After reading some of the Sailing Anarchy A Cat Nationals foiling thread, it occurred to me that if we (we as in, future catamaran development) are going to go down the road to foiling, how should the classes be divided up?
I mean, we have always divided the classes up by their designs, One Design is just that, but for the box rule classes, or the Development classes, if you are going to allow foiling and then design a straight up foiling boat, does hull length matter once you get up on the foils? Is a foiling 16 footer just as fast a foiling 20?
I would think the only thing you would want to 'design' is the lightest platform capable of holding the foils and the mast upright.
I guess each box rule class could keep the same limits on sail area, minimum weight, etc, but it could go a new direction in hull design.
So will future 'catamaran' designs go in that direction, once the class rules are modified to allow full on foiling?
Would/should there also be measurement limits on the foils themselves, such as foil type, size, placement, actuators, that type of thing?
The moth class is a great example of this transition already taking place in an established displacement class. However, I don't think the moth class was that large prior to the introduction of foiling but there are distinct parallels with the statements and positions of the current a-class sailors
foilers have their conditions
,
they won't always be an advantage
, etc. etc.
I think we all want to go faster, that's why we (most of us) left monohulls for cats in the first place. I'd love to 'foil', even race a foiler, once it all gets sorted out.
I'm just trying to look ahead to see if there might be some unintended consequences coming in the way of designs, if full on foiling is approved.
I guess we can sit back and watch what happens in the US A Cat class in the next two years, since they basically said that's what they are going to do. Is there a better hull shape to hold the foils? I was thinking they might want to move the foil boxes further forward, perhaps in front of the main beam, to prevent the hobby horse effects we see today.
Seems to me that putting the major lifting foils further up front would prevent a lot of the nose dives. If you move them forward, you could share the load with the rudder foils too.
Of course you'd then have to engineer a way to lift them up, unless you just leave them down and park in deeper water, like the Moth guys do.
Ahhh, Bill Roberts
Shared Lift
concept he used for the ARC 21. A bitch to tack though. It is harder to tack the 8.5' boat with shared lift than the 12.5' boat without.
foilers have their conditions
,
they won't always be an advantage
, etc. etc.
But at the end of the day the floaters are a knife at a gun fight. To entertain the idea of running foilers and floaters together is at the very least is misguided. I think the disruption caused by this injection of technology will take a toll short term and the arms race will keep a significant number of us on the sidelines until the dust settles, if it ever settles.
As a potential downside, crashing a full foiling A-cat at 22+ knots is going to leave a mark on both the boat and driver and let's be honest there aren't a lot of kids sailing A cats.
I'm just trying to look ahead to see if there might be some unintended consequences coming in the way of designs, if full on foiling is approved.
I guess we can sit back and watch what happens in the US A Cat class in the next two years, since they basically said that's what they are going to do. Is there a better hull shape to hold the foils? I was thinking they might want to move the foil boxes further forward, perhaps in front of the main beam, to prevent the hobby horse effects we see today.
Seems to me that putting the major lifting foils further up front would prevent a lot of the nose dives. If you move them forward, you could share the load with the rudder foils too.
Of course you'd then have to engineer a way to lift them up, unless you just leave them down and park in deeper water, like the Moth guys do.
Timbo,
The problem with that is that in order to have stability and control as you transition through lifted flight and non-lifted motion, the main lifting elements need to carry a large majority of the load...just like an airplane. If the foils are moved further toward the ends of the craft (sharing more lift between the boards and the rudders or the wing and the elevators), the dynamic changes in lift as it transitions states is wild and difficult to control. This was one of the (re)discoveries that the America's cup campaigns discovered...they had to put the boards near the CG of the boat - otherwise it would porpoise wildly when it tried to get into the air and was unstable while transitioning. It is the same reason that the main wing element on most aircraft carries almost all of the weight of the plane.
