What boat do I want?

Mark,

I believe a I-17 is a one person boat ( in a race).

I have one,....well pleased.......fast and one line to pull.

I load up the boat to take the family to the local island here.....so,...it is multi tasked!

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

I think it depends on how you wish to compete. If you want to race with a crew, then the I-20 is the boat for you. At 340 lbs., it is the choice. If you believe that you are going to race double handed at 240 lbs., then the I-18 or Hobie Tiger or the Nacra F-18. If you want to race single handed and take the combined 340 lbs. out for a nice sail, then I think the I-17R with spinnaker can't be beat!

Les Gallagher

Inter 17R USA 104

little yellow boat

Check out the Marstrom M18

Sorry for blowing my own horn but after someone mentioned the M18 is just have to add the Taipan 4.9 I handles bith crew and solo sailing perfectly. Both are regulated in the T4.9 class rules and the T4.9 1-up will beat both I-17 and Hobie FX-one. Put a genaler on both and you beat them still by the same margin. The T4.9 with genaker will be part of the F16 HP formula and be regulated as such. In this framework it will run with F18 (inter 18) on equal handicap / performance. It may be beat the I-20 in light conditions for it has much less wetted surface. The I-20 will beat it in medium to heavy air though but than again you can't really solo a I-20 without someone keeping an eye on you. The Taipan 4.9 is cheaper than I-18 and I-20 and more or less the same as the I-17.

You can het support from the F16 HP group of which 5 T4.9+genaker F16HP sailors are in the USA.

Just a note to focus your attention to alternatives to the Inter line. I'm sure they are all good boats.

For more info on F16 HP go to www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/

On this page there is also a comparison between the F16HP i-up boats and the A-cat, I-17 and hobie FX-one.

My personal opinion. Hobie FX-one is about as fast as Hobie 17 and awkward to sail (I've sailed it) and the I-17 at my club with comes across the finish line together with my Prindle 18 spi. And my P18 spi is an oldy with hardly any stifness left and I'm training a new crew.

Wouter

Mark - Either the I17R or the I20 sound like your 2 best choices. If you sail mostly with a crew and some singlehanding, then go for the I20. If you sail mostly solo and sometimes with a crew, the maybe the I17R is best. For racing, the I20 can't be beat in SoCal - we have quite a few of them here in San Diego. I'm going on vacation tomorrow, but if you want maybe we can arrange a test sail for you later in the month.

BTW, if you want to solo an I20 in stronger winds, it is easy to depower by rolling up the jib and sailing mainsail-only. The vertical jib battens make this work quite well.

Sail fast and have fun,
Alan Thompson
I20 - San Diego

Wouter,et al,

1. Checked out the T-4.9 page,....real nice.

2. Notice the first pic,...solo rider,..non existant waves,...look how the hulls ride,.....not alot of boat above the water here,...looks like a 1 foot wave would submerge it.

3. Look at pic # 2,...by using the pic #1 as reference,..this team must be the size of the'BackStreet Boys"!

4. As you know,..I am still trying to figure out my I17,...but there looks to be limitations here,...it is weather conditions.

5. Looks like this presentation of T4.9 stats show a 'ALL GET OUT' lake or river or bay vessel. The sail area is maxed,...and the boat has to be good cause you and Rick have one,.....all good points.

6. Honestly, I would be hesitant to take this vessel in the ocean. 15-20 mph wind with normal 3 footer wave,....alot of compromise is going to fly off the drawing board and stat sheet.

7. Heck, we were spin flying in an I20 last week in 15 mph and could 'jump' 80% of a 3 footer to be caught by the last 20%( of the back of the next wave) and burying the bows to the crossbars everytime!!!! We had to back off! As you know, the I20 bow sections are huge! I really want to see a report of the T-4.9 in those conditions.

OK,...good sharing info with you all!

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

The T4.9 doesn't necessarily ride high over the waves, but it will punch through them pretty nicely. And if you are talking a 6 ft wave ( trough to peak) yeah having 4 ft less length is probably going to hurt you, just as I wouldn't want to be sailing an I20 in 15-20 mph single handed. It just depends on want your going to be doing.

I did get to do some drag racing yesterday in the Ocean against a Fox, I20, and I18. Now as usual I left the beach a little late for the downwind run which was in about 10 mph and 2-3 ft waves. After about an hour and a half of running the chute, the boats that were on the horizon when we left were still on the horizon, it was hard to tell how much our position had changed, but we didn't get blown away or anything. Heading back the wind picked up to about 15 mph and everyone got off the beach relatively together and we raced upwind for about 2+ hours in 3 foot chop. When we hit the beach, we were about 15 minutes behind the 20 footers and just ahead of the I18 (with 320 lbs of crew) The boat is fast and drives through the surf pretty well. The T4.9 is the most versatile that I have ever seen. From single handing to double trapping to flying a chute, she scoots! So given the above criteria, you would be missing out if you didn't consider it.

>>Wouter,et al,

>>1. Checked out the T-4.9 page,....real nice.

Indeed

>>2. Notice the first pic,...solo rider,..non existant waves,...look how the hulls ride,.....not alot of boat above the water here,...looks like a 1 foot wave would submerge it.

