I have yet to hear anyone say anything really positive or helpful ......
OK here you go. The IWCA is doing it right.
The root problems in the IHCA are
1) too much manufacturer control and
2) too much conflict of interest with so many classes under one association.
The IWCA avoids both problems.
What's the difference between this and Hobie not allowing any 16's with aftermarket sails.. If you weigh 250 pounds then maybe you shouldn't be racing a Wave.
The majority of Hobie 16 racers don't want to allow after market sails, the majority of Wave racers do.
OK, you guys want some hard numbers. (I do) I just got off the phone with the regatta chair and he said that there was only 1 IWCA racer that RSVPd, not registered, just RSVPd. Just ONE.
Moot point.
J
What is the IHCA position on RECUTTING (reshaping) stock sails for the weight challenged?
When was the last time the IHCA dsq'd anyone for a recut stock sail?
and how did(could) they prove it?
Certainly NOT when I sailed a H20 in the 90's, the recut sails were clearly faster than uncut,
and sailmakers had a nice business recutting sails.
That is true, and that will be fixed asap. Thanks for pointing that one out.
I know, I brought that up about the recut 20 sails (I had one with my 20 for a while) and peoples mouths dropped open. They couldn't believe it. You have a good point too, they would need to prove it.
The majority of Hobie 16 racers don't want to allow after market sails, the majority of Wave racers do.
Truth isn't always determined by majority vote.
At some point you have to just follow the rules and stop trying to change every little thing you don't like, otherwise you subject yourselves to a big, slippery slope.
And what problems are you referring to? As of yet there have been no problems concretely identified.
J
And what problems are you referring to? As of yet there have been no problems concretely identified.
J
Well if we're done with this topic we could easily do another 10 pages on Appendix B for starters. You should probably start another thread.
Having read this thread from end to end, i am just glad i sail in the A-Class where everything is different. In tornados we used sails that measured in, but were not one design. This may change though and that would be a shame. If I sailed Waves, I would want the ability to sail with a fuller sail for weight reasons.
Gentleman,
This is not really about the HavaMega anymore .... this about us, the members of the HCA-NA being able to control our organization and impliment changes that we feel are needed. My analogy for the IHCA is that they are acting like a
ruling class
...ie: Royalty. We, the ruling class knows whats best for you peasants, and must keep you sefe from yourself. Now we sent all the
royalty
packing here in America a long, long time ago ... I remember learning about something called
The American Revolution
... so this kind of organzational structure doesn't work for too long here in the USA. It just goes against our basic
belief system
.
Jeremy, I'll ask the question that nobody whats to hear or answer about the IHCA's biggest policy ... has the IHCA's policy of
Hobie Only
been a success??? Has Hobie sold more boats? .... Has regatta attendence increased because of this policy? Has the HCA-NA's membership increased???
Let's ask the Hobie owners south of Div11 (Maryland).... there isn't a Hobie
Points Regatta
south of Maryland down to the Florids Keys and across the
Gulf Coast to the Mexican Border .... Gulfport YC, Florida is BEGGING for a Hobie Fleet and can not find anyone interested. Why? There used to be numerous Hobie Fleets in this very large area and now there is how many active fleets since the
Hobie Only
Edict???
Matt and Brucat please do not give me any BS here .... prove me wrong by stating FACTS!!!!! I do have all my old
Hotlines
w/ the racing results listed, do you want me to dig them out? .... Digging your heads into the sand will not change the realility .... walking around telling me (and others)
you are just thinking negatively
will not change the reality either .... The analogy I think fits best is the story of
The Emperor and his New Clothes
. Or I can put it bluntly ... I'm tired of the IHCA
pissing on my leg and telling me it's only raining
. The ol' Hobie Guard has to reconize the facts and make changes to the IHCA before it's too late. Please note you'll only reconize when it's too late until after it truely is ....
The IWCA members were just
Dis-Invited
from every
Hobie Points Regatta (effectively) by the IHCA. They will not call or E-Mail you ... they will simply just go away and play somewhere else. (And Mike/Brucat, to answer your earlier question, at this point if I was a
Wave
sailor you could GIVE me a charter boat to use and airplane tickets to get to Havasu and I would tell you ...PISS-OFF ... I will not attend and race under IHCA rules, it's the principle. H_ll, I don't even want to race my TheMightyHobie18 under IHCA rules anymore ......)
