Regardless, we all had a great time at the Alter Cup. A lot of effort went into the Event. Now we need to continue to support the Championship Comm. to make the next Alter Cup even better. And, support your local sailing activities. BTW, Sail Sand Point in Seattle, A US SAILING Center does that for the NW.
www.sailsandpoint.org
Talk about dodging! I asked for ideas to move forward, you still want to compare to the past.
I don't know what sort of denial you've lived in for the past two years, but no one was more hopeful that we could retain the old format than I was coming into this. It quickly became obvious that the boats are just too expensive now, regardless of the manufacturer. You mentioned Bert, he was the one who dug up the numbers ($1500-$2000 per F16).
Instead of whining and complaining and saying let's take the money and fold, we tried to come up with something that could work.
Someone else wants this job? I'm fine with that. If someone else is ready to step up and move us forward, that's great. But, forward is leading toward better relations with US Sailing, and not making demands that will never see the light of day.
The whole key to this is knowing where we can make gains, and where we're just going to further push ourselves away from the table.
Mike
www.sailsandpoint.org
THIS is what we need more of.
Has this been a perfect (or easy) transition over the past few years? Of course not.
But, with people willing to try new things, and to work with (rather than making demands of and threats against) the US Sailing staff and board, we can make real improvements that can benefit all cat sailors.
Mike
Mike, I'm not dodging at all. Never have. My suggestion to you is to reach out to the sailors in the fleet. Not on Catsailor. Pick up a phone. There are ideas, though they might sound familiar. There are certainly opinions about what went well this year and what didn't. And that concerns administration, NOT the efforts of the volunteers in running the event. Caleb is right - fun time had by all, and a lot of effort went into it. As much as it might play against your preconception, I had nothing but gratitude and a helping hand to offer while in Sausalito. To circle back to the original point, you need to be honest, at least with yourself, about who did what. Broad statements like
big time
and
momentum
need to be realistic. The boats are not too expensive to charter if the manufacturer is recognized as the title sponsor. With Rolex out of the picture, that should be on the table.
While you're at it, please make sure you get the balances and expenditures on the various multihull restricted funds and have them reflected in the minutes.
Good. Nobody deserves to be left out in the cold.
John
Steve Clark responded to a question about the fairness of corporate funding for C class programs. His point of view as both an ex boat builder/ businessman and now leading his own C program.. Was straight forward... Sponsors want a lot for the money they hand over to you and so you wind up running a sailing business for the sponsor dollars. He had no interest in running a business and choose to just design and build his boats on his own dime and time.
Seems to me... the same philosophy holds for the US Multihull championships. Pay your own dime for your personal satisfaction. I don't expect a promoter to be out raising money to subsidize my sailing and to do this for nothing. Its a business.
The volunteers (me for a year) representing sailors in my region and others from around the country have NO interest in running a sailing business for an elite regatta.
(I am still on board with the Corinthian ideals and so I am more interested in giving my time to more charitable causes or events that grow the sport beyond what we have.)
I don't get the expectation that sponsors/promoters/ are part of the US Sailing call to service for growing the sport.
So just for grins, Assuming you have this promoter who will do all of this work gratis... You make this blanket claim....
Do you have a spreadsheet for your proof of concept?
How about a spreadsheet from any other builder in a monohull fleet or any sailing promoter?
Even if you could find sponsors for one year the event must repeat the following year and promoters tend to bail when their spreadsheets turn red.
Volunteers suck at finding and getting yearly donations and running this kind of business (most burn out running their clubs annual regatta much less a business of this magnitude).
Moreover, boat sponsors have strings attached to make the deal work for them which force choices on venues, time of the year, etc etc.
The major issue is one of financial and legal control with promoters... eg Could you have imagined US Sailing supervising Mike Worrel?... The lawsuits aimed at US Sailing would have been epic!
Even More business issues.... If you are US Sailing.... why would you want a group asking the same sponsors for a US championship in catamarans and then having to ask again for your Olympic catamaran program? (That is why they control the sponsor deals)
Final point is simply one of philosophy.... interest by the rank and file in the old format of area winners and 10 petitions in many areas of the country had gone to zero as evidenced by the turnout at qualifiers.
What is the argument for taking any more then the required draw of the endowment money and running anything other then an open event? The open and rotating discipline format serves more sailors in the country. At best, I could see merit in limiting an event to 20 teams by resume (which would still be a huge one design turnout in the USA in 2013).
Perhaps great answers to these issues could persuade the MHC to submit a proposal to the independent and separate championship committee to make changes...again.
