is article dealing with the race results of the 2001 Australian Taipan Nationals.

Here the weights of all the participating (and measured) boats is given.

I will send you the link in the private messaging service provided by this forum. Reason, if I give the link in this post then 100's of readers will start clicking on this link and overload the allowed datatransfer limited. Causing our F16 webpage to go ofline. If anybody else is interesting in this data, it is available by following the "F16 articles" link on the F16 webpage and looking for the "optimal taipan crew weight" article. In this article a link is given in the header that will take you to the used data points. An option is to private message me and I will send you the direct link back.

Wait, let me try something else !

Worked ! So here you all have the measured data.

In summary :

The fleet contained 35 (measured) boats (all Taipan 4.9's) ranging from Aus007 (was then over 10 years old) to Aus230 (which was then 1 year old);

The average boat weight was 104 kg exactly, with a standard deviation measure of 2.3 kg's (for the mathematically educated people on this forum). For the less educated persons out here this means the average weight of all boats was 104 kg with 70 % of the other boats being within 2.3 kg of this value (both lighter or heavier). The lightest boats were 102 kg or less (4 boats) and had to carry lead to get up to 102 kg. The heaviest boat was AUS 015 and it weight 111.3 kg; it looks like this was a home-build ply-epoxy boat. Mind you the owners are allowed to change, add or replace items like ruddersetups themselfs on these boats, also these boat maybe home-made by an amateur so these things can quickly account for additional kg with respect to boats straight from the factory.

If only all catamaran classes would publicize their measured data in the same way, right ? Would make choosing the right boat a whole lot easier.

The current class minimum weight for the Taipan 4.9 is 102 kg in the sloop rigged, doublehanded setup. It is my experience that factory build boats, that are build after 2000, are between 102 and 104 kg. Often depending on which extra's you ordered with the boat. Independent handicap systems like Texel and SCHRS (ISAF) all measured these doublehanded/sloop rigged taipans to be between 102 and 105 kg of weight. Taipans that are singlehanded are always a little less in overall weight, typically about 2 kg's, because the jib and related hardware is not on the boats. Some taipans that are exclusively sailed singlehanded carry a different mast section which is lighter as well; these boats are often just below 100 kg (min class weight for these = 97 kg).

I don't think that the sailpower is very comparable between the two boats unless the Austalian nacra has increased its sail area from 13.68 sq. mtr. to 15 sq. mtr.

Wouter

You really have to ask for it but then indeed, you get any sails put on it that you want. Personally, I would sooner NOT by the boat if it wasn't fitted with the newer optimized (F16) sails then buy it as a standard Taipan 4.9. The difference, as Carbonatecat wrote, is just that much. Mostly however in the feel. A standard Taipan rig is still fast in the right hands, but in my opinion it just takes more skill to get the maximum out of it.

I personally dislike the standard Taipan jib setup and much prefer the selftacking jib setup (= F16 but also supplied by AHPC). It is actually the most important "special request" after adding a spi that I advice, followed by the more optimized mainsail.

Speed. Like I said, the biggest difference between the standard Taipan mainsail and the new (F16 based) mainsail with larger squaretops is the feel of the rigs. The last are easier to get going, in my personal experience. The larger square-top makes twisting of the sail easier which allows the top of the rig to keep driving better when going downwind. The whole rig is also alot more lively in its feel. Sheeting actions result in very noticeable difference in speed and feel. I think this to be an advantage, however the other side of the coin is that the wrong trim will hurt you more. But then again, you really feel it is the wrong trim as well, so you know about it.

Others mention that the larger squaretop depowers more automatically then the old rig. Making continious sheeting less necessary when you have found the proper general trim for the conditions. It is also said that the boat accellerates more and heels less as a result. I personally did not sail with the standard rig often enough to really confirm this comparison. I can only confirm that the rig indeeds wants to go and hardly heel when trimmed right even in significant gusts.

In all out speed, I feel that the old standard rig (without a spi) is not much slower in straight line speed in stable wind conditions. I do feel that when the conditions become more challenging that the newer shape sails are favoured. But don't expect a huge speed increase. When sailing downwind with the spi I don't expect much speed difference between the old and new mainsails. Mostly because the spi is provide by far the bulk of the drive on this course anyway and we assume these to be the same. I do think that the newer mainsails have one advantage here though. The improved self depowering behaviour of the newer mainsails allows you to set and forget the mainsail much more than the old main when singlehanding with the spinnaker up. Also you can better maintain mainsail the leech tension on the mainsail thus supporting the mast under spi load while the large squaretop still maintains some level of depowering in the gusts.

