This one is for the kids.

Doug, I bet she wasnt driving and working the main... Thats why Im saying Optis, then cats.

I'm not so sure.

We need something to compete with the 29er at the point when kids change up from the Oppi / Topper.

I went Topper and then Dart 18 crew at 11 and helming a Dart 18 at 12. BUT the 29er did not exists then. I still sailed Toppers in the squad as we

had to

; but that was Saturday's sailing and then I did

proper

sailing on Sunday on the Cat.

If the 29er existed, I could have seen me going that route as it does look cool. I went the Dart 18 route because it looked cool (and this was 28 years ago).

Phil knows what he is doing. I'm sure the platform will be stable and he has enough width to make it so. and with enough purchase, sheeting should not be a problem. I think we to try to come up with a CAT to get them young. NOT try to change then after they are already a mono sail. That is what we need to revive the sport.

Just my 2 cents from 27 years of doing this.

Doug

Damn! Gimme 2 of those! Now you are talkinf serious attraction.

Good points. Most of the safety concerns can be solved with good engineering, like rubrails, righting pole, some reinforcements in the right places, etc.

This size cat would seem to be too much for kids under 12, but only when sailed singlehanded. Just put two on board the beginers version, with a small sail (quite easy with a freestanding rig) and it might take the startup monotype monopoly from the Optimist.

In fact, one could argue that two up is safer than one up: when one is incapacited the second can help; one steers while the other trims the sail; docking is easier; racing does not become an entirely zero-sum game (cooperation with the crew is required, together with competition with the others - which is a better training to life itself), etc.

(A digression: to what extent the fact that the only startup boat available (the Optimist) is singlehanded could be responsible for turning sailing competitions more agressive, non-cooperative and feeding grownup classes with athletes that see everything as a zero-sum game? I guess it deserves a specific discussion topic.)

Anyway, I think it can be a great startup boat for a couple. Maybe it will require slightly different teaching techniques, but there's no reason to limit its use to kids over 12.

Another bonus is that sold as a two up under 12 startup cat, its price, maintenance, rigging time and other parent enslaving work must be compared to that of two Optimists. It makes this cat clearly a better buy than two Optimists, be it for two siblings, for a couple of friends, mother and son, mother and daugther, cousins, sailing schools, etc. And we know what the kids will prefer...

Lastly, after the kids are hooked, this cat will remain a great boat for them at least two years longer than the Optimist. For some girls it will last for their lifetime.

It's a great boat and a great concept!

There is definatly a place for entry level monos like the opti. Kids need a very forgivable boat to learn on when they are 6-10 years old and have never tried to harness the wind.

Then.... the next logical step?

This made me chuckle. The point you're trying to make is perfectly fair, but I'm just imagining explaining to an anxious parent that yes of course your child may become incapacitated while sailing this boat but that's really quite ok because they'll have someone else there to get them back to shore. <img src=

alt=

/>

Probably poor choice of words, the way that I read it was

busy

doing something else.

I know, I'm sure you're right - I was just amused by the image it brought to my mind. <img src=

alt=

/>

WOW! Phil those are beautiful! Dave, If your son can sail the H 14, he will think these babies have power steering! Hope someone starts building them! Nice work Phil! Mike, Just because we have plans to have Hunter skip the monos, don't think we'll let any harm come to him!

The rudder system looks a lot like the newest boat in the Nacra line (I don't know the name). It is a roto boat with skegs and a similar steering system.

Funcat

maybe?

those are beautiful miniature performance cats

for those that are worried about kids ramming each other with them there is always these

http://www.minicat-uk.com/

With respect to the right pole. The design that Phill shows in his artistic impression won't need a righting pole for persons over 40 kg, irrespectibally of the conditions. The latter means that a 40 kg person (or heavier) can right it even in flat water and no wind.

This does assume that Phils design uses a plain alu mast and rig setup as given in this posting :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthre...ge=0#Post124554

I've already run the full body mass and length data on the F12 design that is very similar to Phill design and these are the results. Using the US demographic data, a 12 year old kid (both male and female) weight (on average) 41 kg. Beyond 15 years of age both will weight AT LEAST 40 kg.