Chris, Before you get some rule written making it illegal to
re-cut
your sails I would suggest that you ask two questions:
1) What was causing everyone to have their sails re-cut??? Poor quality?, poor design/under performance, no consistencey in performance from sail to sail?
2) What options do I have to fix a
poor
sail if I'm not allowed to have the sail Re-Cut?
I've had 4 sets of sails for my TheMightyHobie18 over the years ... two sets were good .... one set was
adequate
.... and another set should have been re-cut but I sold them off to a friend who is only a
Rec/Beach Sailor
w/ the statement not to use that set for racing as they did not perform well against other TheMightyHobie18's.
Harry Murphey
PS: Chris you are on the correct path, so I'll leave you w/ this latin phrase ...
illigitami non carbarundum
(Translation: Don't let the Bastards wear you down) Please note, the spelling may not be quite correct but it's close.
Spent the day down at Sail Sand Point, www.sailsandpoint.org working on our Waves and H-16's. Can not believe this thread is still dragging on. Finally got my Cat Sailor in the mail, it takes a little longer to make it to the NW. Excellent Editorial by Rick, and contrite letter from Gordo. Both have done extensive things for our sport. Rick has even brought his excellent program to the NW several times to teach us how to race. Gordo, has participated in many local regattas, and always picks up a local youth to crew. Gordo also tried to get us to take our six Waves down to Havasu, before he struck the deal with Hobie Cat. It was just too far, plus our local youth sailors can not take off the time from school.
But, this is a HCA event, and the HCA rules should apply. Rick has done a great job of building the IWCA, and turning the Wave into a race class that attracts sailors of all ages and experience. The HCA Wave Class is primarly to encourage Youth Sailors, and to build the future Cat Sailors.
Jeremy, who has a lot invested in this Regatta is still waiting for an answer. Sounds like there will be plenty of Charter boats. Certainly a great way to take part with a level playing field. Just like a Hobie Worlds, or other events with all new boats.
Which brings me back to some other thoughts on Hobie Cat Co, their dealers and HCA. Since I have been racing,volunteering, and other wise observing this group since 1971, perhaps I can offer some additional prospective. Thru all the ups and downs of their business, Hobie Cat and their dealers have always supported our local Hobie Cat Fleets and their events.
Our Boat Storage/Access yard at Sail Sand Point is full of other Cats, that have not supported their Fleets and now are members of the Dead Boat Society.
Sorry Rhodysail, but I can not agree with your objections. A Class must have the full support from the Manufacturer, Dealers, and Class Association to survive. We will never make it to the Olympic level, but there must be a corporative arrangement to allow our classes to survive.
And to Hobie1616 re your
I've still got the $500 waiting for Nothing but Nets
We will continue our Free Fast and Fun programs, http:/
We will however, glady accept donations to help grow our programs and scholarships.
Lastly, Stephen C.
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain
Could that be a reference to our North Americans at Harrison last year? Perhaps on the last race when the Squall blew thru?
Caleb Tarleton
One of the things which the IWCA rules specifically prohibit is a tiller extension. On my Wave, I have the new EZ-Lock rudders, which have very short tiller arms; so I have added a tiller extension, allowing me to sit farther forward to balance the boat. (Something I learned from reading Rick's book.) To legally participate in the IWCA-sanctioned regattas, I removed the tiller extension. No big deal.
Since all Waves came with Hobie sails and stock rudders, couldn't the folks who choose after-market sails and rudders for IWCA racing, simply put their stock ones back on for HCA events? IndyCar racers use different wings and foils for oval tracks vs. road courses. It's just a different set-up for different events.
I'm an advocate of stock boats, because I think it's such a great boat out of the box(es)! But I don't think anyone should be turned away (or dis-invited) who wants to race. Maybe a PHRF-type adjustment could be used for stock-vs-custom, if it makes that much of a difference.
As always, well said Caleb.
Hopefully things will work out.
I like the Act surprised, Show concern, Deny Deny Deny approach. Then go for forgiveness.
Just get all the boats there and figure it among that group.
