Which format will grow cat racing in your area?

Monday night update

36 Votes Cast

1/3 for a one design formulae only world.... 2/3 for Catfight/Portsmouth with one design scoring.

Please weigh in with your vote!

Mark -it appears one poster has voted 22 times

just jokin -

Hi Mark, You keep mentioning the system used at Cat Fight but OCRA has been scoring all their races using Portsmouth in three groups of Portsmouth ranges according to the boat mix that attends for eight years now. We score ANY and ALL beach cats that show up. The first several years we scored in groups that pretty closely put 16 footers, 18 footers, and 20 footers in separate groups. In the last two years with so many Waves and now Mystere 4.3s racing, the groups are usually 14 footers, 16s and 18s, and then all other lower rating boats (a real mix including Taipan 4.9s, Inter 17Rs, 18HTs, Nacra 6.0s, Inter 20s, etc.) Then we also score ALL boats against each other for an OVERALL ranking. This keeps the top guys in each class racing hard even if they have a big lead in their own group so that they can try to beat EVERY boat! It is a great way to welcome every sailor and boat type to the events and to increase participation. (check out the results on the website at sailocra.com) I feel certain that without this system beach cat racing in this area would have mostly gone the way of Hobie Divison Ten which fizzled out several years ago. With Sail Wave scoring now, it is fairly easy to separately score one designs out from all of the above scoring if that is the desire. Cat Fight does not do an overall score; missing out on that opportunity to compare different boat types. Maybe scoring was a legitimate reason not to offer the competitors more results like this in years past, but not anymore, even at big regattas. So Portsmouth only adds to a regatta's offerings and for not much more effort. Even if only different one designs attended an event, it would be interesting to also score it in Portsmouth so that they all could see how they were doing against every other boat as well as in their own classes. It is a great way to make any regatta "bigger" and better.

Thanks Mike for the reminder
I dropped my OCRA reference somewhere along the line.

The reason for the poll is to address the consequences of the following trend.
The recent success of large turnouts for F18’s led them to be split off at CORK leaving a very small open class. The F18HT’s were split off at Va Beach leaving no open class (They went home or did not come in the first place. Barnegat scored classes with 1 boat in them as well as 3 or 4 boat classes. Is this what racers want?

I believe that OCRA and Catfight scoring would make it a great weekend for everyone and do exactly what you say. As the season winds down and regatta schedules are firmed up for next year the choices we make will push us further down the road. Which fork do people believe will grow racing in their region. Put your 2 cents in by voting.

Remember… this is NOT a poll about what you would PREFER… (I would prefer to join a club with 25 active Tornado racers in a nice windy area with a great yacht club) Rather it's about what will GROW PARTICIPATION in cat racing in your area.

Currently the votes favor OCRA/CATFIGHT 60 to 40 over a one design program for growing participation.

As Mike mentions, one can do a class within a portsmouth handicapped group. CRAC has done this as well. It actually is a little more expensive as you add to the trophy count, but a sailor has two shots at a trophy; who would argue against that? I don't think anyone would argue that level racing is more fun when you can visually see how you're doing, but the realities are as Mark said, with more splintering of a limited number of racers into different boats, we may have no option but to go handicap racing.
David

I would probably enjoy that kind of double scored racing on the water but... (I've brought up this argument before in the past) ... I would get frustrated if a Hobie 20 started covering me when I'm trying to chase down a 6.0 - my focus is class racing. It's probably not that big of a deal but I've heard others say it before too.

-

These basic aspects of racing should not be opposites or exclusionary in either direction as mistakenly presented but should be set up to be integral and constructively work with one another, -- class and rated racing if we are to really set up a benificial functional accepted stardard for race stucture that is integral with class structure that will help {grow and promote the sport }.

If a rating system can not develop ,change and grow with the sport and obvious direction it is taking then like so many dead boat classes of the by-product of the system it currently helps produce ,- it too should go the same way ,-

The real problem is not growing development and the preference for Formula Classes as acknowledged ,-the real problem is a non-intergral often disfuctional rating system.

Simpily stated again ,it needs to develop and change and grow -base the rating system to be intergral and compatable with basic box rule CONCEPTS of design measurement rating of Length Weight and Sail area WHICH A-Class AND ALL DEVLOPMENT CLASSES ARE BASED IN as the foundation of rating ,then add times as a check or indicating factor .
It will take some time and work to develop correctly but the benifits over time are the best way to really help promote and grow the sport.

By continueing non integral contrary displaced concepts within the sport inherant in the current rating system that now serve to divide factions within that have proven detrimental in numerous ways and that a better type of rating system can readily replace with all the same benifits as reason given for its existance then it is time to grow and promote a better form of rating to benifit all .

Jake stay on point

I don’t care what you personally LIKE... In your opinion What racing format will increase cat racing in your area!

Are you saying the chance that a Hobie 20 would cover your Nacra 6.0 at an event like the Catfight is a deterent to participating and in your view such a format would not grow racing participation in your area?

I should hope that you care what I, and other sailors personally like...that is what your asking. After all, if I (and a signficant portion of other sailors) don't like it then it couldn't possibly help grow the sport. I am merely pointing out a counter point to that form of racing and counterpoints may help to shed some light on weaknesses in systems like this so we can make it better - my intentions were to be constructive in nature but I now realize and apologize for how negative it appeared.