A crew of two 8 year olds will also weight at least 40 kg combined; on average two 6 year olds will already put in that weight.

My basic point here is that we should start looking at real scientifically derived numbers and less to what we feel is the case. The scientific numbers show that the Blade 12 (and F12) designs are pretty well suited to these young teenagers and even crews of 2 made up from smaller kids.

Wouter

I personally think the spade rudders are a mistake. A little bit of heeling will pull the luff rudder out and force all steering on the single leeward rudder that will vent very easily because its area is so close to the surface. But it gets better when the boat puts its bows in a little. Now the leeward rudder is easily lifted clear of the water thus making the boat loose all steering.

Basically each time when you need steerage the most, the boat takes away increasingly large portions of it.

After having done the numbers I found that a 0.500 mtr deep rudder (less then 2 feet) is enough for a boat of this size. I think kids can easily stand in water that is just over 0.500 mtr deep, there is no need to allow the boat to be sailed in water less deep then that. But more importantly you don't want them to sail the boat in deep less deep that that. Again, when they put their bows down they will quickly reach to 0.5 mtr depth. And you don't want them to hit bottom with theur bows during a dive as that will most definately have them pitchpole or capsize violantly.

US demographic data show that kids (both male/female) over 6 years of age are AT LEAST 1.00 meter tall already. Kids of 12 years are already over 1.40 mtr. As such they can stand and survive in water no deeper then 0.75 mtr (6+ years) or 1.00 mtr (21+years). As such I see absolutely no need to NOT have plain rudders that stick only 0.5 mtr below the water surface. This negates the need for any spade rudders.

Indeed they tried this setup (spade rudders protected by the skegs) on the Funboat and the reviews were devasting.

Wouter

Folks,
I'm not saying this will replace the Optimist.
Everyone see this type of thing differently.
What I will do is explain how I came to this point.
I must apologise if this post is too long. I try to keep them short so as not to take up too
much of other peoples time but in this case thought I should explain how I got to where I am
with this concept.

I presided as Sailing Master and Head of the sailing school at a local sailing club for a number
of years and observed the folowwing when introducing young children to sailing.

In the beginning of my teenier we were using Hobie Hawks as training craft for the beginners.
As far as I can make out they are very similar to the Optimist mentioned, both in size and
sail area.

We would run adds at the beginning of each sailing season and get a very good roll up of prospective
young sailors but would quickly lose most of the students with only a couple staying on for the
season.

Finally my own children were old enough to learn the art so I took them along. It was not long
before I was having problems getting them to go along, I was going to give up when someone
donated a 12 ft windrush Surfcat to the club.
Once my own kids had a sail on the surfcat they were hooked.

As you could imagine this had me quite intrigued. So I discussed the matter with both
of them. They told me the same story. They did not feel safe in the Hobie Hawks because they were so tippy and in addition to this they were slow and boring. Depending on conditions they felt scared or bored.

So we got a couple more Surfcats and as we did we found the kids fighting over them and returning every week provided they got a cat to sail.

Despite popular belief they did not run into each other.

We set courses for the very young beginners in water they could walk. So if they had
any problems they could just walk to shore. Once they felt comfortable they we would
move them out into the centre of the lake and finally into the senior afternoon racing.

Anyhow the result of all this meant I got my sons a cat each.
This created another problem. Every time I went sailing I had to rig 3 cats as they were too small to rig their own.

This is where I came up with the idea of a super fast cat to rig.

When you compare the Specs of the Surfcat to my design they both run the same beam but my design is lighter , has a shorter mast and has less sail area.

The pics posted to date are renderings of a computer model. Florin heard what I was working on and approached me to help where he could . The pictures are a product of his excellent skills in applying rendering to the computer model. He has really brought the concept to life.

Now while from my own experience I believe something like this could make a difference.
There is no universal fix and we each have to do what we can to turn things around until something starts working.
Some things work for some people but we need to find out something that will work for most people.

I'm hoping that my efforts will help in catching those fish that used to get away.