Don't forget the boat weight alot less and need less bouyancy therefor. Ofcourse it is derived from A-cats and that explains the fine bows.

>>4. Working out I-17

So am I together with a club member of mine. I'm racing him nearly all the time in clubraces every weekend. We seem to be just as fast, but I really think he should be me upwind.

5. Looks like this presentation of T4.9 stats show a 'ALL GET OUT' lake or river or bay vessel. The sail area is maxed,...and the boat has to be good cause you and Rick have one,.....all good points.

It did really well in Texel 1999 and that was NUCLEAR. Short stubby waves, big swell like waves from the start (I never went that fast on a P16, 165 kg right on the rearbeam) and min wind = 20 knots, storm passed during the race and it peaked to 35- 40 knots. Halve of fleet had to retire due to damage or other problems. Taipan 4.9 came in within top 20 all out I think. That is the ONLY 16 footer in the TOP 20 all-out so not on handicap. I'm sure the Taipan can handle more than a lake or bay, otherwise I won't be getting one here on the North sea (No lake or bay or river for me).

>>6. Honestly, I would be hesitant to take this vessel in the ocean. 15-20 mph wind with normal 3 footer wave,....alot of compromise is going to fly off the drawing board and stat sheet.

I would and so did a F16HP group member in the gulf of mexico at 35 knots with a genaker. He almost fell of the back he wrote but otherwise than that no complaints.

7. Heck, we were spin flying in an I20 last week in 15 mph and could 'jump' 80% of a 3 footer to be caught by the last 20%( of the back of the next wave) and burying the bows to the crossbars everytime!!!! We had to back off! As you know, the I20 bow sections are huge! I really want to see a report of the T-4.9 in those conditions.

Personally I would rather bury a T's bows than an I-18 or I-20. I would certainly also prefer te I-17 bows in this respect. I've sailed the KL warp alot in rough wave conditions and it has the same narrow hulls. I loved it. No banging or stop and go. It just slowed down a little and than climbed up the wave again. Really controllable.

>>OK,...good sharing info with you all!

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

Good luck

Wouter

Thanks Chuck that I-18 remark was what I wanted to see.

The Taipan is up to it and indicates that the F16HP is on track with it's goal to at least eqaul F18 performance.

Was it a US I-18 or a F18 I-18 ?.

Yep, good news !!

Wouter

and for a 16 foot boat the T-4.9 is a rocket!

Dave

The Taipan 4.9 looks awesome for me. Does the 4.9 handle similar to an A cat when uni rigged? I like the fact I can right the boat alone!!!!! I am a little conserned about its worthiness in rough waters. Are there any Taipan owners in Southern California??

I-20 owners, can you sail uni rigged and is my 145 pounds a joke for this boat single handed?? Thanks for all the responses, I am narrowing it down.

Are you sure you are looking at a Taipan? I looked at the page and the first photo of a single-hander sailing downwind with a red spinnaker is a BIM16 not a Taipan 4.9. The pic below of Taipan 4.9 USA216 is being sailed by Lars Guck and PJ Shaffer who combined weigh 320+lbs, not what I would call 'Back Street Boys'. Now go to the pics of the grandfathered boats and take a look at the pic of AUS153 and talk about riding high on the water only the stern quarter is in the water.

There are several other plus points for the Taipan. First it is about 135lbs lighter than the I17. The I17 was measured by the Texel officers and the ISAF and was found to be 345lbs. Performance Catamarans were hyping the boat saying it was going to weigh 285lbs but after the independent measurers got through with the boat they dropped the weight from the promo materials. The Taipans are weighed at their championships and ARE at minimum weight of 215lbs for the uni and 230lbs for the sloop. This can be confirmed by the class association data.

Both boats have a 5 year warranty in the USA. What they do not tell you is the Inter's rig is only covered for 90 days, but the Taipan's rig is covered for a full year.The Taipan's is posted on the web site and so is the price, the Inter's are not. Hiding something?

Taipan is built with better materials, Kevlar/ S Glass hulls, Carbon Foils (same as used on the A Cat with a stronger casting).

The ability to sail both uni and sloop on the 4.9. Yes you can out two or more on the I17 but you still have the same sail plan. More crew weight and the same sail area equals lower performance in all but the strongest of winds. If it is that strong then take the jib off the 4.9 and it will be much easier to sail.

The Taipan 4.9 may be the fastest 16 foot sailing catamaran on the planet. In my long experience with multihulls, I've never seen anything so fast and agile in this size range. The Taipan will be at the top of any list in measures of speed potential; such as, speed-to-length, speed-to-weight, speed-to-physical exertion and speed-to-hassle.

Quote from multihull designer, sailor and resin maker Meade Gougeon at the sailing world test.

I am sure both the I17 and the Hobie FX are great boats but why sail a 350lb boat costing more than a lot of A Cat's or other perceived 'high tech' boats like the Taipan 4.9. I think the Stealth cat from the UK is also worth a close look at. It is very hard to explain to someone who has never sailed a light weight cat like an A, Taipan or Stealth how it feels. Not only is the handling and acceleration so much better but they are also much easier to sail in the upper wind speeds. It would be a shame not to try one of these 'modern' boats.