What I am saying is that if those events happened that it would bother me on the race course (and I am assuming that my opinion would be shared by a moderate percentage of other class racers). However, it probably would not deter me from racing in the event (and besides, had I sailed well, the H20 shouldn't have had a chance to cover me in the first place). Chances are that it would rarely even come into play.

I agree that it will probably help grow the sport and foster more future racers and I support such a format. It provides newbies a format in which they can learn a lot quickly. Let's face it, The race organizers are on the wrong end of the stick to convince anyone to give up their boat for a more popular item to grow certain classes. We should find a way to adapt in order to grow our sport utilizing the variety of boats out there today and this sounds like a good way to get going. Besides, I've never raced this way (yet) and I shouldn't knock it until I've tried it.

Hi David

Take a look at the CBYRA NOR for the three day race week over Labor Day

The alternative classes are one of many PHRF bands.

In Div 11... this policy would mean that Hobie 18's 20's, Tigers or F18's and everything but Hobie 16's and 17's would have exclusively raced in a portsmouth class from New York City to Virginia Beach .... in recent memory.

My point is that they CBYRA Race official's don't "wish" for a turnout... If you don't have the entries.... see you in PHRF. Most importantly.. you, the racer, know what to expect on the upcoming weekend.... You are not disappointed on Saturday morning because you have a competitive PHRF race to compete in that weekend.

Minimally, We must put clarity back into our racing structure for cats. The racer must know with certainty that they will have a competitive race to participate in on the weekend or they will find other things to do with their time.

Take Care
Mark

Now this is making more sense. If you increase the number of boats required to make a class for one-design racing, you will not only end up with a much bigger Portsmouth class, you will save a lot of money on trophies.

We have used a method of sailing different classes / boats with varying handicaps at club level quite successfully, it goes something like this :
We take the handicap rating for a boat/group of boats, and calculate it`s corrected time in a 1 hour race. We then do that with all classes / boats at the event, before racing starts. We can then determine how much time each the faster boats would give the slower boats in 1 hour, we then have staggered starts at the time intervals calculated, so congestion at the start line with boats that rate differently to you shouldn`t happen. The Race Officer then lets us race for an hour, doing as many laps as it takes. Class winners can be scored separately, for the purists. The nice thing is it turns into a pursuit race, and if well-run can lead to some very exciting finishes, with all the congestion at the finish line ! This way the spinnaker boats start last, and have to catch up to the fleet. Also means that the faster boats don`t have to wait around for the last finishers for too long before the next starting sequence gets under way. It ain`t perfect, but it`s fun, and fun is what makes people sail.

I agree with Mark here.

I voted Pn racing as the way to grow my participation in my neck of the woods and we have a sizable F18 presence here that easily makes the cut-off of 10 boats.

I too would love all to buy F16's so that I can race class but is just not realistic and to be honest this attitude would also be a bit arrogant and egoistic.

With Mark I believe that participation is revived with new cat sailors and not be zero sum class games and certainly not by calling new sailors in the PN class "nothing more than obstacles on the course"

fact of the matter is that new sailors buy what they can get for a decent prices and this is often a cat out of the dead class society. Without catering for them in a PN way and concentration on making this class fun we will never grow these sailors into to the more expensive one-design or formula classes. That is reality.

The worst you can do is to make the PN fleet a waste basket of unwanted sailors where a tornado is forced to race a H14 only because he isn't allowed to measure himself against 5 boats of a certain 18 and 20 foot length.

I think alot of organiser have it wrong. The event should be PN by default and only do a one-design/formula start when this class organises the event themselfs (nationals etc) or when they really have a number worth considering a seperate start for. The Number 5 is NOT that number. 10 comes closer;

Sadly to focus is now on getting 5 boats on the beach (not even on the water) and the shoove everybody who was not lucky enought to choose the rigth class (who determines this ?) into the "oohh yeah, we got that crap of everything class too that we have to start"

Wouter

A tactic used overhere is to seperate the fleet into two classes. One with a rating of 110 or more under Texel (P18, H16, P16 , Dart 18's , Nacra 5.0 etcs) and one with a rating of 110 or less (F-20, F18's, nacra 6.0 etc + all spi boats)

Sometimes we start together sometimes we have two starts. Boat race handicap in their group and boats with more than 1o boats get a seperate Formula / one-design listing in the end results.

If you get covered by a Prindle 18 with spi when you're on a Nacra 6.0 then you sailed badly to begin with And you need only to blame yourself. And if you can't sail yourself clear of him then you're not much of a sailor anyway. I really don't see the difference by being covered by a baot of different make who sailed alot better or a trailing boat of the same make because you sailed badly as well. Okay YOU think you deserve a better placing but the reality is that you don't.

Now mostly these worst case scenarios don't happen. Covering a Nacra 6.0 on a P18 is stupid; you both loose speed hindering eachother and teh P18 has already won because of the handicap calculations. Chances are that the P18 will just have to keep his noose clean to won over the nacra 6.0. nacra 6.0 needs to gain alot of time on the P18 and therefor the most likely outcome is that the N6.0 will tack away and the P18 will stay on his course and choose clean air and free way over tacking to cover the N6.0. The P18 may eventually tack to to make sure that he is sailing in the same winds as the N6.0 when both are ahead in the fleet and fighting for a high placing. But this is not covering in the OD sense; it is hedging your chances and it does not require to be in close proximity of the N6.0; just to be in same area.

Personally I don't give much credit to a winner in a class of 5 O-D boats; I respect more a winner in a class of 25 PN boats.