In my personal opinion the newer (F16) suit of sails (and selftacker system) are better in every respect than the old standard setup, however in some aspect the difference is bigger then in others. Most of the really noticeable difference is in the feel and ease of trimming. I think that all out speed (in stable conditions) is one of the area's with the smallest difference. Of course automatic depowering and ease of trim can really add speed in unstable conditions.

That is my opinion.

Wouter

I heard the US build versions (made by vectorworks marine) from now onward come from a new mould. This mould was made after learning a few new building tricks from other catamaran builders. I heard they are using a different foam material now as well, plus some other stuff. So it looks the glass/vinylester design is getting dialed in.

With respect to the rig and hardware, I think we can call the design dialled in by now. Glenn Ashby (Ashby sails) has now made about ten sails for the Blade design now and his design is now in its 3rd iteration. Of course Glenn has made even more F16 sails (for Taipans as well) and he based his F16 design on earlier experience with the Standard Taipan mainsails. In real life sailing the Ashby sails are very much welcomed by their owners, even the Blade designer himself said that he was very pleased with the feel and performance of the Ashby mainsails. I haven't tried them myself yet, so I can only relay what others tell me. I did sail against a boat with Ashby sails and it certain didn't feel like my competition had any disadvantage. If anything I was the one with a disadvantage, I personally have a Redhead F16 mainsail and a Goodall selftacking jib. My squaretop is 600 mm wide, standard Taipan 4.9 = 400 mm, new Ashby/Goodall/Landenberg mainsails have a squaretop op about 850 mm wide. I have a mainsail of the second generation (2003)

Similar comments are expressed by owners of Landenberger and Ullmans sails, although the number of these owners is still limited. From Singapore we hear very positive noises about the newer Goodall mainsails. That is in relation to the older standard Taipan Goodall mainsails that nearly all of them were using on their Taipans. They also have a few Ashby sails overthere now but we don't really have good comparison data on that, not enough time has passed.

If you buy american and ship is across the point then you are looking at 12.800 US$ + 1500 US$ (rought estimate about shipping) = 14.300 USD = 19.450 AUD. However, in your case I would by stuff like sails, mast and Ronstan hardware locally. This both save you shipping costs (shipping the mast is expensive) and I think sails and hardware is cheaper locally in Australia. But you just have to look into that youself.

There is another option for you as an Australian. There is something going on in Australia at the moment, something I'm not at liberty to discuss in public. My advice is to contact Phill Brander yourself at phillbrander(at)bigpond.com and ask him directly about acquiring a professionally build Blade F16 in Australia and see where that leads you.

Wouter

I, too, am comparing the Blade and the US N17r. I go back and forth and usually come to this question: Are they really comparable? If I wanted a pure singlehanded boat, the the N17r is the choice - if I wanted the option of a tuned doublehanded (and singlehanded option) then the Blade F16 is the choice? Correct???

I know the Blade can be sailed singlehanded, but is it truly optimized for it? I want a boat that does both well.

Are there any plans by Stealth to push their F16 more in the US?

Tom
Here is some of my research on the Nacra 17 (USA)
length is 17’ 5”
width of 8’ 2.5”
mast height 28’ 9”
main sail area of 160 sq. ft.
spinnaker 15.5 sq. m.

The Nacra F17 seems to be only sold in North America, with the carbon spar from Southern Spars of New Zealand. This model is also the most popular
carbon mast 30’ 4”
Main sail is 170 sq. ft
Spinnaker 15.5 sq. m.
Spinnaker 18 sq. m. ( Class Racing Crew 230lbs & Up)
Mid pole snuffing system

Both Nacra models were built as a true single handed cat, not to be confused with the Australian N17, which is a 17’ design as a sloop. There’s a nifty jib option for the 17
But not legal for class racing.

Christopher H.

I have the following numbers supplied to me when I was investigating getting a Nacra F17 over from the USA, these were current Aug/Sept. 2005:

Carbon mast 30’ 4” - not 100% sure on this. I was after the mainsail luff length for our rating rule.
Main sail is 170 sq. ft
Spinnaker 19 sq. m.
Spinnaker 21 sq. m. ( Class Racing Crew 230lbs & Up)
Mid pole snuffing system
Weight 135kg

And to make things more interesting, take a look at the specs measured by the independent organisations of the Texel and ISAF rating committees

www.watersportverbond.nl/data/AE1_numdet1_18-9-05.pdf

www.schrs.com

They differ once again from the spec given earlier by others. With the EU N17's having 150 sq. ft sailarea

Wouter

To FlyF17,

With respect to the Stealth I can only advice that you contact John Pierce about that yourself. Stealthmarine(at)tiscali.co.uk

The last bit of your statement assumes that the alternatives to the F16's are TRULY optimized for singlehanded sailing. I know that such claims are often expressed by various sources but I'm not sure wether in direct comparison these claims are indeed validated.