Calab,
To be truely FAIR One-Design racing the wieght of the ALL boats and crews need to be equal w/ all the boats being identical .... are you proposing that all crews be wieghed and the lighter crews carry wieght to
equalize crew weights
between the competitors??? The IWCA competitors have developed rules that make the compitition fair for them. So why should the IHCA or me a TheMightyHobie18 racer ... or anyone else for that matter be able to tell the Wave racers what the (equipment)rules are for their class. I believe that they have the right to set their own (equipment)rules as any class should.
Pat,
I agree w/ you .... but the IWCA has already done that (IMHO) .... and the IHCA will not allow your suggestion anyway .... (I believe that is the whole point of this thread.)
Now for all you that think HCA-NA H16 Class is true One-Design racing I have a challange for you .... lets line up side by side four H16's, a 1975 boat, a 1985 boat, a 1995 boat and a 2005 boat .... lets wiegh and measure the boats/ sails (don't forget to test that
new
front crossbar for stiffness) .... I would think a tolerence of lets say 2% on all wieghts and diamentions would be reasonable .... (note T's and A-Cats tolerences are below 1/2%).... anyone care to take the challenge???? I'll even bet a $100 that the boats do not meet the criteria.
Bob Merrick and I am in agreement here ... the IHCA is controlled by the manufactures and it is time for the representatives tied to the manufactures to GO .... the IHCA committee needs and should be made up of Boatowners/competitors w/ the manufactures having a roll/input as advisors to the class(es).
Harry
Jeremy, I'll ask the question that nobody whats to hear or answer about the IHCA's biggest policy ... has the IHCA's policy of
Hobie Only
been a success??? Has Hobie sold more boats?
We get around 40 Hobie one-design boats here at every regatta in div 3, the aclass races with the yacht club, the F18 guys in so-cal race with the ABYC,the Performance guys sail off the beach right by my shop with no inclination to race, so everybody is taken care of. I understand that it's different in other parts of the country, but that's how it is here. You rarely hear people from the West Coast complain about the rule, we're all out sailing what ever it is that we sail. If sailing is what you want, there are so many opportunities out there you just have to go find them, or develop them like I am currently doing with the SCYC here locally.
The edict? I'm personally indifferent. It just seems like another thing for people to complain about instead of using the effort to get out on the water and sail. We're about what, 5 years after the fact? It's time to stop the banter and get out there and race if that's what you want to do. If not, just stop the negativity, there's no reason to take everyone down that road with every other post.
For the record:
The motive for this thread is obvious. It was started by someone that has no vested interest in the Havamega or the Wave class, or even sailing Hobies for that matter. Most of the negativity is continued by someone that sails an F16, then furthered by someone that has interest in getting more 16s up to CORK and poopooing the Havamega 16 fleet for personal reasons. I count only one Wave sailor post. Then the thread is finished off by the old anti-edict guard. Nice. I hope everyone can read into the posts here a little bit and see the real agendas.
I hope that the critics here get a taste of their own medicine if they're ever a regatta chair for an event. You're just taking the wind out of the sails of a handful of great volunteers that are trying to do their best for the sport and in particular the Havamega. Very uncool.
J
Support yes
Total control no
Long thread...
Not one actual sailor who was planning to go and sail a Wave yet? Hummm.
I'm the first then.
I plan to go and sail a
stock
charter boat. Personally, I'm happy that some guy is not coming with a jacked up Wave, custom sails and custom rudders.
Yes, I work for Hobie Cat and I also have a personal, vested interest in the Wave because I was involved with the design and did much of the test sailing on this boat. I have NEVER felt it was good to open up the rules on this boat. It is a simple boat and sails very well with a variety of weights... stock. Custom sails are NOT needed and putting glass rudders on this boat is just silly.
As far as personal experience with varying winds and crew weights... I have a lot of time sailing on this boat. I have raced the Wave at a number of HCA events over the years. I have also raced a few events down at the Bitter End YC. They do a week long event each Thanks Giving week on Hobie Waves and Getaways. Last time (last fall) I was down there with Greg Thomas. He's a pretty good sailor right? He is pretty light too. I am heavy. I can tell you from PERSONAL experience that racing stock boats was very competitive. I found that the advantage can go to weight as the wind comes up and I didn't see a real disadvantage in lighter air against him or the various other sailors. The boat sails well AS IS.
Let the sailors skills and changing conditions be the variable.