I do think that splitting the PN fleet in bands is a good way to make PN sailing alot more fair. I mean A P16 can trully cover a H16 as their speeds are so close together. Wind changes or wave condition pretty much affect the two boats in the same way.

Wouter

I don't think anybody would argue against Portsmouth racing being the best (and in most cases the ONLY) way to "grow cat racing in your area". It is the policy that has been in effect in many parts of the country for years. It was about 10 years ago that, at my suggestion, our Hobie fleet in Miami was converted into an open organization named CABB (Catamaran Association of Biscayne Bay) so we could include ALL types of catamarans. All of our racing has been on Portsmouth ever since, and the club has been gradually growing again as a result.

OCRA, which has larger numbers of boats, expanded and improved upon this by dividing into high and low Portsmouth divisions. CRAM had probably been doing that long before. So all this is nothing new. Except for Hobie fleets that still have strong one-design classes and are still adhering to the NAHCA policies, most people agree that Portsmouth racing is very important to the success of regattas.

It also is nothing new for various classes of similar speeds to be started together -- including one-design classes starting with Portsmouth classes.

Here is the difference in Mark's concept:
Normally the one-design classes are racing for trophies within their one-design classes and the Portsmouth fleets are racing for trophies within their Portsmouth divisions, even if they all start together. You are aware of what boats you are racing against right from the outset.

Mark's stance is that he wants to see the BIG regattas, like Spring Fever and Tradewinds, to use the same scoring format as Catfight, which scores and trophies one-design fleets but also scores and trophies everybody for overall Portsmouth trophies. He says this makes it possible for people to decide whether they want to race the other boats in their one-design fleet or race for the Portsmouth trophies. THAT is where the problem comes in, because how does anybody in the race know whom them are racing against? If you think you are in a one-design fleet, you have no way of knowing whether the other boats in your one-design fleet have decided to race against you or race for the Portsmouth trophies. And the Portsmouth sailors also have no way of knowing whether some of the boats from one-design fleets are racing them or racing the others in their particular one-design fleet. And people's motivations may change in mid-stream in the regatta -- "Oh, I'm not doing well in my one-design fleet, so I think I will start trying for a Portsmouth trophy instead." How do you plan your tactics when you don't know who your competitors are?

When Mark first started his campaign to get other major regattas to adopt the Catfight formula, I talked to the Catfight organizer, and he said he does not recommend that format for other major regattas. He also said it is very labor intensive for the race committee and requires a lot of people, because of the need to take times on every boat in the regatta rather than just the open class boats.

This is not as simple as Mark makes it sound. I, for one, want to know who my competitors are.

Maybe if the regatta is done entirely on Portsmouth and so you base your strategy on going as fast as you can around the course and ignore tactics within your one-design fleet -- i.e., just sail your own race -- and then, after the fact, break out the results within the one-design fleets and award trophies for those fleets -- MAYBE the one-design results would be the same as if they were racing each other instead of on Portsmouth. I don't know, but it just seems to me that all it measures is the relative speeds of the boats around the course rather than their racing skills and tactical abilities (so the one-design trophies would be relatively meaningless).

But maybe those things are not important any more.

Mark,

The crux of your question is how to get more people to come out and grow the sport. We keep droping into an argument around whats the best format PN, Formula etc, instead of how to get more participation.

The core group that raced in the glory days got old, had kids etc. How can we get those people to come back out and get their kids into sailing. These people raced,are familiar with it and would fit right in.

The other demographic for increased participation is new people who have never sailed or raced before. This group does not know formats and learning how to sail is much more important than sysmantic arguments over systems and numbers. My experience is that those conversations tend to scare off the newbie before they even start.

The core racers are going to come because they are already hooked. The system has to be fun for the rest of them. Years ago I got into racing because the local fleet invited me over when I was at the lake, fed me beer, and threw a great party. I knew nothing about racing and I did not care. Now I am a racing adict. BUT, I go to events for the social aspect as well. If there is not a gathering, party, etc and only a race, I do not care how great the competition, it is not worth packing up the family, kids, sitters and stuff to attend.

If there is enough attendance, the grouping for the race will sort themselves out. In the short term, we will never get rid of all the inequities, but have to maintain the flexibility to try and avoid gouping the lone 6.0 with the lone Wave in the lost boat fleet. Put the board boats together and like, modify the scoring. It means a little more work for the commitee, but with computers its not that bad.

Sail fun

Matt

Exactly Mar ,-most people in any sport want a true test of skill -sailing skill ,-,

from ISAF RATINGS http://www.schrs.com/

The ISAF regognizes the benifits of class racing .The tremendous benifit and including builder dealer support and the sence and CONSISTANT principles of {fair equal racing } as set forth in rule 2 of ISAF rules of racing established base ideal of sport that allows fair competition of sailors and builders of the craft they race as development classes now provide .

P RATED racing is a handicap type --thus inferior ,-giving advantage to lesser sailed boats by lesser skilled sailors in lesser competitive class or brand types.

INCLUDING ALL TYPES OF CAT DESIGN that wish to race is very important at events , How best to accomplish this and accept all the diverse design types while upholding the consistant principles of fair equal racing is really the question to ask .-Historically H-class has had the majority of boats ,at one time an estimated 80% of cats raced were H -that has changed and most sailing organizations now need the added numbers from numerous builders -that continues to change as Mary noted per examples but still exists . The best means of integrating seperate brand groups is again through principles of fair equal sailing that development and Formula Class racing provides and is already accomplishing for the bettermeant of the sport and longterm benifit of all concerned . OD-racers of many classes used to class only racing will not accept a Handicap alternative but will enthusiastically race in a Formula type or level class . Realistically and from numerous commentary on the forums these areas hold the most interest by far and ARE growing partisipation in the sport and will continue in growing numbers well into the future .