Personally, I only call the A-cat boats "truly optimized for singlehanded sailing". All the other boats; FX-one, Nacra 17, Hobie 17, F16's and what not are all less then truly optimized for singlehanded sailing in the way the A-cat is.

A different question is wether a particular design lends itself well to be singlehanded or not. Here the criterium is less stringent and more designs are able to claim this.

Everybody has their own set of criteria of singlehanding, so I shall indicate on what I judge the different "to-be-singlehanded" designs personally :

-1- Ability to right the boat unaided and with simple means
-2- Ability to handle the boat off the water singlehandedly (unaided)
-3- Ability to handle the boat on the water singlehandedly
-4- Ability to perform well on the boat singlehandly
-5- Ability to race the boat well in modern fleets of fast (spi)boats
-6- Ability to adjust the layout of fittings and controls to personal preference under class rules
-7- Ability to fit the boat with aftermarket parts of independent suppliers
-8- Factory support network
-9- Robustness and resistance to abuse

Both the nacra 17 and FX-one score big on points 3 and 8; But do less so on points 1, 2, 6 and 7. Points 4, 5 and 9 seems to be somewhere in between.

With respect to the F16's I can say that these score pretty darn well on all points with the exception of point 8. The last is simply because the F16's simply don't have the larger dealor support networks as the big builders have. That is a fact. Point 9 is surprisingly enough not the weak point of the F16. There is less to work with indeed, but for example I've seen the Taipan take abuse that I dare not put other boats through.

In my personally opinion; the Blades and Taipans excel in points 4 and 1/2/3 because of their well tuned controls and light weight. Example : My cascading 1:12 downhaul allows me to really crank on the mainsail luff with just my left hand (I'm right handed); I have yet to see a similar system on many of the alternatives. The boom setup of the F16, never ever hangs up and operated smoothly all the time. Over the years the FX-one and nacra 17 has altered their designs to similar systems. So indeed the three designs are converging, thus making them all more comparable. But it must be said that the F16's had all this stuff from the vary beginning, meaning in the Taipans case as early as 1989.(and that is not a typo). In time I expect more stuff to appear on the other boats as well. Stealth F16 is leading the way with the T-foils on their rudders.

So in direct comparison I personally value my own F16 over the alternatives of the big builders. With one of the big builder products I have quite alot of experience and I wouldn't want to trade boats with it.

If you are asking me wether the Blade is truly and fully optimized for singlehanded sailing then I will answer that it isn't while stating at the same time that neither the other boats like the FX-one and Nacra 17 are. All named boats have made compromises that took all away from the true optimized setup that the A-cats are.

If you are asking me wether the Blade is less suited to singlehanded sailing then the other alternatives then I will say, "certainly not, if anything I regard it as better." In one particular comparison I'm absolutely sure as I have more then sufficient experience with the involved boats.

Sadly, I don't have much personal sailing experience with the Nacra 17. I only sailed a few times against a nacra 17 and the fact that we never saw eachother after the start is almost exclusively caused by the fact that our sailing skills were nowhere comparable. So I really don't have a proper data set with respect to the nacra 17. My current data suggests that there is a significant performance gap in favour of the F16's but I really think this to be to strong a conclusion considering the limited data I have. Also I have no personal data on the US nacra 17 which I fully expect to be faster then the EU versions.

Well, you can only judge this properly yourself. And you really should do that. But I really do think the Blade F16 to be better than the others in both uses. I know that my own Taipan F16 is in comparison to the European versions of the FX-one/Nacra 17. And the Blade compared again favourably to my Taipan F16. And I found that I'm not alone in this See this posting

I can fully confirm what Carbonated wrote when looking at the Superwing mast to the FX-one mast. But I can't do so for the nacra comparison as I have not sailed one myself.

In my opinion the F16's do both roles very well, maintaining a lead to the other boats mentioned in both uses.

But really, you should go out and arrange a test sail on the Blade F16 and judge for yourself. You will know it immediately, at least that is what I'm told by the others who did before you. Don't take my word for or that of others. We all love our own boats. Get straight to the basis and test drive it yourself.