I hope that the critics here get a taste of their own medicine if they're ever a regatta chair for an event. You're just taking the wind out of the sails of a handful of great volunteers that are trying to do their best for the sport and in particular the Havamega. Very uncool.
If there had been any respect for the organizers things would have gone along unchanged.
Here's what the organizer had to say about it.
“As a final remark I will say that were it not for the intrusion of one already named individual in all this, we’d be on our way to a lot more fun than I now anticipate.”
I have so much respect for the organizer of this event. He has done so much for our class it's amazing. This is, in large part, why the recent change is so disappointing.
Then quit rubbing his nose in the big steaming pile. He doesn't deserve it.
J
Then quit rubbing his nose in the big steaming pile. He doesn't deserve it.
J
I’d be surprised if he saw it that way.
stock
charter boat. Personally, I'm happy that some guy is not coming with a jacked up Wave, custom sails and custom rudders.
Yes, I work for Hobie Cat and I also have a personal, vested interest in the Wave because I was involved with the design and did much of the test sailing on this boat. I have NEVER felt it was good to open up the rules on this boat. It is a simple boat and sails very well with a variety of weights... stock. Custom sails are NOT needed and putting glass rudders on this boat is just silly.
Interesting Matt. So can you tell us how many changes were made to the wave by Hobie since it was introduced (tramp, ect.) I have heard some things aren't interchangable on earlier models.
So can I race my 21se at the Havamega? I remember being told when trying to Pre-register for Mid Winters once that I couldn't race since there were no other 21se's comming in 2002. I guess they didn't consider it a Hobie anymore. I was on the list to come race on an FX1 but all this has brought up some familiar feelings for me about Hobie Class Racing and the politics. Then to hear about the drama with a certain team not being able to bring some boats to race in the Tybee (which isn't HCA anyway) because Hobie USA was sqwakin' about it. So in response to Jeremy's direct question, I won't be comming. If Hobie US ever gets a dime from me again, it will most likely be to get parts for a Hobie Europe boat.
Have a Hobie Day!
Interesting... actually... from a N20 sailor? Right? What does the 21SE have to do with this?
Very little has changed on the Wave over the years. Actually... the tiller length is likely the most RADICAL change since it was designed. That made the rudders easier to put down and raise. Sorry... that was mostly a recreational sailors change though. The original rudders are class legal though.
Absolutely Lee! If you show up you'll be my honored guest. And if you give me the names of the person that told you that you couldn't race the 21 or the FX, I'd be glad to talk to them on your behalf.
Let me restate my question just so there's no confusion:
How many WAVE sailors are NOT going to show up to the Havamega that originally were before the NOR change? I am laser focused on getting an answer, so any extraneous argument isn't going to throw me off. Dig?
J
Well you already contacted the three Wave members of the NAHCA class so you have those three sailors commitments.... right?
Matt Miller makes 4.
Below are the names of the IWCA Wave sailors who did the NA's last year... They would be LIKELY folks to race a WAVE.
None of them appear to be regulars on this forum.....
So... your bleating like a stuck goat... or focused like a laser beam or whatever you are doing trying to make a point by demanding to know who was coming and now have canceled their plans...will take some more work on your part...
Oh... I KNOW!.... you might contact the IWACA Class President and ask if he would send out a very nice email from you in which you get to INVITE THEM AGAIN .... or Plan B... you could demand to know if they were coming before and not coming now?
BIG HINT.... (Likely that you need it) IT WOULD BE WELCOMING to write these guys.... apologize, explain and invite again.... Don't try plan B.... It just proves that you are an butt who does not know when to stop digging.
Idiot!
Published on Cat Sailor Front Page for the Last Wave NA's.
HelmName
Leah White
Patrick Green
David White
Mark Scarpelli
Ray Matuszak
Stan Woodruff
Jim Glanden
Steve Abbey
Skip Kaub
Paul Lindenberg
John Mcknight
Sharon Woodruff
Nelson Wright
Stewart Glegg
Bruce Fields
Marlyn Hahn
Larry Ferber
Tom Cottingham
Kathy Kulkoski
Kirk Spangler
Charlie Merritt
Matt Miller makes 4.
Below are the names of the IWCA Wave sailors who did the NA's last year... They would be LIKELY folks to race a WAVE.
None of them appear to be regulars on this forum.....
