Infusion=Nacracorn? 
Infusion=Nacracorn? Don't be a hater!...But that's funny.
Someone brought a good point. Have we really INCREASED the TOTAL number of sailors, or rather consolidated them into one or two classes?
Hey guys, I had the most funny dream. 
I actually dreamed that Bill Vining was actually pushing the F16 angle in a catsailor post; (nightmere or wet dream ? you decide)
How silly of me , of course we all know that that would never ....
%@# DARN ! %^!@ !!! (rubbing my eyes!)
Am I still asleep !
Wouter
Now, I'm personally all for A-cat and F16 class growths but I have no illusions about the F18 being anything but the dominant class for many years to come; irrespectable of aspects like their overall weight.
Wouter
I actually dreamed that Bill Vining was actually pushing the F16 angle in a catsailor post; (nightmere or wet dream ? you decide)
How silly of me , of course we all know that that would never ....
%@# DARN ! %^!@ !!! (rubbing my eyes!)
Am I still asleep !
Wouter
Wouter has a sense of humor, who knew?
Consolidation is good. Are very large numbers even desirable?
Consolidation vs new sailors? We want/need new people to pitch in, organize and run nice regattas!
Of course we need new people, but how many? I think the first regatta I ever attended had 300 boats!
Personally, I think 25-40 boats is optimal.
Personally, I think 25-40 boats is optimal.
This way out of character for me but here goes.
Pete, what were you smoking back in those days? Are you going to pick the new people to "let in"? Hey, if there's "too many" boats, set up two courses. Should Rick and Mary not allow any new userid's unless they meet certain criteria?
I hope I'm mis-understanding something here. 
I wonder how many places there are in the U.S. now that can handle a 300-boat regatta.
I try to be succinct, that gets me in trouble! You're not misunderstanding, I'm not explaining thoroughly.
There are enough beach cats, at least here in Florida, to have a thriving sailing community, but we lack cohesiveness and coordination. No common goal.
I hope we can work with the people we have, to develope a high quality beach sailing "culture?"- the old "Hobie way of life" philosophy, rather than worrying about dwindling numbers of participants.
Sort of- "if you build it, they will come." The A cat/ F-16 phenomenon is the most hopeful and exciting thing I've seen in 15 years. Enough so that I'm willing to plunk down a fair piece of change to be able to participate!
300 boats would be wonderful, but to draw them we need to attract 25 or so on a regular basis.
btw- 300 boats take over 1 mile of beach.
btw x 2- before anyone asks, Lido Key (Sarasota) circa '76.
AMEN Mary, The last really big regatta I remember was the Hobie Mega a few years back. I didn't make it but if they ever held one again..........
Personally I think the Formula classes are here to stay. I like the idea of the F-18s going on a diet over 10 years. There seems to be a lot of intrest in the F-16 due to the lightness and the fact that you can both single & double hand the boat.
Lake Havasu?
As posted else where, There are really only 2 choices, the Tiger or Capricorn. Both are capable of winning and both are good all round boats. It then comes down to what competition you have in your area.
The tiger does have the additional benifit of an established international class and fleets all round the world. Makes for 2 classes in 1 - something that the other boats are unable to offer at the moment.
Tiger Mike
Thats much easier to answer - Bundy!
Tiger Mike
I could always just throw a little fuel on the fire with this statement from Nacra:
"Nacra F18 Infusion.
In Formula 18 racing, all producers have to try to top of the racing results and therefore on top of the market. All sailors know that Formula 18's are innovative racing machines and therefore will continue to change to meet the demands of the market.The Nacra Infusion is made with the latest production technology and hull design by a company famed for quality production. The Nacra Infusion is the most innovative sports catamaran on the World market.
The Nacra Infusion is the only production catamaran that is made with infusion technology."
OK - more popcorn, please!
Now you mention it, the Infusion is definatly the go - so far it has won 100% of the regattas it has entered. What other manufacturer can claim that????
Tiger Mike
However the fastest F-18 is the one that Bundy and Gashby are on
OK..... Hobie Tiger has won every F-18 Worlds with the exception of one. That was won by a Cirrus.
Now (popcorn ready)..... A large part of Hobies success is because of the sailors on them.... They have taken the smart route by employing Olympic Tornado campaigners to race. With minimum cost to them they are riding the wave of Government and private sponnsor funded training and sailor development..... The Olympic pros are indead in a different league to other sailors and it was a very smart move on Hobies behalf to utalise them..... Other manufactures should take note.
Now if you take out the top Tornado sailors from the results and then have another look....... Both the Tiger and Capricorn are very solid performers. With Booth and Bundy removed from the finishing results, the Capricorn was the next best placed boat in 3rd and a Capricorn was leading the event outright until it OCS in the last race and threw it away. This was also the Capricorn's 2nd Worlds after debuting at 5th in last years event...... Look out Tigers 
The old NACRA...... well there is a reason why they updated the design.... The new boat is untested on an International level and will be interesting to see how it compares to the Capricorn and Tiger.