Thanks Jake, btw, have you seen some of the Burt Rutan designs, with a lifting canard up front and the main wing aft? He originally designed it that way to 'share' the lift, and to make it stall proof, because the canard will stall before the main wing, which then lowers the nose/angle of attack.
Check this one out:
https:/
And here's a smaller one for a homebuilder:
https:/
Here's a look at
The Whisper
a two up foiling cat, looks like it's using those Moth type rods to adjust ride height, and this was filmed on very, very flat water. I wonder how it goes in waves and chop?
https:/
How about a foiling bicycle?
I think I'll take a ride around the lake:
https:/
Here's a slightly different take on pedal powered foiling, looks interesting...in flat water.
https:/
I think I'll take a ride around the lake:
https:/
Here's a slightly different take on pedal powered foiling, looks interesting...in flat water.
Like to see that in amphibian mode....
Check this one out:
https:/
And here's a smaller one for a homebuilder:
Oh, have I? 😉 I've been a fan of the LongEZ and VariEZ since I was 16. I have a rough RC model that I bought at an auction a long time ago but never put together. Having later put myself through college rebuilding mazda rotary engines, the thought of building my own LongEZ with a rotary engine was quite a dream for a long time.
I remember seeing a monohull racing boat, about 40'(?), that put the rudder in the front to share the lift, but it was supposedly a b!tch to drive straight. I think it did OK in a couple races but the idea obviously didn't catch on.
Anyone remember the specifics on that boat? I saw some pictures in magazines at the time, but it was about 20 (or more) years ago so I've long since forgotten most of the details.
What If
someone put the 'rudder' foils in front on a cat, and put the larger, J type foils a little further aft, I wonder if that would limit the hobby horsing? Of course the steering linkage might be tough to work out!
Eagle 20 36.8knts
Speaking of Whisper.
Another T foil set up. Seems to me with this design a small recess in the hull could be done so the board could be pulled up flush with the bottom of the boat enabling the boat to hit the beach without damaging the foil. I know the rudders are still an issue but one miracle at a time.
Anyone remember the specifics on that boat? I saw some pictures in magazines at the time, but it was about 20 (or more) years ago so I've long since forgotten most of the details.
What If
someone put the 'rudder' foils in front on a cat, and put the larger, J type foils a little further aft, I wonder if that would limit the hobby horsing? Of course the steering linkage might be tough to work out!
It turned into a patent nightmare. If I remember correctly, they had a trimable trailing flap on the keel fin too and some sort of arrangement with both a fore and aft rudder. I know there were lawsuit threats but I don't know if it ever went to court.
Schock 40. I sailed on one. Also had a canting keel. Wicked fast on a reach, and very hard to steer. Several had the keels fall off and it sort of killed the class.
Are uou talking about the schock 40?
Edit, too slow
+1 on going faster, but only to the extent that sailing still remains relatively easy. If it's going to be like racing a unicycle down an ice luge track, no thanks.
+1 on going faster, but only to the extent that sailing still remains relatively easy. If it's going to be like racing a unicycle down an ice luge track, no thanks.
And that is the rub. Sailing is a giant pain in the a$$ and every time it's made more difficult to go a little faster we lose members from the water. This impact is always lost in the noise created by the hype of
new tech
. Then we always ask ourselves what is happening to our numbers like there is some invisible force keeping people away from sailing.
You can look down your nose and the monohull classes but they are still getting some very respectable numbers on some serious relics and appear to be having a great time.
Keep raising he skill level required and increasing the price of admission and our pool will continue to get smaller and smaller.
+1 on going faster, but only to the extent that sailing still remains relatively easy. If it's going to be like racing a unicycle down an ice luge track, no thanks.
And that is the rub. Sailing is a giant pain in the a$$ and every time it's made more difficult to go a little faster we lose members from the water. This impact is always lost in the noise created by the hype of
new tech
. Then we always ask ourselves what is happening to our numbers like there is some invisible force keeping people away from sailing.