Its not a question of choose one as some attempt to narrowly and mistakenly frame the problem at hand within the sport in N A which has declined terribley, due at least partially to misplaced handicap ideals that would continue or expand this type of direction.-This would only serve to further and continue the decline and alienate the majority of catsailors that prefer a true test of sailing skill in level class racing .

The success historically has always been around class racing because of base principles of fair sailing . Boat builders build boat types ,boatdealer get involved and invest and spend their time and effort promoting them, sailors similarly invest and get enthusiastic about them,- most with the intent of great large equal fair class racing . All the catsailors who have purchased numerous OD and this year, numerous Formula 18s -Tigers -NF-18s -Mysteres ,-etc -The 18hts and Jav2 -F-16s -A-Class cats and through the list in numerous OD all are expecting great class racing events in growing class groups ,-most now by numerous varied builders ,-not one brand type.
The reality IS this is already growing and promoting the future of the sport and is the direction it is naturally taking . COMMON SENCE AND LOGIC would indicate an understanding and recognition of this and a more intergral supportive roll and means of rating cat design to assist and help BUILD THESE BASE RACING GROUPS and classify others through the basics of Length -sail area -weight in formula which in turn classify them into inclusive fair equal racing groups based on design . Basically we need a better means of CLASSIFICATION OF RACING GROUPS ,-

Mary noted that catsailors need to know thier classification to race . Using design measurement in Length category is ideal and easily understood -14 -16- 18 -20 and unlimited class ,-based on existing F-classifications , This allows all boats design parameters and serves to frame an understanding or a beginning to understand design and its effects on boat speed and handling ,-This in turn allows catsailors the opportunity to modify the thousands of existing boats now owned or available with new sq top main and or a spin snuffer system to rate equally in Length category as well as purchase new development and Formula based cats .-If a catsailor adds more sail or other design speed factors as lightweight they in accordance with design measurement rating move up to the next Length category in starts . If a particular class has very large numbers as a matter of practicality they have their own start with a B classification in L category ,just as large class events did at one time . In the other extreme scenario it is a matter of getting a min 5 or 7 in Length category to show if not they move into the next group. Class groups should be scored seperately but start in equal design rating L category again unless large numbers or practical reasons require a seperate start.
Developing rating by modifying current P Rating and integrating it with improved design measurement rating to work within the principles of fair equal racing in promoting equal racing groups intergral with development classes will certainly benifit the sport long term much more than the proposed framed continued concessions exacted by the mistaken direction P-rating concepts now want to lead.
P RATING expanded further will only continue to alienate and divide segments within the sport leading to more seperate type and brand events only , the oposite of its wishfull intent.
Efforts should be focussed on recognizing the direction the sport is taking ,and as Jake noted what sailors really do prefer. It is about providing what racing sailors prefer and what will bring them out to race , If any look it is level racing classes ,development classes and Formula groups.
P Rating requires continued misdirected concessions be made in racing contrary to the preferences and ideals of most,attempts to expand it and the inherant problems of continueing or expanding a timed handicap rating system are the wrong course to take .

We need to observe the success of development -Formula and level rating type classes over the years ,-overseas and now finally here and act integrally and constructively with it to build promote and grow the sport.

Hi Matt and Mary

Portsmouth versus formula/one design are alternative policy choices that a club makes for a regatta and for their region's racing schedule. It is one of the things that we have control of. I believe that this choice affects the long-term growth of the sport of cat racing. I respect everyone's opinion about what they like, however I agree with Matt that this is not the debate. Which is " What program decision by your fleet will grow the sport?".

With respect to who we are targeting for growth:
A new racer could care less about these details, (so long as they feel that they fit in and have a chance of success). Returning racers would love to recreate the good ol days but are in for a shock at the changes that time has wrought around the country. In either case, the policy's we implement as fleets matter if we hope to get these folks into the game.

Mary states that there is a broad consensus about Portsmouth racing growing fleet participation and points to CRAB and OCRA as groups that have successfully reversed the decline. However, I certainly don't see such a consensus or see that it's reflected in the regattas that are run in much of the country. In fact the poll is running at just 60 /40 in favor of Portsmouth/Catfight/OCRA... A strong result favoring Portsmouth but certainly not a consensus.

We face a bit of a paradox.... IF one class grows (or remains strong) and segregates off as a separate racing group E.G. F18HT's ... the similar boats in their region e.g. I20's are left with too few boats to race against and so they soon stop racing.

The policy that your fleet implements address the paradox.
If your policy favor's one design/formula racing... then the I20 racers will be forced to change boats to play and join the HT racers or limp along with a couple of boats in the "all but dead class".
(Most of the time they would not meet a reasonable threshold of 7 boats for a start in organizations like CBYRA.)

The alternative policy is that you race them together ala OCRA/Catfight,

Mary has nicely stated my argument favoring changes to events like Tradewinds, and Spring Fever and the many regional regattas that we run as well as her personal evaluation of the limitations inherent in a OCRA/ Catfight format.

Its True that scoring is more work... It’s not true that it’s overwhelming. CBYRA regattas score 150 yachts on finish time using PHRF. Our current software, Sailwave can manage the job quite nicely.

