What is the BEST F18?????

Sorry - prefer the chocolate ones myself. As for F18 stuff the last decent regatta for the season was a couple of weeks ago won by yours truely at Mornington for the Volvo boats. We have a F18 regatta every weekend at Frankston with 14 boats fronting up most weekends.

Tiger Mike

P.S. Is the Wangi June regatta still a big F18 event?? With a bit of arm twisting I might be pursuaded to head north again mid year

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P.S. Is the Wangi June regatta still a big F18 event?? With a bit of arm twisting I might be pursuaded to head north again mid year

I'd expect it would be.....

This is an interesting thread, and I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives here. I have a couple of thoughts to offer, though they aren't any more valid than anything else presented here so far.

Best boat? My hands-on experience is limited to two of them - Hobie Tiger and Nacra F-18. I generally agree with the folks who said, in one way or another, that it really depends on who's sailing it. I strongly believe that the performance of the two platforms that I've crewed on is remarkably similar overall. I have been on these two boats for almost five years now - crewed on my first Tiger at the 2001 Area D Eliminations.

I have built both boats out-of-the-box several times. Like anyone, I have developed a preference for how to rig the front of the boat, which requires a few changes from the stock set-up. The only top-shelf team I know that sails a straight stock boat from either camp is Greg and Jacques (Tiger). I have a very slight preference for building the Nacra over the Tiger due to a very few bits and pieces - I think both manufacturers could stand to put better lines on the boats, but that's a very minor gripe. I've noticed that Hobie has made some improvements recently.

My opinion on results is that the Tiger has had much more consistent attendance and representation in the US - for whatever reason, the best Nacra teams don't have the stick-to-it attitude that makes for long-term good results in Formula 18 fleets. Internationally, I think that the Hobie factories do a better job than Nacra supporting a select few teams in a way that is reflected in the results. Nacra's support has not been as consistent and long-term oriented. We should all agree that a team's preparation and time on the boat factor into positive results.

As far as growth in the class? It is growing - I'm not sure that trying to determine if it is growing with new sailors or through the losses from other fleets is relevant other than for academic discussion. From my small-pond view, I can say that I am buying an F-18, and that one of my good friends who used to race a Nacra 6.0 (but has been inactive lately) is also buying one. Does that "scavenge" from the 6.0 fleet? This purchase pulls me out of the crew pool (I hope to keep my Union card ) but the skippers I've crewed for in the class will continue to race, I'm sure. This adds two more boats to the fleet without really taking anything away from another class from a "local" sort of perspective. Nationally, it is telling that Formula 18 boats have been selected for the Alter Cup three times since 2002, though we're not getting the F-18 we'd hoped for next month.

Quality of events? I have said on this forum before that the F-18 Nationals in Virginia last August was the best event I've been to in years. Why? It wasn't the conditions, or the food or give-aways, or anything like that. It was the people and the attendance - the event put two groups of sailors together that I normally don't get to spend time with at a single event - and they were from all over. It was also the nature of formula racing - there were plenty of both of the US boats present of various ages, but it was still a matter of who got across the finish line first. I don't have anything against Portsmouth racing at all, but straight-up is more fun when you can manage it. I feel the results from the event are not reflective of the boats' performance at all - if you were choosing based on that regatta's trophies alone, you'd not be getting a full picture. Time on the boat, preparation, teamwork, the commitment to stick it out to the end, and to a smaller degree factory support, all played much bigger roles than the boats themselves. I don't want to overstate the factory support comment - if Greg and Jacques worked somewhere other than Hobie, I just don't know if they would get to sail as much. What a dream job, even if they aren't making what they could in other pursuits.

Overall, the debate over cause and effect can continue ad infinitum, but at last call for alcohol, the class is still growing in the US, the boats have thus far been very equal in overall performance, and the team makes the difference. I've enjoyed being a member, and I'm looking to being an owner in this class.

ps - my favorite M&M? Morrelli and Melvin

Whilst not increasing the number of new sailors, I believe a class of fast, fun and reliable boats with good class racing encourages sailors to transition from cruising to recreational racing, and to buy and use new boats. We've got far too many unused boats lying around, mute testament that too many people have lost interest.

F18 has started catching on here too, with Tigers leading in numbers. We're hoping to switch the N6.0 for a Tiger soon

Hi John,
Notice.. the factors that mattered most to you were social factors. It was not about how nice the boat sailed... (I am not saying the F18's sail poorly)

My point is that for many sailors (myself included), How nice the boat sails... IS the paramount factor because we are not JUST racing it... So,light weight, one or two up versatility and how well the boat communicates to you trump the strong class aspects. (IMO the Tornado is the best sailing two man boat that I know of).

Wouter noted the number of lightweight and faster boats that are being made and sailed.... I would turn around the negative view (they have not made a succesful class) and note... Hey... there are lots of people who want high performance machines that speak to them.

The single handed sailors are a good case in point where the A class boats offer light weight, high performance and a boat that people just go nuts over and are now building the social class to go along with the boat.

