Tradewinds venue change question

I'm convinced we're just polishing the brass on the titananic anyway.

Dave, direct this poor boy and his disposible income to the proper channel... Single moms.

I don't have time for them either.

Techically, you don't need a beach, ramps work too.

Mike

Technically they don't in side shore 15 and above , or 10 and above with an A cat(No halyard).
Mike, I think you're throwing gas on the fire with all of your arguing about US Sailing. It seems about the worst time you could have picked also.

Launching from a ramp single handed blows. Given the choice of tossing a monkey's salad or bashing a dock/ramp/moored boat/piling/whatever, I'd have to think things through on that one. Works? Yeah, but it ain't pleasant.

Do you even have a beach cat and or sailed one? Clearly, as Karl stated.....single handed sucks using a ramp! You must have more income then care for your boat when you try to load and unload in unprotected waters with the waves, wheels and concrete ramp.

Forrest I-20

I'm pretty sure he sails a Hobie 16, but that is not the point he's trying to make . That point would be US Sailing doesn't owe us a thing, and how dare we suggest they do something constructive for us. Their busy.

Hmmm... the Bristol RI A cat fleet launches off a concrete ramp.

The Olympic Tornado Fleet launches off the concrete ramp at a public park in Miami.

The West River Galesville fleet launches off an Oyster shell covered ramp....

Just some facts.

Pointless facts, but yes facts.
So You're saying US Sailing is going to get us ramps.Great,almost as good as a beach. They aren't called Rampcats ,now are they. Or are you just being the typical Schneider and arguing just to argue? Well, you named 2 ramps one on each end of the east coast congrats.
Seems Mike had enough sense to leave it alone,but I should have known you'd run in with the gas can and torch. You are your own worst enemy.

Mark,

That's just great, that out of thousands of miles up and down the east coast you can quote a couple of ramps for boats to launch. It's clear by your post and Mike's the elitest attitiude of US Sailing and that they dont give a dam about beach cats! I'm not on this forum very much, but sit back and observe. However it is clear, YOU and MIKE are defending US Sailing which is clearly part of the problem and not the solution. This thread was about Rick and the venue. Not once have I seen anything positive about US Sailing coming forth to help him and or anything to make this event happen. You sit there all pompous, and espout your dogma, and make negative comments of others that question and or differ in your dribble. Why don't both of you, along with US Sailing, either get involved and solve this problem with Rick and help make this thing happen, or shut the hell up!

Forrest I-20

Todd... you continue to amaze.... with all your libertarian BS posting... WHY do you think you are entitiled here...

NOBODY is going to give you a beach or ramp to go sailing. Nobody is going to organize a beach or launch for you either... not the least is US Sailing (which essentially is a big club with some paid staff).

Fact of life... Trade winds has AN INSURANCE PROBLEM.... The property owner will NOT GIVE YOU access to their property because there is a slight chance that events could go really wrong and they could be held liable.

So... you have at least two private insurance company options. US Sailing worked with one company to design the package to cover the full game of sailboat racing.... Then the other company matched the package. (its america! and US Sailing did the job)

Tradewinds Leaders just have to pick one now...

Oh... it will cost you money...approx 1000 bucks.... with 100 boats... that 10 bucks a boat... or 5 bucks a head.. basically the price of a beer. Barb and Chip paid for that coverage in the past... THANK THEM!!!

Every body wants to get paid..... it's America.... Or do you want to change the system? Your libertarian philosophy should be supporting the property owner not free loaders.

Dave... sailboat racing is not like bike racing because of the numbers involved .... cost per head is much less.

MI..

the point of showing you ramps used by single handers is... ramps and cranes are the way many single handed cat sailors get access to the water.... If I don't like the launch.... I drive somewhere else and pay more money for one that I like. Its AMERCIA. You may think ramps suck.... the Bristol A cats deal with it. The point..It's not impossible.. its just a choice.

RE US Sailing don't give a damn... is just bs propaganda.. and you are simply ignorant of the facts.

First..
Do you really think that US Sailing (or any organization) should be running around telling property owners on the waterfront that they ... SHOULD MAKE THEIR PROPERTY AVAILABLE to some one else? Really?

Sailing Clubs are formed.... the members pool their money, purchase property and run the club the way they want. Paper clubs form.... pool their money buy insurance and gear and move around the area and run events.

