Which cat is the fastest?

It's going to be difficult to sort fact from fiction in this thread!

I would certain rank these as the fastest - although I would say that the Marstom 20 (there are two that race in the southeastern US) has not proven to be the performer we all expected it to be. 30 knots? While I think 30 knots is possible in a short burst (just before capsize) I don't think it is realistic to be able to sustain anything near 30 knots on any of these boats. I have not seen an Eagle in competition with other boats but I suspect that it might scare off the Olympic Tornado for outright speed. I have taken part in extensive racing between Nacra 20s and the Marstrom 20s and the Marstrom has displayed a moderate advantage over the Nacra (especially considering that it is about 1/2 the weight AND wider).

Olympic Tornado
Carbon Eagle

Marstrom 20
Nacra 20

Super Taipan

The one Randy Smyth is driving.

It strikes me that even though the M20 seems by the specs to be way faster than anything out there, there are quite a few who have the same impression as you Jake. Considering that Marstom has quite a bit of experience from A-cat sailing, one would expect the M20 to have a fast hull design. Being 30 kg lighter than the Eagle 20 should also give it an advantage. Still, you are not the first one, Jake, to be somewhat disappointed by its actual performance.

All though maybe not possible to sustain over a longer distance, 30 knots in a 20' cat is quite impressive!

There are many factors that make a beachcat fast! The most important [IMHO] is crew execution, sails available and their R&D that was put into them and the built in abilities [hull design, dagger vs center, carbon mast with or with out rotater, self tacking jib, etc. that the boats designer put into the boat. And finally the crew weight/bouancy factor in as well. You can go to any major regatta and see the latest hot boat finishing in the middle due to anyone of these factors.

For example when I bought my Tornados from Sail Craft in 1973 I thought I was fast until I saw Reg White [British Gold Medalist]sail a T about 100lbs heavier right past me. I caught a severe cold from him blowing my doors offffff...

Another example is the SC20TR Roberts sails. Is that boat that much faster or is Roberts that good a sailor. I think its the latter.

Its takes competition to reach a boats full potential. If you sail mixed classes the fastest design boats mistakes are exponential to that of the slow boats because the ratings don't take everything [sailor/crew skill, crew weight, etc.]into account mainly because there isn't an absolutely accurate way to do that.

Basically fast guys will make any boat go well.

thom
F25c 009
ARC22 2234
FMS 20 57

Keep in mind fastest as in top speed is not the same as speed around a course. For example, at the right wind angle the Hobie 16 is fast or for another the Tornado's top speed is limited by lift on the stern driving the bow under.

For top speed look at the speed runs made in England. I don't know if anyone is currently running them.

For speed around a course, it mostly depends on the skill of the driver and how well a boat is developed.

Upwind the A cat is the fastest.

Nil's A cat with spin will compete with the M20 and Tornado for fastest up and down.

Bill

Here is a story, I hope its not too long. I used to be in motorcycles. There was a gentleman at a dealer one day bragging about his new Z1000 (this was years ago). It just so happens that a manufacturers rep was there. Naturally a challenge was thrown down. The rep took a bike of almost equal size (a few cc's smaller even) and they took to the road. Well the rep blew the Z1000 away. Then he suggested they switch bikes. He beat him again!! So the moral of this story is and it has been proven again and again, each boats potential is determined by its occupants skill. Thats why in a mixed race you will almost always see some of the "smaller" boats beating the 20's boat for boat. Its not that the boat is faster, its who can make it go fast.

So, my suggestion is fwiw, get something you like and learn to sail it as best you can. Most of all, have fun. Otherwise its like a job you despise, you won't want to go there anymore.

Peace and fair winds,
Clayton
S27 (size does matter!) I can carry more beer!

The standard A-cat would beat the M18 and category 1 18sq's upwind, you think ?

Think again !

Besides the name of the game is "reach the finish line first" NOT "reach the A-mark first" !

For the remainder I agree with the statement that there are really only "fast crews" that seem to excell on almost any catamaran given to them.

Also I don't believe any 30 knots claim for a 20 foot cat or smaller. I think the top speed clocked anywhere up till now is 25 knots.

If I have to point to a singlehand I would would say Eagle 20 Carbon in sloop attire

Wouter

in theory you can just look at the ratings figures to get your answer. i wouldn't be surprised if the various ratings systems do not agree however.
also the wind and sea conditions will have bearing on the answer. for example the tornado seems to be the fastest heavy weather boat around a course which has shoals, whereas some of the other boats are optimized for more moderate conditions and all deepwater.

Is every single cat the same in that there is a point off or into the wind it is, its fastest. ? Oh last year up at Gilligans was'nt there someone who logged 40mph on his gps in that storm with a Hobie 17

I clocked 110kph = 59 knots with my GPS last saterday while sailing my cat.

I don't believe that reading either. We all know how undependable instantanious GPS speed readings are.

Show us the track with at least 60 second before and after that measurement showing 40 mph and I will show you a very suspect speed increase (drop)

Wouter

I was there, I think he posted that speed as he was catapulted into the air when the storm blew through.

