Tornado have started

At last! I am not alone in thinking that dacron sails are best. If it turns out that our U.S. team does not have a chance of winning a medal, I will be rooting for "Team Dacron," Bundock and Forbes.

I hope BRAVO shows a little more than just highlights of the races. Last night I stayed up 'til 12:30 to watch some sailing and they only had a , maybe, 8 minute blurb and then said "and that's all for sailing" and moved on.

Does anyone know if there is another channel that shows all the sailing events????

By the way, I'll be rooting for Lange and Espinosa 1st, and US 2nd.

They gave the 49ers only 3 minutes--what a shame. I hope they give the fastest olympic boat more air time than that.

Hello All,

Thanks for the post!

I know it driving us all nutzo, not being able to see what is going on.

I suspect one of the teams MAY have a website that will give the race as it happens,.....the cat folks are a pretty innovative and savvy bunch, yes!

If there is such a site, share it with us all.

Any weather report info?

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix
USVI

I think the sailing coverage has been awesome, both in quantity and quality! It would be interesting to know how much air time sailing is getting compared to the other events, but I bet it would be up there close to the top. And that would be amazing, considering that it is probably the most difficult to cover, logistically -- and probably the most expensive to cover, too.

I have never seen such extensive coverage of sailing at the Olympics, and obviously we have Gary Jobson to thank for this.

Sailing is one of the few events (maybe the only one) that goes on for the entire two weeks of the Olympics. I don't know how Gary is able to do what he is doing. His schedule has to be brutal, and everybody knows that he is doing this while battling a life-threatening and very debilitating illness.

They are getting video from powerboats on the water, from some onboard cameras, and from helicopters. They try to feature a different class every day and then also give brief clips from another class or two.

It amazes me how they are able to get all this video and audio from all the inputs, not to mention graphics, and get it produced into what is usually a half-hour program (including commercials) every night.

I have loved watching the 470's and the Ynglings and Lasers and Finns. It's fun to watch the tactics with the monohulls.

I don't like to watch the sailboards where the sailors pump their sails and they look like a bunch of butterflies -- looks more like pain and muscle than smarts.

The Tornados are going to be more difficult to cover videowise, and not as interesting tactically, I'm sure. But I hope we get a fair amount of air time.

Personally, I am more interested in watching the Star class for this last half of the sailing competitions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2...ing/default.stm

In the UK we have been able to watch the sailing live on the bbc interactive service above, click the link and in the top right of the page you can access five feeds and normally there is 1 of sailing about midday GMT so far we have watched the 470s , europes, 49ers, and the whole of the last finn race and i must say it is pretty good coverage and commentary.

I really enjoyed the 30 seconds of the Tornados last night...seriously. After watching 15 minutes of keelboat sailing the boat speed difference was astonishing. I trust Gary will do us right and we'll get our moment!

USA is in second with points tie for first - Go Lovell and Ogletree!!

Scratch That! Lovell and Ogletree are in first place by two points with a bullet and sixth place in two races today! Whoooohooo!

I hope we get some fine coverage tonight!

Mary,

I must be watching the wrong channel! What channel are you watching, Bravo? Last night they had a full half hour of sailing, but nothing compared to all the swimming events. Everytime I turn on the t.v. I see nothing but swimming. AGHH! Enough of that!! I want to see some colorful sails!!!

I'm off to Cleveland.

In a remote control sailboat class, the mylar sails wax the dacron in all cases but one (probably due to shape). That is when it rains the mylar sails repel the water and create drops on the sails and are slow. The dacron sails ABSORB the water creating a smoother sail and kill the mylar sail. So I wonder whose Tornado sails have the lowest coefficient of friction?

http://www.sailing.org/olympics2004/

This link takes you to a composite sailing page.

When you click on a respective race, say race 3, it opens to a nice page with weather, mark rounding positions and results.

If you want to see the course, click on the 'course' ( it is 'up-and-down with a gate x 3)

Looks like weather was under 9 mph ....yikes.

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

Simone Green, Monday, 23 August 2004

Races Three and Four

In extremely light conditions the Tornado fleet contested race 3 and 4 today. Among the eight crews protesting the decisions of the Race Committee, are the Australian's Darren Bundock & John Forbes who posted a 12th and 11th in the days races. The multiple World Champions are in 11th overall.

It was also a tough day on the water for Australia's Tornado boys. Darren Bundock (AIS/NSWIS) and John Forbes (AIS/NSWIS) are currently lying 11th overall after a 12th and an 11th in today's two races.

In a light wind and tricky conditions Bundock and Forbes were penalised in race three, costing them valuable placings. The Aussies were stranded in a path of no wind, unable to do more than just float along. The pair could not get out of the way when a rival crew came through on a puff and called starboard. As a result the Australia’s were faced with the challenge of completing penalty turns in no breeze, a slow frustrating task.

The Sydney 2000 silver medallists are seeking redress, with a protest to be heard in Athens tonight.

Sydney 2000 gold medallists Roman Hagara and Hans Peter Steinacher (AUT) has been overtaken by American duo Charlie Ogletree and John Lovell in the overall point score.

