TriFoiler - Am I missing something?

Contact Sawyer at Key Sailing (877 932 7272). Go to this link to see the Trifoiler they have for sale. I bet if you give them some advance notice, they would rig the beast for you. These are good people so don't hesitate to contact them.

bob Klein

http://www.keysailing.com/sales/boat.htm

There was one that used to come out to the causeway here. In fact it wasn't Hobie then it was a Ketterman(spelling?)tri foiler. The guy that bought it came out a few times but I never seen it really fly. I think part of the problem was the shallow areas here. I think he kept breaking stuff hitting the bottom. He had a daughter that brought it out and she ran it aground breaking something.

I believe I heard it was for sale some time ago. I'll ask around and let you know or someone from this area may remember and comment.

One other thing about them, the original price of the Ketterman I believe was around 6-7 thousand. When Hobie started marketing it the price doubled. Also the one this guy bought I think was hull number six. I don't think it was long after that I heard it became a Hobie. Point is, if you can find one of the original boats it would be obviously quite a bargain.

I have also seen a roto-molded version of a hydrofoil with sails. I think it is called a Windrider. Maybe the company is Windrider. I'm not too sure. I don't know if they are still making them. There is one in the marina by my apartment, but I have never seen it move off it's flaot. The neigbors said it hasn't sailed at all this year.

It's the same idea as the trifoiler, but it has only one mast with a jib and main. It does look like it would be incredibly fast though.

Windrider Rave, but I dont think they are in production any more. The website shows them as discontinued.

http://www.windrider.com/

There were a few Raves around Florida, if you asked around enough you could problably locate one.

If Dean is out there(resident rave expert) he may comment on his feelings between the two, but if I had to choose I'd pick the tri-foiler. The rave's flight attitude is controlled by a joy stick that operates a flap on the back of the rudders T-foil and one small goof and it will nose in like a picthpole. On the tri-foiler the flight attitude is controlled by the sensor feet which moves the L shaped foils fore and aft. All automatic. The rudder has a T- foil and that's it. Less to do lets you concentrate on trim and steering. Plus it's a Hobie so you will be able to get parts easy........( in case you run aground)

My .02 cents

Greg, I know there was a guy in Dedham Mass. with one. He had it at the Buzzard a couple of times. I think he was selling it last year. Sorry I don't know his name. He said he had trouble finding good places to launch and sail. They broke something the last time I saw them out. I think they hit a rock with a foil. Maybe someone from fleet 28 will chime in that knows more.

This has been great info..... Thanks to everyone who chimed in. No one has mentioned actually riding/driving one. Why do you suppose that is? Doesn't it look like a blast?
Brian, do you think Rick Bliss might know this guy in Dedham?
Thanks again everyone,
Greg

I felt like I was going for a ride on one in a video that I found on this site (catsaior.com), years ago. It was posted in these forums and was entitled "Linda n Me." There was a high speed jibe included in this short film.
.avi

GARY

The Rave was developed here in Melbourne (Fl) at the Florida Tech marina. I sailed it a bunch of times around the intracoastal during development and it was a total blast. My max speed was 31 mph. You can pitchpole it if you try hard enough, but I never had that happen.

For a couple years they started buoy racing them in Florida, there were even special reaching courses for them at some events, but the wind never seemed to work out well. Same thing with the distance races, never seemed to get the right wind long enough. I raced one once in the Conch Cup in Miami, it was a long, slow ride.

Its a good boat to fun sail in the right winds. Setup with the special trailor is not too difficult. Ive never been on the Hobie version so cant comment on that.

The Rave for sale in Annapolis is #144 and he was selling it this year. I think he decided to keep it.

When I wanted a foiler, a Tri was hard to find beyond a page on the internet.