Ohh, actually we have a former A-cat owner (Boyer mark 5) in our F16 pool now and he commented that the Blade is frightingly close in feel to his former A-cat. He doesn't feel at all as if he has made a noticeable step down by selling his A-cat in order to get an Blade F16. I'm sure that if we measure it really well that there should be a step down but it is not obvious at all. This in turn is a pretty good achievement in my book as teh F16 is also a fine doublehander while the A-cat is not. So in the F16 class we have been able to strike a pretty good compromise.

If you want then I can bring you into contact with this former A-cat owner. You can ask him yourself. Or you can go to thsi posting of him were he writes down himself the things I mentioned above Blade compared to boyer A-cat

There is another test sailing report here : Double handing the Blade F16 By Tim Bohan, a Florida based cat sailor and well known contributor on these forums

I can quote many more test-sailors with similar quotes and experiences. The blade boat is indeed well received as a design.

But don't take our word for it, see for yourself and get a test ride.

Wouter

Wouter.

The SCHRS rating is for the EU Inter 17. We don't have one in the UK, Thus no-one has measured it, thus no rating.

The Texel one is the old (heavier) Inter 17R at 151 kg.

Simple as.

That's close, the large F17 is smaller than the 19sm Formula 18 spinnaker. Of course these sails are coming from Skip Elliott Loft.
Not sure any Nacra F17 (US versions) have ever been sold outside of North America.
Ted

As a sailor of the Inter 17 I have to answer Wouters comments in relation to the boat and so provide answers from someone who has 5 years of sailing the boat.

-1- Ability to right the boat unaided and with simple means

If it's windy enough to tip it in you can get it back up again. Yes, if you tip it over in a F1 you WILL NOT right it on your own.

-2- Ability to handle the boat off the water singlehandedly (unaided)

Yep the Inter 17 is not the lightest boat in the boatpark.

-3- Ability to handle the boat on the water singlehandedly

Yes agreed, the Inter 17 is a challenging boat to sail. It rewards the fit and skillful. Many people ask what it is like to sail and I say that - Ask Bob Curry!. I'm not as fit as I should be, but after 25 years of cat sailing the skill (I hope) is just about coming along ok

-4- Ability to perform well on the boat singlehandly

I Refer to my answer to 3

-5- Ability to race the boat well in modern fleets of fast (spi)boats

I have many people moaning that the Inter 17 is one of the quickest single handers down wind and no slouch in a 2 up fleet either - Big kite, wide to allow you to power it up and long with deep bows to allow you to keep the boat powered up. It does (in EU I17 guise 13.4 sqm mainsail) suffer a little upwind in the light stuff.

-6- Ability to adjust the layout of fittings and controls to personal preference under class rules

You get a set of plans (or you should do) with the boat, and that is how it should be rigged; However, there is nothing to stop you changing things for non class regatta's - As I have. As long as you don't add sail area, reduce weight etc, the rating stays the same.

-7- Ability to fit the boat with aftermarket parts of independent suppliers

Harken not after market ?
You do not have to buy your rope, wire (and running rigging) or blocks from Performance. Hulls, Mast, beams, Plates and Rudders you do (to stay as an Inter 17)

-8- Factory support network

Not great in the UK, but it is there if you need it. Also the Web is a wonderful thing

-9- Robustness and resistance to abuse

Oh FFS. Elsewhere you have a go at Performance for over building their boats and now you say they cannot take the rough stuff, or sail in the big stuff.

Rubbish. All the performance range (not seen an A2 so cannot comment on that) are very well build and last for ages. My 5 year old boat is still going strong, had a "proper" clean up last year and people were asking if I had a new boat.

My opinion on the Inter 17

So you are in agreement with me.

In addition can a 75 kg person still right the discussed boat unless it is really windy ? If you are doing the wild-thing you may find that you can easily tip a boat in conditions qualifying as less than windy.

Also I hold all boats to the same judging rule, no exceptions, and it is beyond a doubt that the different boats score differently on this criterium.

I don't know about that. The EU I17 has more singlehanders sailing in front of it then behind it; don't know wether that still is sufficient to earn the qualifier "One of the quickest". I'm sure the newer versions like the 17R and sorts are noticeably faster and I always mentioned that.

Were did I write that the I-17 was "bad" in the way of "Robustness and resistance to abuse". I never wrote a thing like that. That maybe your reading of my post but I never wrote that down, nor intended to. You can't fault me for this.