It's true that the racing game is different when you compete in two classes simultaneously. It is not the same as one design. For her, it’s confusing and not worthwhile. Many others disagree and I point to the Catfight regatta that seems to be increasing in participation year after year. Mike Fahle's summary of the positives that OCRA has realized balance Mary's issue with... "Just whom are you racing" and her opinion that "tactics are completely lost" which was debated by others in this thread.

Where does your fleet stand and what are the reasons for your policy?

Most importantly, No matter what, Please make sure your fleet clearly spells out how you will organize the racing. I quoted the example from CBYRA race week. "7 boats pre registered by X or you are in a Portsmouth division” Clarity is crucial in this game. You know what to expect if you commit the time and money to go racing in this event. NOR's that list classes for every Hobie ever made with no realistic hope for ever getting an adequate turnout plus open class simply perpetuate 4 boat racing classes with 3 deep in trophies. Mary clearly stated her preference... 3 of anything is better then 15 on Portsmouth /OCRA /Catfight.

What's your fleet's choice? What would you like to see for next year?

Comments welcome!

Take Care
Mark

I agree with Mary. I'd rather race against a few in one-design than 15 under Portsmouth.
You already know how I feel about portsmouth. It can serve as a great excuse as to why you didn't win. With one-design there is no excuse. If you lose, its not because they sailed a number beating boat, it is because the other Skipper/Team was just plain better than you.

As far fleet policies. I'm not sure I follow you there. Why would a club limit themselves by stating a scoring preference? I'd rather see what we get then sort it out at the Skipper's meeting.

I hope you don't lose much sleep at night over this subject, Mark.
So, when are we going to see you out on the water again? I think the last time I saw you sail was Spring fever two years ago. Are you protesting the manner in which clubs score their classes by going on a "Sail Strike" or something?

Tracie

Apologies up front if any of this sounds inflammatory, or if I wander off topic.

It's only an excuse if you are the type of person who looks for excuses. If you're the type that says "I won, I'm the better sailor" and "I lost, the ratings suck", you'll always find an excuse. No excuses under one-design? Gimme a break. Sailor X won because he bought new sails. Sailor Y won because he has lower/higher crew weight.

I'm finding myself in a real slump in my racing lately, but the last thing I'm blaming is other people's ratings.

I have always believed, and I think this is the angle Mark is working - that for any of this to matter you have to add new sailors to the sport. Moving sailors from one class to another is just a shell game.

When you're dealing with low numbers and you're trying to build a Fleet, picking and choosing the boats will limit turnout, and some form of handicapping is absolutely the way to go. Having to buy an expensive boat to play is not going to happen when you're new to the sport. When numbers begin to increase, and people start to upgrade from the starter boat that got them in, they start to pick the boats that interest them and groups start to form, and now that they're hooked, spending some money is ok. We've seen this big-time in our club. When we get newbies (I mean new to cat sailing or sailing itself), it's usually "I've got an old FastCat 17.5, can I race with you guys?" Telling them no, you must buy the one-design we're all sailing to play would only reinforce the exclusionary reputation sailing has. For awhile we've had a rag-tag Fleet. I guess we still do. But now our numbers are growing. And what do you know, the people that have been sailing their mixed bag are starting to upgrade, and they're picking boats based on the others that are around, and some groups are forming. First it was the NACRA 5.8s, then NACRA 6.0s. Hobie-20s and Inter-20s, A-Cats, and Taipans. And people are having fun racing against their counterparts as well as within the whole context of Portsmouth. The increase in numbers of sailors in our Fleet is helping out other regattas in the area, as people are starting to venture out. It's a slow process, but I believe it is happening.

Don't get me wrong - I believe One Design and Formula is a great thing. And it will be great to see it thrive again with strong cat classes.

We're at a time with our sport (and I mean catsailing in general, not just racing, even though I know that definition is not universal), where we need to bring fresh blood in. I believe we need to concentrate on that. Once the numbers come up, and a critical mass is there, the one design and formula scenes will have a better chance to develop and exist and keep support. I believe the open Portsmouth racing is the best way to just get people out. If the racing in the area is handicap, and people feel that racing in handicap is so bad they'd rather sit on the beach and stew about it, well, go ahead and sit. You're not helping grow the scene and I'd rather have somebody who doesn't know port from starboard but is enthusiastic to race with.

Variations on the scoring theme as far as trophies in sub-classes are simply a tweak, and honestly I'm not sure if will change the draw to an event that much. I don't think I'll say "it's not worth going to that race because there's only trophies for open spin and non-spin" - I'm more interested in whether the whole thing looks like fun. If you're going to base your attendance on what trophies you can take home, then see my previous comment about who I'd rather see on the water.

What will bring new people to the sport is relentless bringing of the word to the unconverted. In our area, I believe a crappy job is done in this area. I think one of the key reasons our Fleet has grown has been due to our getting the word out to non-catsailors and non-racing catsailors. We've backed off a little because we're at the limits of our land space, but you can never back off - old members leave or become inactive for whatever reason, and you drive yourself crazy trying to figure out a way to make them come back, or you can go out and find new blood. New blood is the best option every time. An example of us not getting the word out - in Galesville, where we race on every Tuesday night from early May through October when we switch to Sundays, I just got contacted by an active keelboater from the Wednesday night series, saying after all the years he's raced in Galesville he had no idea that there was a cat club. He was surprised to find out we've been there for 12 years. And we're sponsored by the same bar. We're not getting the word out. Great events like the C-100 happen and nobody outside the cat-sailors even know it happened. We're not getting the word out.