I would like to rephrase the question, which cat under 20', given same crew skills, same wind- and weather conditions, is the the fastest? Undoubtedly a tough question to answer, but surely someone one the forum has any opinions.

Mine still stand as stated above

Is it still the Tornado Sport and /or the Marstrom 20?

Well it's between the Supercat 20 Tall Rig, the Eagle, CFR20, Marstrom 20, Inter20, and the Tornado.

Given under 8 knots I'd have to go with the light boats or the Supercat. In the heavier stuff I'd go with the Tornado.

Fact is nobody on this continent has seen the Eagle yet. So it's hard to have an informed opinion. My guess is it will run about like the CFR20 and Marstrom 20.

I'd like to see a race with some of the best sailors between the three light boats. It's never happened to my knowledge. So everything else is speculation as to which is faster.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Roberto (Semp Toshiba) was putting together his custom built Eagle in Florida earlier this year.

All the laws of physics still apply, the only variable is hull shape and most of them are now pretty close to the same (long and skinny). So at 20', the lightest boat with the most sail area and a wide platform to control the power in a blow (most righting moment), should be the fastest boat. The rest is up to the sailors.

Sounds like an SC20TR to me...

thom

In heavy stuff I would go with the SC20. It will take alot more abuse than a T and with the 12' beam its more forgiving.

thom

I disagree, it strongly depends on wind speed. I do not have any experience with the M18 but, I have watched A-Class against Cat 1 18 sq for 3 years and have sailed in it for 1 year.

Upwind:

The A-class has an advantage in very light wind

The A-class has an advantage from the point the A's fly a hull until the 18 sq starts to trap. From that point until the A's can't control it's even. After that the 18 sq's have the advantage.

Downwind.

It's even until the A's go wild. After that the A's are faster until it's too scary to wild thing (I have never seen an 18 sq go wild.)

This has been an gradual development. When the A's first appeared in my area 4-5 years ago, the 18 sq was faster. But, the A-class skippers have been getting faster mostly due to improved techniques

All of this depends on the skipper having enough experience to sail the optimum course for wind and wave.

Does anyone now of web-sites where I can find info about the Supercat 20 and the CFR 20?

Seriously? I've seen more SC20's have fitting and hull failures than Tornados (I can recount three critical SC20 issues - 2 hulls peeling up at the shrouds and one beam/hull retainer pin failure). However, to keep that in perspective, the SC20s that suffered damage had a good bit of age on them.

With regard to websites, you'll have a hard time finding much on the CF20 as it is pretty much a custom one-off that they're working the bugs out of. You can find out more about the Supercats at www.aquarius-sail.com

Is the ARC-21 the same cat as the Supercat 20? - 'Cause I did not find any info on the Supercat 20 at "aquarius-sail.com".

Nope, The ARC 21 is the same as an ARC 21.

Designer
Roberts / Haberman

Specifications

LOA: 21' 6" (6.55 m)
LWL: 21 ' 3" (6.48 m)
Spar: 33' 0" (10.06 m)
Beam: 8 ' 6" (2.59 m)
Draft, Rudders only: 2 ' 5" (0.74 m)
Draft, Board down: 4 ' 3" (1.30 m)
Minimum Weight: 400 lbs. (181.44 kg)
Maximum Sail Area: 282 sq. ft. (26.20 m2)

Mine weighs 417

No the ARC21 is a different boat. The CFR20 is a one of a kind as far as I know. There is one CFR20 being sailed in FL. The SC20 Tall Rig or SC20TR is different from a standard SC20 only in the sail and mast plan. The difference is huge and the SC20 is a totally different animal than the SC20TR.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

It all depends on what the hull number is. If its below 84 you probably have a bullet proof boat made by the original Roberts/Edmunds crew. These boats weighed within about 1/2 lb of each other with 25lbs of gelcoat on each hull. After the sale the quality control was out of Roberts hands and some hulls weighed much more than the other. When Haberman took over the quality came back. I sanded down my #57 to the glass. There were no soft spots/delamination or any other problems. I know a guy with a 1984 Sc20Tr which has both as you mentioned.

Its just a matter of intent of who is building the boat. I believe to this day some of the original guys would have never let one out the door that wasn't almost perfect.

I bought a SolCat 18 that didn't survive the first sail. Soft spots, loose daggerboat construction, caused the boat to literally sink to below the surface. The shop I bought it from gave me a new boat [see pic] that I sailed until I bought my Tornado US498.

The SC boats were designed to survive the Atlantic Ocean not just a bay or lake. I have had two of the original SC20s that were true strong boats that went through the surf and waves as well as any boat I have had. I know my ARC22 won't take what my SC20 will because its designed for light air while the SC20 is designed for it all...

thom

Yeah and you would think the T and SC20TR would have a DPN in the same time zone.

SuperCat 20 TR, Unmod n/s SC20H 63.8 67.1 65.0 63.6 59.8

Tornado (Int.) 2-Trap spi TORN 59.0 62.7 60.5 57.9 55.5

So which is it, is the SC really fast with gift DPN, or a dog compared to the T?