Wouter

Sorry so you can or can't right the F16 single handed wind or no wind?

That question can only be answered when we know your body weight.

Wouter

Hola FLying Cat,

...well, I watched long enough..

...happy holidays to all my cat friends,...both sides of the pond...

....as you know, we sail all year round in the Caribbean, but our regatta season is starting now, Aruba was the first,..and we run up until after Easter......there are more regattas that a working man can go to,..so, you pick th ebest venue for you and your boat.

...so, a F17 is CHEAPER than the Tiapan?

...wow....

...how do they do that?

...is this the new F17?.....carbon mast,...redesiged d-board ( read....shorter,..see, Nacra read Catsailor forums too..).....new boom,...and all?

..ok, big question Flying Cat,......what is your wind and waves like?

..I am assuming that 'down under' you are not lake sailing in 5 knots and 1 inch waves,.....yes?

..here, it is 15-25 mph, and waves 3 feet +/- 1 foot(,..in the ocean, 3 foot wave is 3 feet up to crest, then another 3 feet down, to trough,..so, 3 + 3 is 6 foot verticle drop, ok?). I will do a 4 footer, and a 5 footer ( maybe) if I cannot avoid it ( certian reefs and shallows or currents will build some monsters, I identify the area and stay away). Waves 6 - 10 ( which is verticle dimension of 12 - 20 feet) forget it,...the boat can take it, but I can't, I go in. For example, in these next 4 months, it is our windy season. The equitorial trade winds blow 24 /7. It never stops day or night. This week, it is 20-25 mph. You may laugh, but if the wind is under 12 mph, we do not rig up, but say, 'we will go sailing tomorrow'...:-)

..ok,..so to me,...IMO,...and this is no one elses opionion,..I have family, a job,...and I love to sail in these conditions,....and I must come back alive every time!

...so, for me,..it is NOT the fastest boat in perfect condition,....it is the boat that can be safe,...be fast,..and consistant winner ,..when all factors are figured in..

..ok?..

...pick what you like,..after all,..you will be sailing it,...not me!

...Scooby,...Wouter and all,....are great helps and have helped me out 100%,...so, listen to what they say,....no BS,....sometimes there is 'sabre-rattlin', but, in good fun,...I dream of the day we all could be on a start line and go at it..

...for example, I have a 2000 I 17,...heavy by todays standards,....but,..she can fly in 20-25 mph,.....and destroy 3-4 foot waves in full throttle,....the only option I highly recommend is Front foot straps ( mine are at aft end of d-board well),....for, at that speed,...and motion,....there is no way you will stay connected to the boat! The 'down' hull is airborne 50% of the time, for as you exit a wave full throttle, the boat 'flies' for a second or 2, then attack next wave front and the entire bow disappears up to the front crossbeam and boat launches out again,....it happens in a wink of an eye...all full speed,..it is amazing what these boats do in the ocean,...for 17 feet 6 inches is not alot of boat in the deep blue!

...just so you know, I sail 'open class',..the I -17( with 150 s.f. sail..smaller than stock) beats I-20, N 5.8,.P 19MX, Tornados to upwind mark in aforementioned wind/wave conditions,....they hate it,..I love it.

....of course, Wouter,.John P, Scooby, Sparky...sail by Ogletree and articles by Asbey taught me how to dial the boat in,..the info and help is out there,..but you have to pursue it

...so,..buy any boat you want and get wet mon!

Bruce
?-17 Euro ( I, then N, now F...)
St. Croix
US Virgin Islands

Yes, I can get my boat back up in around F4+ (which is the the only times I've tipped it in). I am 76kg last time I checked.

Can you get a F16 back up in all wind conditions with a 75kg person ?

Are you sure about that?

I took the numbers from this years Texel list - the most up-to-date list of handicaps I could find and here it is (all boats rated with Spi):