If this all sounds like work, well it is. But the benefits include having the critical mass of sailors to support just about any kind of racing to fill all niches. Forming the niches before the critical mass has been achieved is a recipe for failure in my book.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Okay, I have been watching the banter, and I have to chime in now. We have a fleet of about 25 boats here in Columbia S Carolina. They are as follows
Supercat 20 4
I 20 2
NACRA 6.0 1
NACRA 5.2 2
G Cat 5.7 2
G Cat 5.0 4 active
G Cat 21 1
H 18 2
H 17 1
H 17 sport 1
H 16 5 (3 new sailors)
Mystere 6.0 1
H18modified 1
Trac 16 2
H 20 1

Okay, do we race one design. No. Do we race portsmouth, sometimes. Do we just go out and have fun and see who gets back first? Oh yes. No excuses heard, no bitching, just I can sail my boat(no matter what it is) better than you.

Now when we have a regatta, we split the fleet into high and low portsmouth groups. If ther e are 5, they have thier own class.
This is what works for us. Most people (IMHO) buy boats because something becomes available that they like. Most people when they are new to cats dont set out and say I have to have this type of boat to race against these guys. Once people begin racing and enjoy it, then they specialize. At least that is what is happening here. It may not apply anywhere else, but you asked what will support our fleet.

David Mosley
www.seacats.org

That's what I'm talking about. You certainly said it more concisely! I believe that's happening in our club for sure.

Hi Mark, not sure if it's of interest, but at our club we have an SI that says that any class that has an average of 5 boats out per race in the previous year (we hand-wave that calculation rather than actually compute it) in the cat handicap fleet - ISAF www.schrs.com - can have their own start and seperately scored results. The Dart18s were the last fleet to achieve this, but without exception, everybody in the Dart fleet decided that they'd still like to see their results against the other boats and so we just score their results seperately (+ additional glassware) as well as include them in the handicap results, and they start with the handicap fleet. The F18s will achieve this 'status' next year and I suspect the same thing will happen. In this way the club's policy adapts to whatever folk decide to sail. Racing spinny boats against non-spinny boats sounds like madness, but at the end of the day we're (that's our club, not all clubs in general) out there to have a good time in club racing; most of us treat it as practice for 'real' events so big starts are good and winning is secondary. The bar banter is always good after the race too; especially when a Dart18 is the first to reach the windward mark after a decent start in a force 6... Our policy is similar for regattas; invite everybody; see who turns up; take times for everybody (it's not that much extra work**) and score overall and seperate class/rating-splits as appropriate with additional prizes for the separately scored divisions. If we had say 10-20 of one class turn up we would probably just ask them if they wanted a separate start... We would not get away with forcing any particular formula or class and I don't think we'd like to do it anyway; let folk sail whatever they like and try and accommodate everybody as necessary. Our cat fleet is growing steadily; but at the expense of the monhull fleet is has to be said...

www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk

**By using something like Prolog - www.software4clubs.com - you press a button every time somebody cross the line and enter their sail number - the data ends up as a text file on the PC which can then be sucked into the scoring software. Presumably if two boats finish very close together you press the button twice and fill in the sailno later, so you still only need to record sail nos manually... The Round Isle of Wight race was done like this recently - www.fastscatrace.com.

See also:-

www.precisiontiming.com/3frame_alge.htm
www.autohoot.com/AutoHoot.htm
www.soton.ac.uk/~jets/raceday

Hi Colin
Sounds like the best way to run events .
Accomodate the sailors preferences .
just lunchtime here ,
Here in MI there is CRAM which holds races around the state ,-Great Lakes area . It is set up with fleet captains for each class and oriented on good class racing which has made it successfull for mor than 30 years as the Catamaran Racing Association of Michigan .
The CF 4 regatta is next weekend with more than 100 cats expected ,-The great folks in CRAM deserve credit for this ,--certainly not a handicap rating system base on average time, -its not what attracts people to racing .
Like the ISAF rating which the F-18 class authors used as a basis to write specifications for the class rules . One good thing leads to another and another -

Would like to see it similarly adopted here or at least tested and tried at some events ,-few would know the difference I,d bet .
It would eliminate numerous problems and be much more benificial ,-thanks again for sailwave scoring system .
Carl

Keith,
No apology needed. That remark was from a previous discussion Mark and I had and I don't expect you to know where I was coming from with that. I agree anyone can make excuses if they are looking to do it.

I also agree with you on the having fun aspect of your comments. I have always said that it is the people who keep this sport going not the boat being sailed or how they are being scored.

Fun is by far the most important reason I sail/race. Can you imagine going through all the trouble if it we not? Can you imagin packing the gear, boat, clothes, driving hours, un packing, rigging, sailing for two days, re-packing, de-rigging the boat, securing it, driving home, spending lots of money..etc etc..if the other sailors were all jerks? or if the event its self was no fun at all?

I know I would not be able to do it on a regular basis.

Tracie

Hi Carl,

It would be interesting to score a seasons results on USSA PN, RYA PN, ISAF and Texel to see if much changed. My guess is that they are all 'good enough' and that on average not much place changing would happen; skillful crews winning out over a period of time in all but exceptional circumstances. Why do we have all these systems; I dunno; perhaps I've got it all wrong... At least your PN scheme is easy for clubs to operate; i.e. just email the results to Darline; our (UK RYA) PN scheme is a nightmare - "simple" example - when it comes to making returns... One thing many clubs do is use a high point logarithmic system (e.g. Rinderle or Austrian) which takes the number of competitors in a race into account; i.e. getting a second in a 3 boat race is not as good points-wise as getting a 2nd in a 10 boat race.