I would vote to finish the cycle... spin, sloop, single hander (2014) before changing the game.
Good points Mark, agree.
Mark, it isn't a proof of concept - it was practice. We gave significant recognition to the manufacturers for years, and they provided boats at a sharply discounted charter fee. The fee was going up, but was still 50% of market value or less. Boats were put into a region where manufacturers or dealers or fleets felt they would sell, and they did before the end of the event with only one or two years as exceptions. It was a good relationship, and the goal wasn't elitism - it was putting new boats in an area where fleet growth was happening. We didn't dictate what the boat would be - we asked what the builders wanted to sell. Because the event wasn't about the boat. It was about equal platforms and a rotation system that put each team on each boat at some point in the event. Ten area representatives, several class champions and three petitions - again, not solely for the elite, but still prestigious. And not for the sole purpose of selling boats, but to grow fleets and attract multihullers to the organization irrespective of class affiliation. I didn't come up with any of this, so there's no ego involved.
No need to cover the history again, is there? Things changed, but only because (IMO) the volunteers lost control. Certainly there had been diminished interest in Area events, but over half of them were still happening, particularly where there were spark plugs. Contrast this with zero at present. Area events generated members. Now that US Sailing membership isn't required to sail the championship, there is a net loss of members. Just join your sailing federation (PUR or FRA, for example), bring your CE vest, and sail on. This year, international sailors at least joined US Sailing in the spirit of the event, but we're still undeniably net loss.
I understand the situation - the process has resulted in what we have now, and it has never been my intention to malign the people who show up, wave flags, blow horns and carry beach wheels. I simply do not accept the
you can't do that
that we hear now from the organization that should be asking us how it should be done. We did do that, you and me and many who frequent this forum. In service to sailors. And it was working. But I accept my views are out of step with the current volunteers' outlook, who, as you've pointed out, will spin, sloop and single-hander. And we'll see where we land. Make me wrong and I'll be happy. In the meantime, I doubt I can resist asking for clarification, for example, when someone posts a declarative that doesn't seem to fit the facts.
TL:DR?
John
what do you define as
not solely
...
That is EXACTLY the system Area Winners, Class champions and invitations (to the top sailors who compete at nationals).
The trend of multihull sailors supporting this championship was down for years... With about 50 teams and just over half the Areas participating... I judge it as a failure. YMMV of course.
The core issue is Why do we want an elite regatta like this anyway?
We like the rest of the US Sailing OD classes have our NA's and Nationals. They are open!
US Sailing already runs a champion of champions invitation only regatta where multihull class NA winners can compete.
And.... We HAVE an elite multihull championship already... it is called the Olympics.... runs every 4 years. Better then that... The US slot is an OPEN competition... show up and win the selection events and you represent the US. No requirements to win anything or be selected by a committee to compete.
So Why do we need an elite by invitation only event that has all of these competition strings attached to pretend that we are sorting the best US multihull sailors? Moreover, why should we take the efforts of a large number of volunteers and the endowment and focus it on this small
not solely elite
group of the multihull racing community sailing boats that the builders want to market? (of course if as you suggest and you ask the people who have raced the event in the past... they will say they loved it.. (but they would not be sloop or singlehanded sailors) (who would not enjoy the sponsorship and endowment money for their use!)
I judged that the US Sailing championship should be OPEN and not Elite... just like the other championships in the country.
Bottom line... the premise that the old format attracted sailors to the organization was failing. The elite regatta format appeals to a select few and did not serve the entire sailing community (see the trends). ... Sailors felt like it was extortion to go to a local regatta run by the same volunteers that ran last weeks regatta. They voted with their feet.
There are fundamental problems with your basic and historical premise. Moreover, I don't believe that you can come up with a spreadsheet for the environment we now live in, much less convince a builder to put marketing money in the game based on your spreadsheet. (Yes times change... you do need a proof of concept. The notion that volunteers were loosing control is complete crap! There were votes by lots of people. No money was left on the table in the year that I served on the C committee.
So, where we are now is that the MHC supported the Championship Committee implementing the following principles.
Move the event around the country.
Serve the needs of all the mulithull sailors (sloop classes. spinnaker Classes and Singlehanders)
Use the endowment money to sponsor race clinics for all interested sailors in an effort to grow interest and skills in cat racing.
The old system had failed because of the business model and lack of rank and file support for qualifiers. The current system could fail if one design classes don't support their turn at the championship within their championship program.