Before I bought my Rave I spotted the aforementioned TriFoiler on the Dunedin Causeway. I hung around for the owner to return to the boat, left a message, but we never hooked-up. I couldn't locate a TriFoiler to see and there was a Hobie dealer, no longer here, in Orlando. I bought my Rave, sight unseen, simply because it can be used more easily as a coastal cruiser, loaded with stuff for a weekend or a day, than the TriFoiler. The Tri is a more pure speed boat and has no pretensions to being a comfortable cruiser. The Rave has no pretensions to being "flying only". The Rave is an incredibly durable boat. They are both good designs but are different boats when it comes to describing their typical use. The one thing they have in common is that they fly.

Both boats suffered from a lack of a serious, sustained, supporting marketing effort. Rave production ceased in July of this year. The factory will support the Raves with parts for a couple of years. You could probably have one built for you if you contact Windrider. Used Raves are very hard to find. Most owners are "older", keep them for a couple of years and then tire of the assembly/disassembly needed onshore. In Florida, I can go an entire season sailing around the state's coasts without seeing another foiler.

The joystick on the Rave is used to control bow attitude and the boat can be flown quite easily without a 'stick or with the 'stick left in the neutral position. You learn to fly by not even touching the joystick. It is not overly sensitive. The 'stick was a "race option" on the first Raves produced; standard thereafter.

A pitchpole is so rarely reported that there has been much discussion on the Rave forums simply because most pilots have never experienced it. My one and only pitchpole in six years past occurred when a big gust near a lake shore hit while I was sailing very slowly waiting for a race start. The only few others that I know of happened with novice pilots in too much wind.

The Rave forum is here:
http://www.windriderforum.com

Go here for flying lessons:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=5b6bc3389bc1fb7454e31946f781cad9

P.S.: For the Rave, if you live in a very cold climate the Rave aircraft aluminum frame contracts at a different rate than the High Density Polyethylene central hull which may result in a crack on the transom unless you keep the boat at a more moderate temp than the arctic winters in New Hampshire.

Greg, Rick Bliss might know the T Foil guy, but if it were a Nacra he would know him for sure.

Just to add my two cents, Both boat share a similar ride height/leveling system, the Rave uses trailing wands, the Tri-foiler uses forward floats. but both do the same thing, adjust the lift on the foils to keep the boat from heeling and to not fly up out of the water. The Tri-foiler tilts the one piece L-shaped foil, the Rave has a trim tab on a T-foil, the lower drag makes the Tri foiler faster, but limits how much chop it can handle. Both of them SUCK in kelp areas, on one strong day I got a huge kelp paddy on the leeward foil of my Rave, it yawed the boat into broad reach, and if I started to go out to clear it, the boat would start to flip! Used my trusty boat hook (never sailed without it on this boat)and was able to slowly clear it, but lost alot of room downwind, glad there was no lee shore. Pitchpoled it too, it will stabilize 3 bows straight down, leaving one to carefully climb out of the **** which is now ten feet up in the air!

Thank you everyone. This has been great info....
Also got an email from a guy named Brian at Mariner Sails Wind & Water Sports who wrote:

We don't currently have any leads on used Trifoilers. But we are actively looking. The demand for these boats since Hobie discontinued it has been amazing. Unfortunately, probably fewer than 200 were made, so we're having trouble. The owner (Aris) is maintaining a list of interested parties. If/when we get our hands on another one, we'll get the word out to everyone who's called/e-mailed us.

Thanks for your inquiry.
Brian

Then he followed with:
Aris (the owner of Mariner Sails) was one of the first Trifoiler owners. He spent a bunch of time working with Hobie and the Kettermans to iron out the early design issues. In the few years I've worked here, we've been
involved in about 8-10 Trifoilers. Because we saw so many of these boats, we joked for awhile that we were the only authorized Trifoiler repair and storage facility in the country.

That was very informative too so thank you Brian! Hopefully, I find one of these or a Rave to try sometime/someplace.

Thanks again everyone!
Greg

If you really want too much information, go here:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=585

My "perfect personal fleet" would be an A-Cat and a foiler. I'm halfway there.