We did have a 'situation' with our club racing once; in the last race of a series, an Inter20 would win if a particular Dart didn't come first (or something like that); so the Inter just sailed the Dart down the pan... Not particularly sporting (or is that just me?); but they took so much stick for it that I doubt it would happen again...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

The root of the problem is lack of sailors. You can see this in the scarcity of young sailors at our events. WRCRA, Seacats and others who have responded have evolved a flexible system to accomodate the scoring issue and may have found a way to bring new people into the sport. I totally agree with Keith that we don't locally advertise ourselves and our local races enough. I am copying below something I picked up from the NAHCA web site on one way a fleet in Seattle boosted their membership. I don't know if its out of date, but the ideas certainly aren't. Many areas also don't have the benefit of a good local dealer, but that just means the club has to work harder to get into contact with new and potential sailors. Its a bit of work, but anything worthwile is and if we aren't willing to step up and do some work to grow our sport, then we are just passing the time in futile complaining. As one business advisor once told me, "a complaint without a solution is just bitching". My apologise for the length, the following is thanks to NAHCA:
Fleet Building 101
Last year Fleet 95 (Seattle) came up with a crazy idea that was so crazy, it has become infectious. We want to share the concept with you in the hopes it will help you.

Like many fleets around the country, Fleet 95 is/was situated in the middle of a major metropolitan area with a dying fleet. We didn't even need to use our toes to count active members!! This, with over 3 million people less than an hour away!!

So last year we decided to teach a seminar on how to sail Hobies. On the surface, it seemed like a pretty mundane idea. But we were so blown away by the response, that we haven't stopped running!!

We call the seminar 'Hobie 101'. Fitting, since we use the Hobie University booklet produced by NAHCA! We run the seminar on a Saturday in May one week after Opening Day -- the official opening of the yachting season in Seattle. (We figure Opening Day reminds everyone about that mossy hunk of fiberglass buried in the weeds out back.)

Our advertising/marketing is almost exclusively through the local dealer -- Dan Carpenter and Kevin Cunningham at Hobie Cats Northwest. They get a booth at the Seattle Boat Show every January. So we get the word out there and through their shop during the springtime. That's it. No direct mail. No phone calls. Just the Hobie dealer.

The seminar goes from 9 to 5. We have a chalk talk in the morning. Around 11 a.m. we head out to the floating dock to a fully rigged Hobie 16. There we demonstrate tacking and gibing, talk about safety and clothing and boat tuning and stuff like that. Then we send them off to Laura Sullivan and Jerry Valeske's motorhome for lunch. They grab their box lunch, sit down with someone they don't know (we hope and encourage them to), and make friends.

After lunch, they start rigging their boats. Fleet volunteers walk around and help them rig and tune their boats, answer questions, and help them launch. We hit the water around 2 p.m. for two hours of Rick White-style drills. Or at least we try to get it as synchronized as Rick's seminars. But it always fails miserably. Instead, the boats are being sailed off in a myriad of directions. So we abandon the 'drills' idea and power around in the fleet Avon with a megaphone shouting instructions and encouragement to each boat -- giving them personalized instruction.

After a couple of hours, we send them back to the beach. They break their boats down and head back into the classroom. There, Laura greets them with a cool beverage of their choice while Jerry is playing back the video. We analyze the video, talk about the day, and send them on their way!

Last year we figured we might get 5-10 people of which maybe 1-2 would show interest in joining the fleet and our racing activities. We were inundated with 20 people in about 10 boats! It was so successful, the attendees were literally begging for another class!! We weren't prepared for that, but shrugged our shoulders and said "Sure!" Hence, Hobie 102 was born.

Hobie 101 deals almost strictly with boat tuning and handling. Hobie 102 deals with racing -- how starts are run, what the courses are, how to round marks, stuff like that. At Hobie 101 we encourage regatta participation. In Hobie 102 we expect regatta particpation!!

This year we had 38 registered for Hobie 101 of which about 27 showed up with 16 boats! Both years we have had someone travel over 5 hours to attend our seminar!!! 5 hours!

Many of these people don't even own a boat, and are coming to check out Hobies because they are thinking of buying either a Hobie or some other dinghy. Two guys last year didn't even know what a Hobie Cat was, but came anyway and spent the day with us because they was so intrigued with what we were doing. This year we had some fleet members rig their boats and take the people without boats out for rides so they could check it out for themselves.

The best part is this: last year, of the 10 boats that showed up, at least 5 are racing on a regular or semi-regular basis!!! For those of you doing the math, that's a 50% retention rate! Of the 16 that showed up this year, we expect 7-9 new boats out on our race course! That is about a dozen new boats in the past two years!! What would your regatta look like with 12 more boats registered?!!!

The fleet 'regulars' (you know, the ones we can count on our fingers!) were mostly tied up with other obligations the day of our event. The week prior to the event we were so overwhelmed with late registrations that we panicked and put out an APB to our division members asking for volunteers. This is really the clincher…..Just about the entire graduating class from last year showed up to help out with the newbies this year!!!! Can you believe that!