You can look down your nose and the monohull classes but they are still getting some very respectable numbers on some serious relics and appear to be having a great time.
Keep raising he skill level required and increasing the price of admission and our pool will continue to get smaller and smaller.
You're starting to sound exactly like Mark Schneider. Congratulations. No one has to get a foiler, so there's no need for anyone to quit. By your logic ,we should all be on Hobie 14s or Aqua cats. You'll start digging it in 10 years (if you make it that long), it took you that long to get into real distance racing.
Todd
Hobie 14
Hobie Wave
Hobie 17
Isotope
F16 Single hander
A class floater
A Class ISAF Flyer
A Class USA Franken Flyer
Plenty of cat sailors racing all of these boats. They all still have NA's. Dave's point that constant change is not good for participation is supported by the fact that these old classes are still going well.... and for cheap!
However,... you don't see any Catnips, Woodies, Boyer 4s in the floater class.... Why? the other old boats are still racing?
Dave nails it...Set aside sails.... if every year... you need to inject 4K in equipment upgrades to stay with pack.. The flush rate will be high...
Only the A class has seen value in splitting into three classes. Why?
If I was unable to accept change, I would sail an Optimist.
There's a pun in there somewhere.
- There's a pun in there somewhere.
I once considered designing an adult-size sailing pram with comp-tip, hobie-bob, padded rails, flotation bags, self-bailers, and kick up centerboard and rudder. I was going to call it the
Pessimist
.
Pessimist
.
wait... I thought you were describing the Wave. Which has a huge following ... just sayin'
- There's a pun in there somewhere.
I once considered designing an adult-size sailing pram with comp-tip, hobie-bob, padded rails, flotation bags, self-bailers, and kick up centerboard and rudder. I was going to call it the
Pessimist
.
now THAT's a pun.
What's the latest from the F18 camp on foiling?
There is no camp for that in F18 land. The rules dictate straight boards with boards operating linearly in the vertical plane of the hull profile. Even the inward angled boards were squished several years ago. The boat is also pretty heavy to invest in foiling.
However, the Phantom was an F18 based design that was redesigned for foiling with a wider beam and lighter construction (about 280 to 300lbs).
I don't want an F18 to foil, just wanted to make sure when I get another one that the rules don't change and leave me behind!
Classes come and classes go.
The F18 class is so restricted, by intention, that any investment is as safe as an investment in a boat can be.
I would love to sail on foils. Even if I had to work hard on my own skills to make it foil. That is what sailing is about for me. Working on my skills (and that is fun!)
I dont know about puns there Jake. But I am sure there are plenty of huns making a mess of it <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />
Hobie 14
Hobie Wave
Hobie 17
Isotope
F16 Single hander
A class floater
A Class ISAF Flyer
A Class USA Franken Flyer
Plenty of cat sailors racing all of these boats. They all still have NA's. Dave's point that constant change is not good for participation is supported by the fact that these old classes are still going well.... and for cheap!
However,... you don't see any Catnips, Woodies, Boyer 4s in the floater class.... Why? the other old boats are still racing?
Dave nails it...Set aside sails.... if every year... you need to inject 4K in equipment upgrades to stay with pack.. The flush rate will be high...
Only the A class has seen value in splitting into three classes. Why?
So what you're saying is I should sail what YOU think is good for sailing and not what I want.Sail what you want antiquated or cutting edge, but quit being a socialist/hater about what other people want to do. I guarantee you I have less money than 95% of the folks on here and I have managed to be involved with ANY class I wanted to, from 4 Worrell 1000s and all the spinnaker mods before they were stock to A cats with their evolution.And if I recall you were the douche' who wanted to penalize me with a stiffer portsmouth handicap for having sponsor stickers on my sail, while my true sponsor was my credit card. I don't have the time or effort for y'all's whining. Don't like it, don't sail it, that's why I sold my F-18 and Mystere 4.3.