If none of THEM care enough to voice an opinion on this forum then why are YOU beating your chest
Oh... I KNOW!.... you might contact the IWACA Class President and ask if he would send out a very nice email from you in which you get to INVITE THEM AGAIN .... or Plan B... you could demand to know if they were coming before and not coming now?
BIG HINT.... (Likely that you need it) IT WOULD BE WELCOMING to write these guys.... apologize, explain and invite again.... Don't try plan B.... It just proves that you are an butt who does not know when to stop digging.
Idiot!
Quite honestly as I stated in my previous post, I feel that HCC and IHCA have given themselves a black eye by throwing their weight around.
For us as sailors to start tearing one another apart on a public forum is counter productive.
I have met Jeremy, and while he is a Hobie Dealer, he has done a lot for cat sailing on the west coast without regard for the breed of cat .
Mark, I have never met you, so I can only judge you by your words. Your unkind words and name calling leaves a very unfavorable impression.
You might have sent something that strongly worded in a private message and saved yourself some public embarrassment.
Isn't it about time we all toned things down a bit and let the Wave sailors speak for themselves.
Stephen
Idiot!
Thanks man. I've been called waaaay worse.
Why should I apologize to the class exactly? What'd I do? Oh, sponsor the regatta. I was going to go to bat for them Monday morning as soon as I got some hard numbers. There are no hard numbers as of yet. Difficut to make an argument.
Can someone please explain to Mr. Schneider that I have been on the phone with the regatta chair at least 3 times a week for the last 2 months talking about this, and I've called the powers that be twice to discuss it, and endured countless emails.
And can someone please tell me what class Mr. Schneider sails in so that I can make sure the next time they ask for raffle prizes or any manufacturer support from anyone in the marine industry the companies are informed that they may be called an 'idiot' or an 'butt' online.
This is ridiculous. You guys should really be ashamed at your reactions. The 6th graders I used to teach weren't this bad.
I'm done.
J
Wow! My issue with SMOD is not shapes or quality of equipment, but rather the inconsistency with what should be consistant. Cost is another factor as being experienced by N20 guys. My issue with Hobie is there abandonment of Fleet 8 when we opened up the racing to all makes under portsmouth. I race an SX, there is only one other that shows up with any consistency. With the F18's making their own class I need the I20's to have someone to race against. Despite our disownment, Hobie did throw down cash when we hosted the F18 NA's in 2007. They also spoke directly with me on the phone when I was converting my SX to use a Tiger mast so that I could dump the comptip that was ready to explode. They told me it wouldn't work, but they also told me to buy Hobie 20 parts versus Tiger parts and save money.
But, the name calling, and slandering of sponsors, and slandering of the Regatta Chair, is absolutely unacceptable. As the Chair for 07 F18NA's comments like that would have definately caused me to never VOLUNTEER again. If you don't like the way something is run, get off your a$$ and run it yourself. But do not ever slander someone in public who is VOLUNTEERING their time so that others can race. Doing so not only discourges that person from VOLUNTEERING again, but it will scare of other potential volunteers and racers alike, especially the new guys on the block.
I just don’t understand how upsetting the customer became an acceptable business model. This is baffling.
Somebody keeps asking for people that are not going to attend because of the change back to Hobie rules so I would like to say I am one of them. I can honestly say our whole fleet is not going to attend but do not want to speak for anyone but myself.
I race a wave with a North sail and think it is a much better system than trying to keep everything stock. The boat sails much better with the North as the stock is really flat. That is my opinion and points out the need for different cuts as some other sailor might find flat sails to there liking. As for the rudders they are all EPOS which are Hobie stock and nothing else has been changed on the boat. Most thriving one deign classes have this format. Example the Thistles. Not changed for over a half century except for the measured sails from any sail maker and have a hundred boats at nationals every year with some of the best sailors around. In my opinion different sails makes the racing closer than farther apart. Every sailors sails different some like to foot some like to pinch but all like to go fast and need to find a sail that works for them.
This discussion is needed but it is also getting way out of hand. We are all sailors looking to compete have fun and race catamarans.
I wish the event tremendous success, the people who race in it fun and safety, and for the sport of catamaran sailing to grow from it.
I myself know that I will miss not being there but will be somewhere else with my friends chasing them around A mark as close as could be.
Patrick Green Stock Hobie wave #11 North sail...