Stop whining for gods sake nobody is going to do this work for you.

To your exact point about US Sailing and what they do...

I have never owned a Hobie class boat in my life.... I have bashed Hobie policy choices of the distance past more then anyone. So... they call me up last fall... Can you make a Junior NA's happen in Annapolis with their JO's and just before the Olympic games? Me, Ugh... there is a reason we have never had a catamaran event much less NAs in Annapolis proper... we have no club with a beach.
Them... What can you do? It would be good for the sport.. Ok... I agree it would! ... how much time before you need a decision.... Welll it's November.... not much time.

So, our group convinced Annapolis Yacht Club to say Yes... so happens. it was AT THE US SAILING MEETING, THEN we got US Sailing to convince their board that this new to them event would work (two previous years of JO's). We used the AYC name and US Sailing as the national organization to approach a private property owner with beach front to say yes. The Hobie Class Association then made the money to the property owner and the legal and admin details work. It turned into a spectacular event (despite light wind and brutal temps)

The point of the story... It was a partnership between the professionally run YC in my area, their volunteers, the unpaid but true pro's of the Hobie class Association, the actual pro's at US Sailing running the JO program, and the local team of cat sailors from the paper Hobie YC and catsailors from 3 other Yacht Clubs with their equipment.

MI... that is how it works in the real world... Notice the role that US Sailing plays.

Tradewinds decided to move the event to a different property owner (who manages the liability on his own)... If you don't like the new venue and dates.... ORGANIZE and take the insurance option. It's not a big deal... Rick White decided to move. The whole... Loosing beach Access thread was a red herring.

Loosing Beach Access is a LOCAL issue... there is no need for any national organization to butt in...

On the Chesapeake... you loose beach access due to erosion.... The property owner does not like to loose the ground to erosion... so they usually put in rip rap... no more erosion... and no more launch site... The town of Cambridge owned the waterfront park we launched and raced from....(yes we did all of the insurance stuff through CRAC)... CRAC, the Cambridge Yacht Club and the town engineers solved the problem by using their rip rap to build a a little launch harbor.... Families love the beach for the protected swimming and we have our beach access... as a bonus... they added a water tap for us as well.. Priceless!
The key (as is usually the case) was good communication and a great working relationship with the leaders of the town/YC members.

Mark, well stated. We experienced the results of your efforts at Rock Hall, MD for the Junior Olympics in 2010, and watched you help pull the team together again this year at Annapolis. You are to be commended for your support and setting the example on what is needed to continue and help grow our sport.
Caleb Tarleton
www.sailsandpoint.org

Mark you truly are a dumbass if you think I am one to feel entitled . I was pointing out your idiotic arguing over rather ramps are better than beaches for beachcats. You obviously are so single mindedly focused on hyping USS, you missed my point.It's called sarcasm, you seem to attempt to use it enough I thought you might recognize it. I learned many years ago the USS does not benefit me except by making the rules and training race officers. But the way you guys got offended when Dave Lennard suggested USS should work on access issues, says alot.For such a smart guy ,I can't believe how stupid you can be sometimes.

Jeeze, if all that's standing in the way of Founders park is a special event liability policy, I'd pay another $5 entry fee...

Mark as far the bike racing I don't understand your comment. Are you saying bike racing has more participants than sailing so sailors should not be able to get a spot to launch at public ramps and bike riders get government land to build trails on. Our six race bike spring series gave away over 8,000 in prizes and had an average of 60 riders not much more than sailing. Last weekend I rode in a race with 30 riders and they gave away 1,500 in prize money. Please help me understand your comments.
My comment about US sailing and boat access was not to get US sailing to go and buy beach property and provide beach access for sailors, but to help organize get contacts in the government to get sail boat launching at public ramps/parks with the help of local clubs (help get the tools for the job). The decline of beach cat sailing is mostly because there is not good places to launch and the daily sailor just wont buy a boat if there is no place to sail it.
The one thing I noticed about bike racing is that most people really work together and have positive attitudes and support each other because of the love of the sport. If I was new to sailing and was reading some of the post on here I would think what a screwed up group

I don't want to be a part of that

. Lets up our game and work together and give positive comments if you have something negative to say just PM the person.