Dean,

Have you ever thought about organizing a sailing hydrofoil get together in Florida sometime? I can bring my TriFoiler if given enough notice. I live in Clearwater which is not too far from Orlando. My TriFoiler has been in moth balls for a while so it will take a little work to find all the pieces and put it back together again. Just don't schedule it on the same weekend as a major regatta in the state as I'll be racing one of my other multihulls. You also need to find a good location to hold the event. Seaweeds and shallow water are deadly to foilers. I have yet to find that perfect location. I do know that Dunedin Causeway is not the place!

Jennifer

I have the same water dilemma. Many assume that a foiler owner's toughest requirement is having enough wind. Wind ain't the problem; it's unbostructed water depth that we need more than anything.

It is amazing how thin the water is for most of the Florida coasts and our foilers are not really effective surf punchers to enjoy the deeper depths of the Gulf. A committed foiler owner will not sell his foiler. He simply buys a catamaran for the speed in light air. I'm even considering moving to a cold climate if I can find a place with a consistent eight feet of water along a long part of a coastal shore. (Pensacola would be great but I can't live there. God knows I tried...twice.)

Another hard part of living with a foiler is gathering enough pilots together for an event. We are really spread out geographically. It's been especially tough in the Rave community even so with the many Raves that were sold in Fla. Since our initial enthusiasm a few years ago, there have been attempts to gather but most owners don't respond. More accurately, NO owners respond. They are a solitary bunch which may simply be dictated by their eccentricity, distance, and work. Most pilots are empty nesters so, family obligations usually don't get in the way. BUT, we didn't know that there may be TriFoiler owners in the S.E. that might be interested in attending an event, as well. I will mention it on the Windrider Yacht Club forum and see what happens. Fall is a good time to foil in Florida because the water is still warm, the temperature won't roast you in the boat, and the windspeeds are great. The most convenient place for me to foil is due east of Orlando at the end of S.R. 528, Kelly Park on the Banana River. There are some facilities there with beach launching possible and a wide concrete launch, too, and it's a pleasant place. Too many crab trap floats will keep your crew busy.

I just got off the phone this morning with one of the developers of the Rave. He suggested that I try a new central hull for more speed while in displacement mode. It's the Rave's biggest hindrance. They had to design a hull that would float two people but hullspeed is unnervingly slow in displacement mode. I will be looking for a decent, used Nacra 6.0 hull to heavily modify for my Rave this fall or winter.

Hey Dean,
If it's possible I think I could be one of those comitted Trifoilers without ever actually sitting in one! Do you have any good thoughts about how I can entice someone to part with one that has sat in storage for long enough? Where would I advertise? In the windrider forum?
If you do get a regatta together I could see myself flying down to see it. Let me know.
Thanks
Greg

Jennifer has all the cool sailing toys. I'm guessing yours is the boat I was talking about? Have you thought about sailing off the north side of the Causeway? The water is consistently deep there. There are a couple places to launch.

What about Tampa Bay? I think the average depth there is around 15 feet.

The only reason I didn't take the boat to Tampa area this summer was due to the never-ending construction on I-4 between Orlando and Tampa. It's kinda hairy through the construction zones with anxious tourists wanting to drive by at warp speed.

Hi Mike,

I tried the north side of Dunedin Causeway once. It was blowing 20 to 25 MPH out of the north so there was a lot of wave action. It was just after a cold front and it was not a good day to be out on the Tri-foiler. The surface sensors had difficulty controlling the boat's height off the surface and they were throwing spray everywhere. It is always a wet ride and in a cold wind, it can be uncomfortable. With a lot of wind it is sometime hard to get the boat moving upwind. It is not made for pointing. The problem is there is not a lot of bouyancy in the amas and certainly not enough lateral resistance in the foils at slow speeds. As you sheet in to sail up wind, the leeward ama goes under the surface of the water and creates a tremendous leehelm which can't be overcome with the rudder. You have to ease up on the main sheet and let the ama re-surface and let the boat pick-up a little speed. As the speed increases the hydrofoils start to generate lift which allows you to powerup the sails a little more. Once you have some speed it is okay as long as the leeward hull doesn't go under in a puff or the foils don't snage something.