You've successfully convinced yourself. Must have missed you at the last dozen or so. This all holds up if you accept the application of the terminology of
failure
and
elite,
which I don't. And if you're merely a survey-taking non-participant, you simply cannot have an informed opinion. If the event was viewed by the participants as successful, then the task is to administer to that success and build on it. We got great mileage from that approach.
Again, simply ask sailors who have participated in events before and after the changes made what they liked and didn't like... there are plenty of non-elites to choose from. This will provide you with data from the actual people who pay money and show up. Then give them what they want.
The race clinic was awesome this year. :-/
Take a minute to plot participants on a map - we always found that to be a good measure of reach.
You guys asked for suggestions - would it be better if these all came from someone not named John Williams?
not solely
...
Mark, take the last five Alter Cups run before the changes (none of which I was chair, BTW) and peruse the bottom 15 finishers at each event. Your insistence that the event was only for elites is ridiculous.
As mentioned, I was always a big fan of what the event
was.
But, toward the end of that run, how many qualifiers were valid, as in, run per the US Sailing requirements?
Mike
was.
But, toward the end of that run, how many qualifiers were valid, as in, run per the US Sailing requirements?
Mike
What does that have to do with it? US Sailing
requirements
don't fit the layout of our sailing community as catamaran sailors. I can go into more detail upon inspection of that last statment. That said, I did strive to push our area into meeting the US Sailing requirements but we slid in the area of allowing non-US sailing members participate toward the end. We allowed them to participate to not excluding the company of our friends that aren't concerned with qualifying (although they knew their scores wouldn't count toward the qualification). We regularly had one of the top three attended qualifiers without that in mind. One could argue that we introduced people to US Sailing.
Nice try Jake!
The principle is the same as allowing non class members to race in your OD NA's.... You could say you are introducing the new guys to your class.
Every qualifier that I ran... which could be 20 or so had no integrity because I did exactly what you did...
You are between a rock and a hard place on this... You have a Yacht Club that is hosting your event and you must have enough sailors to make the event viable financially. You also don't have any rank and file support for the championship as designed. The happy talk about the good ol days were actually a racket.
US Sailing would just strike all of the non members and cope with the lack of integrity by the catamaran world. It took a nasty protest in another championship for US sailing to change their practice and follow the rules we all agreed on. We were O for 10 in the last round of Area championships that followed the rules.
There was no glory in the good ol days.
I bet that NO area rep has gotten a phone call about ... gee where is the area qualifier... I really miss that regatta..... I certainly don't miss having to flim flam them.
JDub, your PM says you're over the limit. Stop downloading so much porn
The principle is the same as allowing non class members to race in your OD NA's.... You could say you are introducing the new guys to your class.
Every qualifier that I ran... which could be 20 or so had no integrity because I did exactly what you did...
You are between a rock and a hard place on this... You have a Yacht Club that is hosting your event and you must have enough sailors to make the event viable financially. You also don't have any rank and file support for the championship as designed. The happy talk about the good ol days were actually a racket.
US Sailing would just strike all of the non members and cope with the lack of integrity by the catamaran world. It took a nasty protest in another championship for US sailing to change their practice and follow the rules we all agreed on. We were O for 10 in the last round of Area championships that followed the rules.
There was no glory in the good ol days.
I bet that NO area rep has gotten a phone call about ... gee where is the area qualifier... I really miss that regatta..... I certainly don't miss having to flim flam them.
First point to make, Mark, is that the Area J event continues - we have it every year and the names on the perpetual are meaningful. You say the qualifiers had no integrity, but you miss (intentionally?) Jake's point that they worked for our community. We had events that were well attended and sent good teams to the finals. Your assertion that the championship didn't have support is simply false, as evidenced by the financial success, the administrative continuity, and full berths at every championship. I get that you have to cling to the premise that there wasn't support in the sailing community, because without it you're kinda nowhere. US Sailing had to force out nearly all the volunteers in order to revise the history and start from scratch. This wasn't limited to the Alter Cup, of course. It was part of the larger reorganization. Water under the bridge.
Since you were willfully not a participant, I again submit that you don't know what you're talking about when you say there were no good ol' days. Must be present to win. Or conversely, ask those who were. And if someone like Jake
Runs with Screw Gun
Kohl pipes up, your first inclination should not be to shout,
Liar!
Runs with Screw Gun
Kohl pipes up, your first inclination should not be to shout,
Liar!
This is a point that cannot be understated Mark!