I also believe the Flyer showed good pace at its first Worlds.... Have not heared much about it since.
Hahahaha yes Steve, the Capricorn is odviously the best boat because we shouldn't count the first 2 boats because IMHO those sailors are too good!
Thats like saying I would have won the football game last week except I missed the goal.
Tiger Mike
P.s. I prefer the M&M's over popcorn.
Shouldn't we all? Humans, not boats. The obesity rate is out of control in the US (especially in the chitlins belt).
Does anyone with the "inside F18" info think this could happen? I think it would have a positive effect.
The weight issue was considered at the July 2004 World Council meeting and was rejected. To my knowledge there is no current push to lower the class weight.
Tiger Mike
Definatly not increased the total number of sailors in any measurable form. However! the class is not something a new sailor would want to learn on. You can sail with a novice cres but at the very least the helm needs to know what is going on or things get very wet very quickly.
The real attraction is people looking at them on the beach and seeing them flying about in the bay. Impossible to say how many new sailors it brings to the sport into some of the feeder catagories.
Tiger Mike
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In order to stay current F18 really should consider a 10 year weight reduction program
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Shouldn't we all? Humans, not boats. The obesity rate is out of control in the US (especially in the chitlins belt).
Does anyone with the "inside F18" info think this could happen? I think it would have a positive effect.
I am on the F18 mailing list and a proposal to reduce the minimum weight of the F18 was turned down.
IMO, there are several reasons.
The current fleet would be obsolete, and this would alienate the current owners.
The current manufacturers, and there are lots of them, are not the ones in support of this change.
The F16 and F18HT formulas are out there today, but their support from manufacturers is significantly less than F18. Many of the manufacturers who support F18HT and/or F16 are also developing or introducing F18 models. The market and the support of the manufacturers indicate that the F18 rules should not change too significantly. Most of the accepted rule changes are to clarify existing rules or to grandfather, although temporarily, some features that were already on existing boats but in violatation of the rules.
Lastly, the rules have created very equal sailing that seems to put the best sailor on the podium, not the best boat.
The intent of the rules is to answer the question of this thread, "What is the BEST F18?????" The one with the best team on it.
So if most of the boats depend on the crew anyway, why not go with the least expensive- most support available. So which one is least expensive?
Folks,
Let's run some numbers (my estimates):
Change mast to carbon - ~25-30 lb weight reduction
Lighter daggerboards - ~10-15 lbs total
Lighter rudders - ~5 lbs total
Carbon tillers and crossbars, u-joint connections - ~7-12 lbs
Carbon beams - ~15-20 lbs
Take all the "NASCAR" stickers off the sails - ~10 lbs!
Spinnaker launch system equivalent to T-cat - ~5 lbs
OK, so we get 75 - 100 lbs.You do this for a total cost of around $6K, keep your hulls, and possibly re-cut the luff curve of your mainsail. You could also do this in a planned phase out from the old to the new over 5 years to ease the costs (like pulling a tooth but it gets better).
If you solely race F-18 around the buoy's, you'd probably love these changes. If you race long distance through surf breaks, you may oppose them.
The Snipe class did it in the 60's and the change improved the class (they went from a 425 lb 16' dinghy to a 350 lb 16' dinghy). Why can't F-18 make this evolution?
A 300-325 lb F-18 is a lot better than a 400 lb F-18. I just could not spend that amount of money on a boat that heavy. IMO, F-18 (by the nature of its purpose to encourage some development) will suffer if it does not move towards lighter weight with current available technology and components. I agree with a previous poster that participation you saw in the Nacra classes, P-19, and H-20 in the early to late 90's is not currently being matched by F-18 in the US. What about Europe?
The designs (Tiger, Capricorn, Infusion) are beautiful. The construction and components technology is dated compared to what BIM, AHPC, and others are doing with A-cats and F-16.
Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230
But no one bought 18HTs
Consolidation of performance oriented sailors
If we are consolidating racers into one or two double handed performance classes... How big will the F18 class grow?
2005 Total Nationals/worlds US and Canada
Hobie 20’s 160 total and 32 national
Tigers 96 total and 43 national
Nacra 20’s ~125 total and 15 national
Nacra F18’s ~50 total and 20 national
Tornado ~25 total and 8 national
Totals 431 total and 118 national
~ = my wild butt guess as to the number of boats that competed in one race
Hobie numbers seem to include all class members... not neccarily those that competed in one race (76 H20's were scored with total points)
My point is simply that the number of racers who WANT to compete as a two man team is really small and so F18 class growth may start to slow down.
IF.... everyone in North America agreed to sail F18's... (and pigs flew) the total fleet at the nationals would be around 120 boats!
Just a reality check! You still have to solve the problem that these racers are really spread out in the country and getting a decent turnout of 10 boats at a regatta is very very tough.
For a reality check!
I think Wouter reported that he would have about 15 or so level rated spin cats at JUST HIS CLUB.!