I was just reading about the BIM 16. It is lighter and faster?? than even the Taipan. The sight says they are available in the US. Any body have one of these, or familiar with this boat? The BIM sight is also in Italian, I don't speak it.

Mark,

There is only one Bim 16 in the USA at this time and it is owned by WF Oliver and based in Virginia Beach. There has been on real test's done between the tow boats. There are differences but I believe the weight is almost the same. The Taipan's main is slightly larger and the Taipan has a wider beam. The Bim does have a taller carbon mast where the Taipan's is aluminum. The Taipan is built with much better materials and this is reflected in the price and I am not sure of the warranty with the Bim. Taipan being Kevlar / S Glass and vinylester resin where the Bim is glass and polyester resin. There is no jib for the Bim 16 and I do not believe that the construction would handle one even with a compression strut. The Bim comes with a spinnaker as standard.

The Taipan will work out about $2000 more for a uni with a spinnaker over the Bim. Like all things it is up to the individual as to what they are willing to spend and what quality there are looking for. IMHO either boat is light years ahead of anything coming out of Southern CA.

If you are interested in importing a boat you might want to look at the Stealth from the UK. Very well built by one of the UK's top builders and designed by top UK Tornado sailor this boat has a pedigree. Comes with a carbon mast. I do not know the price but shipping to the USA is easy and the import duty is less than 2%.

There are a group of sailors working on a F16HP (Formula 16 High Performance) class and the Stealth, Bim and Taipan fall within the proposed rules. This would be an exciting 'owner' driven class if it can get established (which I feel it will) so looking at the big picture finding a boat that will fit your needs and fit this proposed class could pay great dividends in the long run.

The choices at this time are the Stealth, Taipan 4.9 or Bim16 for single-handed sailing and the Stealth and Taipan for double-handed sailing. I hope this helps.

www.sailfastusa.com/bimare/

www.stealthmarine.com

www.taipanamerica.com

Thanks, I was skeptical on the BIM since I havn't heard much about them. I have now seen a M18?? I can't seem to find any info on it though, anybody know anything? I just want the best boat for my needs.

BIM 16 official weight is 95 kg's (211 pounds) but was measured at 110 by Texel officials. This includes some safety gear but I feel BIM 16 is at least 100 Kg's. It is the cheapest 16 footer (F16HP), by far. I don't know what they go for in USA. Right now there is one BIM 16 in usa. BIM 16 hasn't got a jib officially though and it will need one for the F16HP. On the other hand your combined crew weight is so low that you'll be having alot of 2-up fun without the jib too.

They are sold by Chip Zenke who also sells the BIM A-cats. I think www.sailfastusa.com/bimare

try that link.

In EU the cost ratio of BIM 16/Taipan 4.9 is about 15000/27000 = 56 %. and the Taipan costs about US$ 11000,- (with spi) here in EU.

You can get the BIM 16 with alu mast or with a carbon mast. Taipan 4.9 is faster with its jib and mayb have some other small advantages.

When you want more info, ask me or to the F16HP webpage again and click on the grandfathered boats link. There is quite some info there and more mathematicall info will be publicized in the comming days and weeks.

Wouter

M18 is still in its prototype stages and I don't believe there are more around than three and probably all in Sweden. M18 is roughly an A-cat made wider and having more sailarea while it's weight is reduced by about 4 kg. And it has a genaker. It is fast but extreme for it is a all carbon construction and being from Marstrom will make it good but very expensive.

Wouter

Cat Sailors,

1. well, one thing is for sure,...my knowledge is VERY limited on what is available!

2. As for all the info on the Uni coming out,....what a great forum!

3. I hope no one took offense,...it was never intended!

4. I value all the comments,...keep them coming!

5. Maybe we will all meet in a regatta some day,....come on down to the Caribbean!

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

MArk, et al,

There is a boat available right now,..for you to consider. Rick White is selling a ( if still available) a Taipan 5.7.

Go to the classifieds of this site and sheck it out!

I see the price at $10,900USD

I also saw it last week on the auction page with a minimum bid of $9,900USD.

Comments gang?

Good boat for money, for sure!

Will it out do a I-20......comments

regards,

Bruce

St. Croix

Mark,

If your worried about the T4.9 in rough waters don't.

My home sailing club is on a lake but I sail in the Ocean when ever I get the chance.

I've sailed with 365lb on board in 20knots, not a particularly strong breese, but blowing against the tide that rounds a point . This makes the tidal flow, going against the wind and waves, very strong and the waves huge and very close together.

The sadistic race committe like to put the top mark just past the point. ( many crews go swimming on that mark rounding)

The 4.9 handles it easily.

I've sailed the same conditions one up and it's still a pleasure.

I don't see the Ocean as a problem. No more problem than the really steep short chop that we get on the southen end of the lake when a strong nor-easter is blowing.

I don't know about the durability of the other boats you are considering and so I won't comment.

All I can say is that you don't need to worry about the T4.9.