It is a real dangerous boat if you don't know what you are doing. The speedometer in the boat reads up to 35 mph and I have had it pegged before. It is a little scary sailing at that speed because if you hit something or something breaks at that speed, you can get seriously hurt or even killed! I snagged a crab trap with the rudder while foilborne once and almost got thrown out of the boat in the sudden stop.

JenniferL

It's refreshing to hear an honest description that provides insight. Most owners are hesitant to share our boats' slight failings.

The Rave's self-leveling wands work really well and you can jibe the boat on the foils; literally a flying jibe. I don't. It's more stress than I want to subject to an out-of-production boat but it surely makes for good video.

I don't bother to connect my speedo every outing but I have hit 38mph. Later that same month I calibrated my speedo (Speedtech "Speed Mate") and the correction needed was 1.16 which translates to 44.08mph. Dr. Sam says to keep it no faster than 35. Rig falls down, goes "boom", after a little while at 45mph. At the limit the Rave makes zipping noises which is the sound of the foils approaching cavitation as they come too close to the surface. The rig hums and groans. Once you've maxed-out the tension on the bungees that keep the leveling wands on top of the water, you have to wonder if the whole boat is going to fly out completely. It can if you push it harder. It's a bumpy ride that is very much like the roll on takeoff in a plane; complete with the little jerks from side to side for steering correction. You have to make slight corrections with your feet on the pedals to the rudder. Once you've flown you just don't want to give this boat away but many have and that decision has more to do with assembly and disassembly time. An hour is realistic.

Buoyancy is a big difference between the Rave and TriFoiler. Each boat is at the opposite end of the design parameter. The Rave was designed for plenty of buoyancy for two people in relative comfort in their seats which is too much buoyancy for my (and my crew's) wishes. The central hull has a slow hullspeed in displacement mode so I'm looking to build a much slimmer and lighter hull, a la TriFoiler, for an improvement or a greater compromise; however you want to see it. A lighter boat lifts off sooner in lighter conditions. I'm hoping not build with a boat that has a problem floating! "It can fly but it can't float." I suppose a good long running start on the beach would be in order.

A smaller foil for the rudder was also part of Dr. Bradfield's original, ideal Rave design. The larger foil at the rudder, which is the same size as the ones at each ama, produces more drag and was a concession to manufacturing and economy for the boat that made it to market. That may change on my boat. All it takes is money and thinking, both of which I don't have in abundance.

How long is the Rave?

Rave Specs:

Length 17' / 5.2 m
Beam (foil tip to foil tip) 17' / 5.2 m
Beam (trailered) 7'6" / 2.3 m
Weight 400 lbs. / 182 kg
Total Sail Area (Main & Jib) 195 sq. ft. / 18 m2
"Screacher" 97 sq.ft. / 9 m2
Draft (foils up) 1' / .3 m
Draft (foils down) 4'10"
Mast Height 25' / 7.6 m
Capacity 400 lbs. / 182 kg
Designer Dr. Sam Bradfield / Hydrosail, Inc.
Introduced 1998

Jake,

17 feet (5.2 M)
Cool aren't they?
Greg

Jake,

If you asked in order to get an idea of hull speed, the square root of 17 (4.123105626) x 1.2 = 4.9477 knots.

With 320 lbs. aboard and seated in the seats, the boat will not break above it's bow wave. I tell Sweet Treat to hop up on the windward side coaming above her seat in the hull, slide aft a little, and we go faster. It's still just not fast enough. In displacement mode, all hulls in the water, the foils can provide lift to speed up but that extra lift will just barely keep up with a Hobie 16. The PHRF's are about the same.

I want to ATTEMPT to build a new central hull that slips like a cat but I have to be realistic knowing that I have a LOT more wetted surface with the foils and three hulls. In other words, I'm willing to trade some comfort space in the hull for a slicker shape.