At least in the US....was this not b/c the big manufactureres did not get behind th 18HTs?
Basically, PC and H set the trend in the US for beachcats. I bet F16 would not see as much growth were it not for Vectorworks building the Blade. What if PC offered the 5.0 with F16 rigs. That would be interesting.
The only way the F18 will use SlimFast is if PC and H see economic incentive. At this point there is not economic incentive to make a change to the rules. It would take half the F18 fleet dumping their boats and go somewhere else (not going to happen) for any changes. They cannot afford to alienate their current sailors.
The only other current day problem F18 has is class division. What if H forbids PC in their H regattas and PC forbids any changes to their platform (sail maker, hardware, etc.) and mutually creates a divide in the F18 fleet? F18s are here to stay (as is) until PC and H decide differently.
Well, not no one but the class failed to sustain itself.
I think you point to a critical factor in class success... the class sociology or esprit de corp ... Stuart Walker pointed to this and noted the essential contributions of class leaders AND the culture that makes people feel they belong to a group that is up and about something in the world. Some of the Hobie class's are able to do this extremely well. The 16's in particular have a core group that go racing and go to national events. The A class seems to be generating a similar culture. You sort of worry about the F18's because they can and have fractured along sectarian lines... which undercuts the esprit de core and camraderie that you need to sustain a group.
Its kind of funny... People go head over heels about A cats but they just seem to like the F18's ... what they care about is the competition.
Now... if they dropped a hundred pounds... would the F18 generate passion????
Thats like saying I would have won the football game last week except I missed the goal.
Tiger Mike
P.s. I prefer the M&M's over popcorn.
The skill level of an TOP full time pro Olympian is in a different league to a great amature or semi pro sailor..... Now only if ISAF and IOC made it a requirement for Olympic athletes to work a 9 to 5 x 7 day week off the water job....
If the intire fleet were either amatures or all Olympic pros..... Then we will have a better indication of what is the dominant class....
If you slide a first grade football team into your local comp....... who do you think will win.
P.s. Now M&M's....... mmmmmmmmm...... got to be the peanut M&M's
Mike.... Also let us know when the next decent regatta is on in Vic. Particularly one that will be well represented by F-18s (even Frankston Regatta)..... My family lives down there and would love to head down with the boat.
I have come out of Tornadoes into the F-18 class and whilst the T is a lot quicker on yardstick..... The sensation of speed between the 2 boats and F-16 are not that great.... What is noticeable is that in the fresh stuff ie average 20 knots plus..... You cannot push the F-18 downwind as much as the T...... The extra 2 foot on the bow makes a world of difference......
What many sailors find important is the thrill of close big fleet sailing. Take a look at the H16.... The reason why it is so succesfull is because it is cheap....... within reach of many people and therefor races in large numbers.... So if you want to sail 2 up.... Why not choose an F-18 over an F-16..... The F-18 is a little quicker, the sensation of speed is to close to notice, and the increased waterline benifits the F-18s in the fresh stuff. The F-18 also has a very large established and still fast growing fleet.......
Don't get me wrong, I quiet like the F-16, however the F-18s have the fleet numbers as well as the performance gains that comes with a longer waterline........ So I chose an F-18... If I wanted to race small fleets, I will return to the Tornado class. However if you have larger numbers of F-16s in your area......... Then why get an F-18......
Let's run some numbers (my estimates):
Change mast to carbon - ~25-30 lb weight reduction
Lighter daggerboards - ~10-15 lbs total
Lighter rudders - ~5 lbs total
Carbon tillers and crossbars, u-joint connections - ~7-12 lbs
Carbon beams - ~15-20 lbs
Take all the "NASCAR" stickers off the sails - ~10 lbs!
Spinnaker launch system equivalent to T-cat - ~5 lbs
OK, so we get 75 - 100 lbs.You do this for a total cost of around $6K, keep your hulls, and possibly re-cut the luff curve of your mainsail. You could also do this in a planned phase out from the old to the new over 5 years to ease the costs (like pulling a tooth but it gets better).
If you solely race F-18 around the buoy's, you'd probably love these changes. If you race long distance through surf breaks, you may oppose them.
The Snipe class did it in the 60's and the change improved the class (they went from a 425 lb 16' dinghy to a 350 lb 16' dinghy). Why can't F-18 make this evolution?
A 300-325 lb F-18 is a lot better than a 400 lb F-18. I just could not spend that amount of money on a boat that heavy. IMO, F-18 (by the nature of its purpose to encourage some development) will suffer if it does not move towards lighter weight with current available technology and components. I agree with a previous poster that participation you saw in the Nacra classes, P-19, and H-20 in the early to late 90's is not currently being matched by F-18 in the US. What about Europe?
The designs (Tiger, Capricorn, Infusion) are beautiful. The construction and components technology is dated compared to what BIM, AHPC, and others are doing with A-cats and F-16.
Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230
Why not change??? Firstly the class is currently growing faster than any class in the world. Why risk everything they have built over the last 5-7 years???
Tiger Mike