Me too and we don't really need shirts or some of the other stuff and I would rather get a cash prize than a trophy to make it simpler. Why is the insurance so much the race is on public water and each boat should have insurance?

I will try to be clear for you Todd.... that way you can stop making crap up.

launching from ramps is not my preferred launch... just that many beach cats, A cats, SINGLE HANDED SAILORS do launch from ramps. (one of the largest A class clubs, Hopatcong has a ramp) THIS IS A FACT... So stop making * up about what I wrote. If you don't like the ramp... go somewhere else.

I am not offended by Dave saying... US Sailing should work on beach access... Stop making * up. I agree US Sailing could do something about small boat access... I think Dave would be perfect person to take that job. It is a volunteer organization... step up and make it happen. Don't you have issues with the Outer banks beach access? Maybe you could step up.!

Don't like the US Sailing umbrella... no problem.. join the surf community.... a bit narrow for my taste but... step up and do something.

Just to make sure you get the point of this particular thread... Tradewinds is NOT a problem about beach access!!!.

Stop making other stuff up... I am not hyping US Sailing....I told MI, HOW I used them and for what purpose. He obviously did not know any facts.

The older I get... the less patience I have for half assed clubs that waste my time or BS drivel like this. I think training race officers and working on the rules is extremely valuable...US Sailing does other stuff that organizations need to use as well. Nevertheless, I don't go back to clubs who screw up the on the water stuff... whether they have a PRO with a US Sailing PRO cert or not.

You as an individual can take your boat wherever the community allows you to launch. Back in the hey day of sailing... lots of sailors... equaled lots of launch access.

My nephew rides a mountain bike... All of his local trails have been shut down... the property owners and or the state parks have shut down all but a few trails.

He never talks about A RACE either... Moreover, A RACE is different... You can't just show up like a flash mob at this same public launch, seize beach access and expect the park to allow that.... They now demand you cover the cost of their liability.. US Sailing put together an insurance package that address's most of their demands. But the sailors have to pay for the coverage.

Perhaps, but I don't see this in my world.... When Sandy Point changed the park around years ago... they had two years of beach use numbers.... the perfect sailing venue had dropped to just one or two boats a weekend. They had other groups that wanted more space... The racers did not use the park but once a year... The beach cats in galesville using that oyster shell RAMP for their parking spots decided to take an opportunity and join the yacht club down the street. We have space on the beach for new members... we don't have waiting lists.... Bottom line. no demand for trailer access to the water ... no demand for yacht club spots. We have issues.

I agree with your main point....(help get the tools for the job)... BUT... you have to have people to help. The racing clubs have solutions they use... the rec sailor has no organization. Dealers have gone away... local dealer agents don't take on maintaining the recreational beach access. it's a problem.

RE swag..

So... 60 riders for your local race... Well... 60 boats would be among the top 5 events in the country for turnout this year for a catamaran race.

Back in the day... the swag came from lots of places... dealers, bars, Coke a Cola, etc etc. So... No big turnout numbers... no easy access to swag!.. Now, I just watched Annapolis Yacht club generate almost 20 K in swag for their Junior Olympics... 300 + kids and their parents.... so... numbers equal good swag... BUT it took a lot of work by their volunteers to get that swag.

I simply don't see a good comparison between beach front property that EVERYONE WANTS and so is among the most expensive real estate in the country and a mountain that you can't build on... or use for much else. Sorry, I just don't see it.

Mark thanks for your reply and I only have a few comments. There is no place to launch a cat here in my town anymore unless you find private land. There are power boat ramps but they are not cat friendly (low draw bridge between bay and ramp with 5 knot current). We have gone to the town and pleaded for access and been turned down and no boat can be left on the beach overnight. We tried to have a regatta and we had to rent the entire parking lot 2,000 per day even off season. There is a yacht club but no beach access and one really steep ramp on the sound side and no beach.
Your nephew needs to check out IMBA for his mountain biking they help clubs get grants, build trails provide insurance. We had our only trail close down several years ago when someone fell and broke there neck and sued the county parks. We did get the trail back open by joining IMBA to provide insurance and help educate the county. We now have a second park opened and just received a 20,000 grant for trail work. Most of the trails are built and maintained by the riders but we do get some financial help from the parks. We have also been contacted by another county to start another park/trail. I guess my point was to help your nephew and when our first trail closed it was just a local group of riders building the trails when the county closed the park. It took the IMBA organizations help to get the park to reopen.
I guess your last comment about a beach and a mountains value is a little hard to understand. Beach access would be a 8'-10' path from road to beach or just a ramp to the water with some kind of ground to pull you boat up. I think most beaches are public to the high water line and have public access. We have the beach paths they just put post in the middle and passed a law for no boats its not about land. Mountain biking takes a lot more space as most trails are 4 to 35 miles long so you do need a lot of land.