Day 2 - Tornado (4 races)

1.John LOVELL/Charlie OGLETREE (USA) (2,2,1,6) 11pts
2.Roman HAGARA/Hans Peter STEINACHER (AUT) (1,3,8,1) 13pts
3.Santiago LANGE/Carlos ESPINOLA (ARG) (7,1,6,5) 19pts
11.Darren BUNDOCK/John FORBES (AUS) (9,7,12,11) 39pts

Full list of Tornado results here.

Here is a quote from the Yahoo Tornado Forum.

So what do you guys think.

Ogletree,
a sail maker for Ullman in Houston, discovered a new
laminate that is 20 percent lighter than what most
Tornado sailors use. "We created quite a stir in the class,"
sad Ogletree. ISAF ultimately approved the cloth for use
in the Olympics. This edge has helped make Lovell and
Ogletree one of the fastest duos in the fleet. [...]
The new laminate--both film and fibers are made of
Pentex, a polyester derivative--is the biggest breakthrough
in the class since

So, the sails are exclusively available to just 3 teams...

I've no problem with the cloth. It's the exclusive supply agreement
that is unfair in a one-design class, IMHO.

--Glenn

Folks,

Sail Magazine reports that US team Lovell and Ogletree are using a main
and jib where both the fibers and laminate are made of class-legal
Pentex, and which are 20% lighter than the sails other teams are using.
Furthermore, they have secured an exclusive license to the material
from the sole supplier through the end of the Olympics, according to the
article.

It seems to me that this exclusive licensing from a supplier of emerging
technology is anti-competitive and unfair in a one design class and that
the sails should be forbidden under the "Fair Sailing" rule of the ISAF
RRS. I assume that the sails have already been measured and approved,
but I hope someone protests these sails if they do use them. This team
represents my country, I expect them to play fair.

What do you think?

--Glenn

The VCR didn't record last night - did I miss anything?

I just want it to get windy.....Think of the pictures / video there would have been of the Tornado's had been out when it was windy last week....

Concerning the exclusive rights to pentex cuban fibre, it is a lot more complex than press releases imply

This is not a case of having exclusive rights to something you just sew together.

The exclusive rights, is in exchange for developing a way to make a Tornado sail out of pentex cuban fibre. There is not a big market for polyester (pentex) cuban fibre. Most people go for the Spectra version. Only classes whose rules only allow polyester would buy it. And there has never been a big enough demand to develop a small cat sail around the unique characteristics of cuban fibre

The main is molded on a full size 3-d foam mold. I am not sure about the jib.

The 3 training partners split the cost of the mold and the development cost of the sails. The partners were chosen by "people we know, we can work with". Not everyone who was offered a share accepted.

This deal was expensive and there is no guarantee that you wall end up with a superior sail or that it will not be declared illegal. For example, There is also a cuban fibre spinnaker for the Tornado. While class rules allow laminated spinnakers, there is an ISAF rule that allows only woven material. The laminated spinnaker was declared illegal. The ISAF rule was not intended to prevent a class from choosing their sail materials. I think the ITA did not think the rule applied and did not word their rule to exclude it.

The sail cloth is not the only factor here. The sail is being shaped by Jay Glaser. 2 of the 3 best looking sails I have ever seen were Jay Glaser laminated sails. Also as Charlie once said, "the laminated sail is less forgiving than woven but once you learn to use it, it's faster"

This is what I know about the exclusive rights to pentex cuban fibre and I am sure there are other things I don't know.

In addition this is not the only "partnership" out there. The Brits have one about masts and there is at least one other one concerning sail shape.

Carl Bohannon

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I just want it to get windy.....Think of the pictures / video there would have been of the Tornado's had been out when it was windy last week....

Race 5 was awesome... unlike race 6...

Hey Jake,
Tevo really works well and we have not missed a beat. It is really great. It records all night and in the morning we watch what sports we want and delete the rest.
Rick

Quote

Quote

I just want it to get windy.....Think of the pictures / video there would have been of the Tornado's had been out when it was windy last week....

Race 5 was awesome... unlike race 6...

Don't suppose you have it on tape ? (even better if you have it in digital format)

Have to tell you that has always gone on. A clique of sailors discover a faster way and the those not in the clique are left out.
Happened for the 1976 trials. A group got together and had boats built of West System. While the boats measured in (sort of) they were a different design. They would build the hull to minimum specs in one spot, and maximum in another.
The end result was a boat that was not really a Tornado. They had more bow buoyancy, etc.
The boats were finished just before the trials and no one else was privy to the new design. The newly designed hulls and the light-weight and stiffness of the boats gave them superior speed.
The hulls should not have been approved into the class, but then again those in the clique were also strong polically in the class as well.
At the trials, the first seven (only seven made in time for the trials) took the first seven spots.
Not very fair, if you were not in that clique.
Rick

Rick,

I've already gathered that Tivo is in my future - but what I really want to know is did I miss anything good last night!