M18 Texel handicap = 91
A cat Texel handicap = 94
Supercat 18 sp Texel handicap = 96
N 18sq Texel handicap = 97
F16 Texel handicap = 99
N Inter 17 Jib Texel handicap = 101
Taipan 4.9 Texel handicap = 101
Bim 16sp Texel handicap = 102
H17s Texel handicap = 102
N Inter 17 R Texel handicap = 102
TheMightyHobie18 Formula single handed Texel handicap = 104
N 5.5 SL Texel handicap = 104
H FX1 Texel handicap = 105
N Inter 17 XL Texel handicap = 106
Shadow Texel handicap = 107
N 4.5-1 Jib Texel handicap = 109
Nacra 16vm Texel handicap = 110
N Blast Jib Texel handicap = 110
N Inter 17 Texel handicap = 110
Topcat K2 Texel handicap = 110
Freestyle 474 Texel handicap = 111
H17 Texel handicap = 111
Prindle 15s Texel handicap = 113
Supercat 15 Texel handicap = 113
Topcat K3 Texel handicap = 113
N 500 Texel handicap = 114
Dart 18 Texel handicap = 115
Windrush ss Texel handicap = 115
Dart 15 Sting Texel handicap = 116
Coolcat 15 Texel handicap = 118
Dart 15 Texel handicap = 118
Piranha 15 Texel handicap = 118
N 4.5-1 Texel handicap = 119
N Blast Texel handicap = 119
Seaspray 15 Texel handicap = 119
H14s Texel handicap = 120
Prindle 15 Texel handicap = 121
Speedycat Texel handicap = 121
Topcat F Texel handicap = 121
Catapult Texel handicap = 122
Dart 15 S Texel handicap = 124
Hawke Surfcat Texel handicap = 124
Pixie Texel handicap = 124
Windrush 14 Texel handicap = 124
Dart 15 Sting without jib Texel handicap = 125
H14 Texel handicap = 130
Maricat Texel handicap = 130
Paper Tiger Texel handicap = 130
Merricat Texel handicap = 134
Hobie 13 Texel handicap = 138
Newcat 12 Texel handicap = 139

So F16 is 4th, Inter 17 Eu is 19th from a list of 49 so I think you will find that there are more boats behind the Inter 17 Eu spec.

And that is simply numeric.

Source of the Texel numbers is here

I have no information about the price with all the upgrades.

We don't get the big waves 1-2 meter swells not much surf. Winds 5-30 K

That question can only be answered when we know your body weight.

96 kg. 190 cm. thanks!

The alu masted F16's can be righted by a 70+ kg person in ALL conditions. In F4+ the required weight is less. Carbon masted F16's can be righted by a 60+ kg person in ALL conditions. In F4+, again, with less.

So the simple answer is yes.

Personally I think that rightability should be defined as the ability to right a boat unaided in all conditions. I tipped the boat in windspeeds below F4 (14 knots) when doing the wild thing or when flying a spinnaker and making an emergency crash to avoid a ugly collision. I think that saying that you don't capsize a boat below F4 is a bit like asking to get yourself in a problem situation. It will happen, maybe not often, but it is going to happen one day. Often sailors say well, I only push my boat in races and then there is always help around. That is true but you get a DNS when you receive help during a race. Also I hear from several sailors that they are holding back as a result, something they don't appreciate. I fully support the claim that there are righting aids out there that solve these issues, but still I consider ease of righting one of the more important specs of a catamaran.

With respect to the other point. Are we seriously comparing the singlehanders like I-17, FX-one, A-cat, F16's etc with boats like the Pixie, freestyle 474, Windrush ss, Piranha 15, Maricat and Merricat, to name but 6 ?

C'mon Scooby.

Of course I was talking about the serious alternatives, not every boat ever build.

You made a statement.

I checked the facts of the statement. Your statement was wrong.

Hola

...see, we need to all get on the start line and go at each other in the water...

...pick your boat,....go full throttle,.....winner takes all braggin'' rights!

...IMO,.....and this is Bruce at 52 years old and a svelte 230 pounds DRY......In big waves,..I cannot right my 17,...no way,......for, as I get the mast to lift( no problem),..in I go into a trough and the mast goes down( big problem)...ugh!

...I do not know about other boats, for the 2 man boats do get up ok,....so, it must be me..

..I do not separate myself from the boat,..I stay on the boat,......I have floated away before,......and could not catch up,...no way........that son-of-a-gun sails fast on its side too!

..so, my answer?....I do not flip,.....

...you say,...'how do you do that?'..

,..solo sailing is 110% concentration all the time,....you watch everything every second,......you will have to train your self,.....or re-train yourself,.......the skills of 2 - up will not do on a solo rig....

....and it is good strategy not to flip,...why?....you loose all the ground you gained, and have lost your lead,...so, it make no sense to flip..

...when I race in open class,...and an extreme gust comes thru the course,...I just watch the jib boats go over,...one by one,..they get wiped out,....I just focus, pinch, focus, pinch,....and make my way thru the carnage and go on my way,....race over,...all I have to do is finish!...see?

..get a boat,...get wet,...so sailing.....ahoy!

Bruce
?-17
St. Croix
USVI