Wow, still going?

I only came in to shut down the myth that loss of local access is a valid reason to not join US Sailing. You guys did the rest.

I've launched from ramps, some are easy, others don't work. I was just trying to get people to think outside of the box. There are always more options than you realize; it's really not a big deal.

Read Mark's posts again. Take away all the name calling and defensiveness (on all sides) and he makes a lot of valid points here.

I am the MHC Chair. Will I defend US Sailing? Of course, especially on a topic like this. The organization just isn't meant to be doing what you're asking. We can help, but the grunt work is always local.

David, I honestly wish the mountain biking to beach access argument were so simple. You said it yourself; look at how far you can go with $20,000 with biking. They want hundreds of thousands or more to build boat ramp parks, let alone beaches. Waterfront property, even on some little pond, is ridiculously expensive.

Most places would be OK with our cats (very little environmental footprint, etc.), but they would then have to answer to jetskiers and powerboaters or risk being accused of favoritism. So it's easier just to keep everyone out.

Why do I care? I'm actually trying to help you guys by killing these myths.

How do I know what I'm talking about? My Hobie fleet is always looking for new venues. Our officers and members work really hard with local and state authorities to make this happen. We don't use that as a reason to not join HCA or US Sailing. All that would accomplish is wasting time and effort that could be spent doing something more fruitful... Oh the irony...

Mike

Mike
The 20,000 was a grant we got to build trails only. The county built the roads, well, bathrooms, gazebo, kayak launch, provided signs and the bikers, hikers, horse riders built there own trails. Most beaches have public access they just don't allow cats through them. No need to build a beach it is already public land. I guess the ramps show favoritism to the power boaters and jet skiers. It does not cost hundreds of thousands to put a couple loads of sand by a ramp or clear away some brush. It would be nice if we could just have a more positive attitude. I made a comment about US sailing helping with cat access and I just got beat up with it.

Dave

HOW is asking you to step up and take a lead in an area that you clearly care about is called

beating you up.

?

there are 10 Area Reps and a couple of chairs in the MHC. Plus a few cat sailors who volunteer in other areas... getting done what is on the table now is a struggle.... Putting more on the table requires more people to step up and do work.

My position is... Yes, I think US Sailing could play a role in local beach access issues.. In my experience, these issues were entirely local....BUT I could see value in a US Sailing position in your local battle.

However, It will take someone like yourself to step up and make that happen. You can say... sorry, not interested... but you can't play the victim and say... you were beat up!

Until multihull sailors outnumber the green types, you're f'd. As long as the population keeps booming, you're f'd.

I'm being as positive as possible with all the negativity being thrown our way. I gave constructive advice to help improve the situation. At some point, frustration takes over.

Mike

Yes it does. So name in the last year, all the beach access sites you have gotten in Florida. It shouldn't be to hard, I mean with over 700 miles of coast, surely you can prove what everyone's dues went for. I know all the money stayed in Florida, and we are benefitting in so many ways.....so enlighten us. Name the city or county government, and location of launching sites that are presently under negoiations, and or obtained. Isn't there a saying somewhere,

if we build it, they will come.

Forrest I-20

Mike,Mark,
Thanks for your work in US sailing and stepping up for a no paying job. I don't know how US sailing is structured where the money goes and what goals they have. Explaining that or a link might go a long way to help others understand what there dues go to.
Mark
I guess I felt beat up with your comment about if you want it come make it happen . I may have misread the comment as reading something and talking face to face is a lot different.

Is sailing not green? Maybe we need some new verbiage about wind power. The government is all about saving energy at our expense ( might need a new thread for that this winter).

Dave
no worries.

good luck at the F18s