John... it was a nice harmless racket while it lasted... Perhaps you forget about some very popular rackets... My favorite In Baltimore, was the Peabody Book store, which was very popular back in the day... not for the book store in the front... but for the bar in back room. A profitable racket at the time!
I and Jake made it work for our regions... We pretended that all of these sailors were signing up to compete, The sailors pretended to be members, following all of the rules of the championship ladder competitions when really we were just racing another local weekend regatta. It was a nice little harmless racket that worked for our community. I am glad some of my friends participated in the second step of the championships. I believe that you had a great time sailing in them and you believe they were successful....just like the owners and patrons of my Peabody Bookstore.
I personally don't think it was wise to routinely petition and succeed in pulling large amounts of money out of the endowment to keep the racket going... but water under the bridge.. Time has moved on. This racket, just like the Peabody Bookstore racket, is over and those that benefited will just have to adjust.
Dave.... It is ONE championship with two parts... Qualifiers and a Championship. I participated for 20 friggin years by sailing in and running many qualifiers.
Or did you forget this detail?
It would appear that you are suggesting that the previous iterations of the Alter cup were less than on-the-level as a bar in the backroom of a bookstore would be. This is an uninformed suggestion with no supporting fact and, frankly, quite disrespectful to anyone that has helped organize or compete in the event during the period it was being run in the image that the founders created.
Yep!.... I deliberately skirted the rules on qualifiers to cover my clubs costs.
Apparently you did the same..
In fact...the last round of qualifiers were ALL not valid. (that is the only one I saw data for all Areas.)
It was a nice harmless racket... but it was a racket!
Apparently you did the same..
In fact...the last round of qualifiers were ALL not valid. (that is the only one I saw data for all Areas.)
It was a nice harmless racket... but it was a racket!
We're not on the same page. We didn't skirt any rules to cover costs. We continued to run our qualifiers in a manner consistent (actually, quite improved) from iterations in the past. New rules were placed upon us by a select few within US Sailing that made it more difficult (rather impossible in some cases) to comply. I tried to strike a balance between servicing the needs and desires of our local sailors and complying with new rules that we didn't get a say on, that didn't benefit us, and in many ways degraded the quality of the event. That said, we did have several years of 100% compliance in my area.
Our qualifiers were not a
racket
. We ran clean fair contests and had legitimate winners and/or runner-ups that went on to participate in the championship.
Or did you forget this detail?
How many times were you asked to be an area rep and how many years did you serve? You and I both know your motivation to run and sail in your qualifier was to give credablity to your passion, handicap racing. You never had any passion for the Alter Cup and its format.
Guys, attacking each other isn't really helpful. Seems like no one can mention US Sailing here without people freaking out. It does not serve us well.
My point was simply that there is a long history of us not being very good at making people want to join, well before my tenure. My goal is to find ways to improve that.
Mike
After Larry's comments about kids sailing hobie cats at the presser yesterday - the 1st agenda item should be about getting a call into Larry and giving the US Multihull council's plan to make that happen.
Or at least get him to throw some money at US Sailing Multihull kids training programs.
Believe me, Larry will not just throw money at you unless he sees that you have a plan and the capability of pulling it off.
My point was simply that there is a long history of us not being very good at making people want to join, well before my tenure. My goal is to find ways to improve that.
Mike
Mike, if you want to get more people to join, first you have to answer this simple question (a question I've heard too many times at regattas):
What's in it for me?
You have to come up with $60 worth of 'Value' to sell it to non-members, and guess what, a regatta or two, ie. the Alter Cup and a qualifier, ain't it for most of us.
Oh, by the way, I did just last week, renew my membership through the Golden Anchor program, but only because I got a nice letter from whom ever is in charge of that program now (Liz?), and I got a $10 Discount! Oh, and I needed a new rule book anyway!
I'll still probably never attend an Alter Cup qualifier or the Alter Cup itself. It's not my thing. It brings out the worst in people, just look back at this thread.
I sail for fun, to relax, not for drama, I get enough of that at home with the 4 kids.
And right now, for the first time in 4 days, I see sun outside, and there's some wind, so I'm going sailing! Man is my lake full now! It's come up about 5 feet this summer!
See Ya!
Tim, the struggle to administer the event has nothing to do with the teams' experience during the event. You should give it a go in whatever incarnation is available. The fleet, almost to a man (or woman), hasn't a clue that constant, year-round planning is going on. Further, most don't spend time on the forum. If you like racing, you'd like the Alter Cup.
I'm sure Larry would consider contributing MATCHING funds to whatever we (USS) can muster.