I wasn't really thinking of hull speed. I was just trying to envision the boat with the Nacra 6.0 center hull and I'm thinking it would look pretty spectacular! I think your biggest issue may be space for you to sit in as the 6.0 hull, although not terribly skinny, is still not wide enough for a regular person to sit in (although we're both probably slightly below average in this regard). You might have to open it up a little for the skipper's area. That and the insides of the hulls will need some finish work because they are pretty rough and not skin friendly. I think it's an awsome idea though and these hurdles are pretty minor. Just need some glass work, a forestay attachment point, rudder mount, and some hardware.

The original rotomolded hulls have an aluminum skeleton inside them don't they? How much of that would need to be rebuilt?

A post from a trifoiler sailor at my club.

In any case, is sound like the angle of attack is incorrect for the forward sensors. Yes, if they are wrong a lot can go wrong.
I had my trifoilder out in 25 winds with 2.5 wave before and no problem.
The Crab pot and hitting things is always a problem.

There are a bunch of Mods that can or may be made to the craft to make it more stable and safer to sail. The Speedometer in my was sent out with the higher range and goes up to 45. Remember, my craft was the one highlighted
in Pop Sci so they may have made more mods to that one.

In any case, the sensor is very important to ensure:

They have a limit to its float rotating. I went through some cals and I made mine so they can an angle of attach of 15deg to 30deg. That is adjusted by the length of the small line attached to the toe of the sensor. The lower it goes, the higher the angle of attach. Also, the J Foil can also be adjusted to ensure its angle of attach is correct. It is very very sensitive and requires high tq to be adjusted. I
had to adjust mine as the right J Foil always lower.

I never had any of my Amas sink, ever. Up wind, down wind, any time. My angle of attack of the J foils always had the front up and out of the water, even at slow speeds. I think that there is something wrong with your angle of attack with J and sensors.

There are problems with thr Tri-Foiler but they can be over come with easy solutions.

The foils when landing do not retract easy and you have to jog left and pop the non-leeward, then jog right and pop the non-leeward. But then you have nothing in the water to steer with and stop leeward motion. They have a goofy leeboard to help with this. They should have a drop down rudder like in the 17' Hobie that is build in the hull.

The craft needs a splash shield and water redirector. I made a small mod
where I placed beads of silicon in a V shape off of the top and it really helps bleed off water and then followed up
with damm right at the *. This almost totally stopped the water from coming in the *.

They have a mod to drain water. But I perfer to not punch holes in the hull and use electric pump. There is a nice dry area stern with sealed lid. Can put just about anything in there.

The wires hum at high speed and bug me. This also occured in WW I with theold Bi-Planes. They found putting a foil around the wire, stopped this, and I suspect cut down on resistance but very little.

TOM

Tom, foilers are begging to be fiddled with. It's never good enough. Try this, try that. Higher, faster, sooner, more money, more vacation days from work! Handling the Rave is also a little problematic coming up to the beach. With the foils retracted there is nothing to steer the boat. You can retract the rudder with the joystick but reaching back with one arm to hold the heavy rudder foil down enough to have some steerage is a bit of a contortion. Doran Oster developed a crane system to raise the ama foils while still seated.

Yeah, Jake, it would be the TriFoiler idea of keeping the center hull as small and light as possible. Mary and I like to cruise but now we're willing to give up the roomy hull for a faster shape. (It only took one long day in Pensacola this past June for Mary to loosen the purse strings for the project. It's all my money, of course. I just don't have complete control of it!)

The 6.0 hull would be only a starting point. I'm 5'8" and 150 and my crew is 5'8" and 160 (thank God she doesn't read the forums!) and I would want room for both of us. The frame presents the biggest modification hurdle and I don't have the knowledge to do it alone. Fortunately, I can get some advice from the designers who live in Melbourne, about an hour from Orlando.

I can make a 3D model in Autocad of the frame and the donor hull, and I can ask for advice on where the frame can be modified, and what will be needing a revision here or there (he said, hopefully ignorant of the quagmire of choices yet to be made to what is already a perfectly good flyer).

What was that new company making a new catamaran in Titusville, or Canaveral, or somewhere on the coast near me? I would like to give them a call but I can't remember anything about them to do a search and I tossed the Catsailor issue that featured the new boat. Maybe one of their hulls won't be too big.