Last year we went on a pretty heavy follow-up campaign. We do all the registration via email, so we have their addresses for follow-up. We create a distribution list and politely hammer them with emails after the seminar about upcoming events, tuning tips, etc. This year we are delegating that responsibility by decentralizing it amongst our active fleet members and last year's class. We are using a 'buddy up' system to help bring these new ones to our regattas, answer their questions, drink their beer, and generally have a Hobie time!!! It helps the guys just one year into this feel like they are contributing something too!

We charge $10 to cover the cost of lunch and to put a value on the seminar so the attendees will place a value on it. We put the seminar on at Sail Sandpoint -- a recently converted Navy base now home to a sailing school. But the location is immaterial. This could be done on any beach with a white board!! We had a couple of passer-bys ask for our fleet contact information when they saw our boats.

Another cool thing is that all this new blood has stirred up some of the old blood. There is excitement in the air!! Things are happening!! The fleet is alive!!

There is a cool breeze blowing in Seattle! Come join the fun! We'll share our ideas with you and help you to have the same kind of success we've enjoyed.

Hi Colin

Down the pan ,--out past the layline ,-Its not just you ,thats usually something reserved for matchracing or collegiate team racing or large class racing at top levels ,-not for local club rated racing ---You generally don,t see it on cats because speed is more the objective . Cats are also very vunerable tacking and in roundings ,the speeds change from 20 plus to 2 sometimes in seas which causes more potential fouling situations and potential boat damage ,-most learn quickly this does not win races or regattas and usually involves the disgruntled back of the pack type cat sailor.
-- ,just realized I tryed something similar once racing way back when on very large competitive fleets of H-18s .
It came down to the last race and they had to have a first to win the regatta so we sat on them off the start and tacked on em each time up the first beat ,after 6 or 8 tacks we both rounded the first A mark close to last in class. Remember I handed the tiller to the crew {age 12 } and said that should do it, you sail the rest. --
The other team was so good they sailed through the entire fleet in the 3 around course and just missed winning by a boat length ,-oddly enough to my crews parents , I ,ve never cheered so hard for another boat to keep going before .
Good lesson for me ,I,ve never done it again or would ,better just to race and loosely cover if you have to in class . In rated racing on a faster design thats really a harsh tactic, if I were the Dart I,ve give them more than stick .
If your racing in a rated class with larger faster boats the larger lighter beamier one always has the advantage in tactical situations ,{maybe why so many of those types like rated races} -its not really {fair } or sporting in rating class type racing .

Seems like the ISAF Rating for cats and Texel are very similar producing similar numbers , think ISAF uses a few more factors in ratings calc that vary of waterline length ,
board measurement ,and spin area measurement where Texel does not and uses a standard 4 pt for all spin in size category and a 3 pt -for non board types. It then uses a slicker abbreviated simpler math formula of rated Length ,Sailarea,and R-weight.
TR number = 100 / (0.99 * RL^0.3 * RSA^0.4 / RW^0.3),
The ISAF site has a really good example rating diagram and sample calc . http://www.schrs.com/schrsdiagrams.asp?id=boat

Sailwave is an invaluable tool for any that would like to compare rating systems,we should be comparing them and hopefully someday combine the best attributes of each into one universal rating system .
I gave it a try in outline,under TIP rating on the F-20 forum here , TIP for Texel ISAF &Portmouth combined ,but honestly it will take better minds than mine to work out all the variables correctly .

The Texel or ISAF Rating systems seem to be accurate within 2or3% -and doubt the differences in P-rating when converted and compared would be much different . What your left perfecting is that last few percent by adding a windspeed and other added calc based on design effects.
Adapting the ISAF rating for cats that sailwave scoring is of course set up for also for some events here would be a first good step.

All the best
Carl

Hi Tracie

"you wrote"
As far fleet policies. I'm not sure I follow you there. Why would a club limit themselves by stating a scoring preference? I'd rather see what we get then sort it out at the Skipper's meeting.

Well that's pretty tricky of you!

You state your policy so that people know what to expect after they do all of the work (see your comments) to get to your event. Why would they want to be surprised or disappointed?

Would you write a teaser for your regatta like this or even attend a regatta that stated?
"Great fun, We expect on average 3 boats in the XXX class based on the last two years of attendace for great one design racing."

While you and Mary are personaly content with that turnout, I don't think you would find too many others (including me) who would make the trek and spend the time and money to go to your regatta.

This well meaning flim flam of listing the one design classes which COULD happen ... has not been growing cat racing for years and your regatta in the spring is an example of how attendance can continue to decline.

Perhaps if you at least adopted CBYRA's policy for one design racing (see above) EG... 7 class boats preregistered and paid by Tuesday with refunds offered if you are switched to a handicap class you might get more attendace at your annual regatta. People would know what to expect and might actually choose to go racing if its against 10 to 20 other boats.. all be it not the same kind and reverse your regattas decline. At the momement the poll is running better then 60% to 40% in favor of running an event like the OCRA/Catfight style.

I am not sure how any one could argue against the notion that potential racers should have a pretty good and realistic idea of what they can expect in terms of class structure and turnout. This is key to building interest in your regatta and racing in general. That's why people like to see the "who's coming lists" and regattas go to all of the effort to build and update them.

Spring Fever lists the attendee's but not the classes and has seen attendace drop while Catfight lists the racers and the portsmouth class class they will race in. HMMM I am sure there are other reasons but I would not discount the truth in advertising theme here.

Clarity seems to be important.

PS.. had you not scheduled your Rookie race day on the same weekend as the 97th running of the Cambridge regatta we might have seen each other sooner.

Take Care
Mark