Apparantly, F18 sailors were concerned about weight enough to consider a weight reduction program along the lines that Bob H suggested. One day they may revist the issue again. I argue that such a boat would offer the best of both worlds (performance and social) to sailors

Hey Mark -

Valid points, but staying on topic regarding selection of an F-18, my point is that boats from two different manufacturers of various ages and iterations are generally equal in my view. This "level playing field" makes the question "which F-18 is the best" more about your skill, commitment, and teamwork than the branding.

We can debate what attracts individual sailors to a specific class elsewhere. Join me at the bar?

Bar... that I will!! (But that pracitce won't get me down to F18 weight)

Which F18.... I agree with you. I would bet money it correlates to time on the water for the teams... unlike Allen Iverson... (Practice... who needs practice...) practice and coaching are the major discriminators.

(Now practice and coaching are things I wish I had time and money for)

For what it's worth. I haven't seen any evidence that one hull design is measurably faster then the other. It seems very much like the A cat's where even the pre flyer hull shapes (eg Marstrom) are competitive at least at the USA national level... (good thing too cause that boat just won't die).

I am curious to see how the new alu Performance mast works and compares to the Capricorn wing mast versus the more traditional tear drop shapes of Hobie and Nacra F18's ... AND... with the formula concept... if you think that the mast/main sail shapes are faster... you can always upgrade.

Good luck with the Alter Cup... It looks like a hell of a fleet! I was delighted to see Matt Keenan and Ed Nolan could take Area C's slot in lieu of Bill Jeffers. Hey we have two horses to root for up here with the Jason's and Keenan/Nolan going.

Mark

Sorry, Mark - we now claim the Jasons as Floridians and Area D sailors.

Thread Hijack Complete.

John and Mark thanks for the info.

Matt

There is a perception with some sailors around here that the F18 is an expensive class to get into. I think (hope) that as the class matures a bit and boats get older, 2nd hand values will make the class more affordable for all.

It is a double edged sword, we need to have the depreciation slow enough so that the guys buying new boats without getting roasted in the 2nd hand market and at the same time having enough difference to build a thriving 2nd hard market.

One thing that most F18's have going for them is a relatively long racing life which is great for the class.

Tiger Mike

Mike,

I am more of a lurker in this forum than a participant, but please accept my comment (as personal viewpoint) when I say that you sound like an advertisement for a certain catamaran.

I don't condem your view, particularly in this thread of "what is the best...."

GARY

The American M&M's is obviously the
Morelli and Melvin's Nacra F18-INfusion that was designed by Morelli and Melvin.

GARY

Hey Gary -

M&M also designed my Hobie Wave.

Why am I picturing a short fat red gey along side a taller chubby yellow guy.....

Actually, it's a terrible comparison to begin with...but it's more like saying they won the football game because of their shoulder pads.

Maybe the question should be: What is the best boat for Tornado699? I don't know what boat is better, but the best boat for you would probably be the one you can sail the most against other similar boats. Where do you live? What is happening at the local regattas? Are they open or not?
Around here the only boat to have was a H16, now the Tiger fleet is growing. If you are in a Hobie only area then go with a Tiger. If not get what you like.

Where exactly is this F16 class growth? Anyone have results from a class regatta (no handicap) anywhere?

they had a full class at tradewinds this year

Hi Gary,

Yep - I sail a tiger for the exact reasons I spelled out above. I tried to keep my comments objective in acknowledging (sp???) the Capricorn and (hope) I was clear that you would not be dissapointed with either boat. I do speak from personal experience having sailed on & against both.

Cheers,

Tiger Mike

I cannot agree with lowering the weight of the Formula 18. It is what it is. This is a formula class that seems more like a one-design class. I like that about it. Here you can have whatever boat you want manufacturing-wise and there are good to great used boats on the market. If we start to change too much from the original rules we will alienate some sailors. If I recommended a used boat to a new class member I do not want to be handicapping them from the beginning. This is what would happen if we start to change the class rules too much. We seem to be settling down to some good rules now with few changes happening.

There are other classes of boats that have been around a lot longer than Formula 18s that stay with the rules. For example a Finn is still a single-handed boat that weighs in at 400lbs. It is still has pretty large numbers sailing it. There are not many times that I “hate” the weight of a Formula 18, at almost 400lbs. I never think about it on the water. Yes, I have sailed an A-Cat and know what it is like to sail a boat that is lighter than I am. What is interesting about this class, in my opinion, is that sailing a slightly underpowered boat really makes you think about slight adjustments, giving us better understanding.

In answer to the best Formula 18? The one that I am on at the starting line or on the water at all is the best. I sail my Tiger and a friends Nacra F18. I like sailing either boat at the time I am on them. If you are trying to find the fastest look at the results, put them in a spreadsheet and rank the sailors on them, too much work. I think you will find there is little difference. If you are the best in the land, Booth, Thomas, Bundock, Lovell, many others to add here, you will be at the top on any of them.

Later,
Dan