Totaly agree, my 7 year old daughter is very much like yours, where as my 15 year old son, hated the feel of even just bobbing around a bit in very light wind with small speed boat chop. Now, put him in a powerboat with twin 250+HP motors at 80+MPH (yes, we very much trust the pilot of the boat) and a chance to to throw water balloons at his dad and crew, that is a different story. He just did not like the unstable feeling.

My fault, my fault. Please rewrite that stuff for me, we need to convince parents, not to scare them away.

This is not the first time I distort a message with insuficient language arts skills, after all it's my third language. I'm trying to improve, though.

Thanks!

It is impossible to catch all fishes, but today we are catching too few, so this is a great step in the right direction.

Anyone interested in a new cat class for kids should also take a look at the F12 forum as well. Phill's Blade 12 seems to be F12 compliant.

The group has many goals, but I like to think that the most important one is to equal or beat the Optimist and Laser as startup boats. All cat classes and manufacturers will benefit.

Take a look here.

Wouter:

I have skeg keels on my Mystere 4.3 and have no trouble controlling the boat EVEN when flying a hull. I still like the daggerboards. It would get them ready for the newer boats.

Doug

Doug,

I was talking about the spade RUDDERS, not the skegs.

Wouter

Thanks Brian, we're down to five years now...

Phill, thanks for posting that. It seems that you are targeting an early intermediate market, or at least, somewhat older kids (although you don't mention ages, you do say that the kids you had in mind had been sailing various boats for a few years).

Seems that I might be the only one who thinks it's a good idea to design a cat for six-year-olds...

Mike

Mike,

I had in mind 7 to 12 yrs old. Although this would vary depending on the child, conditions and level of supervision.

We had children as young as 7 or 8 on the Surfcats and this was usually their first boat. The mast was 3 ft taller with 20ft more sail area.

Regards,
Phill

Having not owned a boat with skeg keels (I don't think the H16 counts?), I don't really have anything to base this on, but what about a kick up centerboard like the H17's have? Not as good as a high aspect dagger but then the kids could just drive it straight up the beach that way.

hey phill,
please don't apologize for being wordy and taking up our time.&#12288;i for one feel much better spending my time on line seeing the results of real people like yourself and florin who share their time and talents so unselfishly than being stuck in front of the tube that alternates between crime and fantasy. The 1st makes you overly worried about going outside and living while the 2nd tends to belittle whatever accomplishments you achievement

my kids are 6 and 7 and so far on my 420 they have been either bored or scared with the result that they haven't wanted to come sailing much

but they thought my new cat was dead sexy and begged for a ride. unfortunately it was a bit windy that day so they ended up lying on the tramp clutching the main beam while waves broke through the tramp yelling SLOW DOWN

such a hot little cat in their scale would tickle them pink much the same way as having quality furniture in their size does

who was it who said,

people sail to have fun and i've yet to find anyone who found it more fun to go slow than fast

Yeah,

Oh Crap! My kid was just incapcitated while sailing a CAT? I knew I should have stuck with a Laser...... (NOT!)

I've placed one of these renderings on my desktop and looking at it again, I'm quite certain...this a brilliant little boat. I want to build one and I don't even have any kids!

Erice,

Florin has made some really cool pics from the computer models.

When my web site is up I'll post all of them along with the pics that show the building process as I move through it.

Once the boat has been prototyped and proven to my satisfaction I'll get pics and video of it sailing, for those who still find the hull building daunting, I'll look at getting the hulls built professionally and shipped pretty much at cost to anyone who wants to build one up.
If we can capture the kids early and get them onto cats it will make me happy.

Just the way it is.

Regards,
Phill

It seems many are very interested in these small cats. We have been working on these over at the F12 forum (on www.catsailor.com) for a quite while now. Some examples are given in the attached pictures.

So I would like to invite everybody to come join us overthere and help get these designs finished and the class around them formed.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Formula12

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/125943-Blade12artisticimpression.jpg" alt="" />

Wouter

Jake, if you have the time and want to build one, do it, I'll buy it from you for my kids! I just don't have the time to do it myself. OR...I could just send you my kids! <img src=

alt=

/>

Won't the tie-bar hit the mainsheet when hard over? Or is it far enough forward of the mainsheet to give enough steerage?