Anyone who thinks that having an exclusive mast, sailcloth or hull construction is illegal or otherwise unfair doesn't understand the game that these Olympians are playing. In a class like the Tornado developing your equipment is PART OF THE GAME. This is not Hobie 16 sailing we're talking about. When I was training for the Olympics in the 470 the Australian team had come up with a great sail design in the year before the games. Did they give that design away to their competition? Hell no! They were not that stupid. They spent a huge amount of their resources to develop their sails and it would have been vastly unfair to them if the rest of us were able to just buy the sails for a few hundred dollars. Like most every Olympic program we had our own sail development program and were figuring it out for ourselves. The sailcloth, masts ect are the same thing. To those that say this is not a true test of the sailor you are WAY off base. Developing your equipment requires a detailed understanding of what is fast and how your boat works that only the very best sailors in the world have.
The rules are defined before the game starts so that no one has a reason to call foul. Until you can point to the rule that has been broken you are just making slanderous accusations.
If the sails are "unfair" then a rule must have been broken. I challenge Stephen Medwell and Glenn to point to the rule that is being broken and to explain why the class measurers at the Olympics made a mistake in passing these sails.

go to
www.sailing.org/olympic2004/results/news2832.html

This gives a nice report on race 5 and 6.

I can read that in today's races, a wind hole is a wind hole,...and doesn't care how advanced your sail cloth is

...looks like a real interesting regatta,...with 7 points between the top 5 boats...

....by the way, ...go USA and Puerto Rico!

regards,

Bruce
USVI

I tried to tape it but the VCR recorded the main BBC channel, not the interactive one...

Ho Hum.....Oh well.....

Hey Rhody, watch the blood pressure

First, it was Glenn who said something was unfair. Stephen just re-posted some e-mails exchanged on the Tornado forum at yahoo.
Then Carl came with some new information, not available on the Yahoo T liste at the time when the allegations about unfairness was put forth.

If it is correct, that the sails in question are indeed moulded polyester sails. The are legal within the class rules (as I interpret them). The article spoke about "a new laminate", which most of us probably interpreted as a new type of cloth.

Having exclusive access to superior materials (like a new type of cloth) would in my opinion not be fair in a one-design class. Having developed a revolutionary sail design or whatever based on commonly available materials is of course OK. The same goes for Rick's example with the Gougeon cold moulded hulls..

I agreed with Glenn when I read the article, but with the new information about the sails provided by Carl, I would not call them unfair (just expensive).

I sure hope that sails from the mould are made available after the olympics, or that moulded sails are banned in the class. The last thing the T-class needs now, in the middle of the carbon mast 'schisma' is another expensive technology.. If the carbon mast passes the class ballot, new sail shapes will probably have to be developed anyway.

The tolerances in the rules of a one design class should be so narrow that the mast or moulded sail issues never came up.

Carl: Are you sure it is cuban (I presume you mean Cuben) fibre sails based on pentex ? Cuben fibre is a mix of carbon and polymer filaments in my dictionary, which is not class legal as only polyester fibres are allowed in Tornado sails..

Ref: Quantum Sail Design Group

On to something else. I wonder if the conditions the Tornados are sailing under in this olympics are trying for the participants. Looking on the score table at http://www.haveahobieday.com/olympics2004/results/tornadoOverall.asp
shows few consistently performing teams and reports of little wind. Racing in little wind is both a skill and a good bit of luck, in my humble experience..

Rolf

Rolf
There is no way I'm going to "watch my blood pressure" while you guys try and marginalize the accomplishments of two absolute good sports who have worked there butts off for about two decades to get where they are today. The rules may not be what you think they should be, but they are what they are. The important thing is that they are the same for everyone. By definition that is FAIR.

I'm with Rhody. There are two ways to spin this thing;

1)A manufacturer has created an agreement to exclude other competitors from their technology.
2) A group of sailors and a manufacturer struck an agreement in order to share costs and resources in order to develop something new.

I believe the latter is what's happening here - there's no motivation for some huge conspiracy. Why would this sail maker NOT want to sell the other sails to other competitors? Only if you look at the other plausible facts does it make sense; It would make sense for that manufacturer to strike a time limited deal with a group of sailors to test the new sail material since they don't have the expertise on the water. It would also make sense to ask those sailors to contribute to the development in return for early access to the technology. It also makes sense that they would want to temporarily strike the agreement with teams that are reliable, have talent, and resources and as such, restrict the development (i.e. 'test control sample') to a select few in order to gain reliable feedback.

It seems that the Tornado folks to easily consider this class a single manufacturer one design - but is a box rule, and although a bit more strict, very similar to the newer F18 class. Development is important and no rule says that everyone has to share their sail shape development right? Why should the fabric from which it is made be any different - as long as it lies within the rules?

Hi Guys,
Sails made in molds are not new. Back in the days before computer designed sails were possible, some sailmakers made molds to their best guess sail shapes. The sailcloth panels were laid in these molds and cut to fit like a big puzzell. Some of these "molded" sails, as they were called, were fast and other molded sails were slow. It is all tied up in the shape of the mold and the shape of the mold came from somebody's drawing board. All mold cut sails are not fast. The key is in the shape of the mold. Today a good sail designer with a computer can duplicate any mold sail shape. It is possible that the "mold surface design" came from a sail design computer program and then the mold was built to the computer print out contoures.
Bill