Been shopping for a new F-18. The prices are out of control. So if all the measures in the rules are to keep costs down why are they getting to be the most expensive boat to buy.
Prices have jumped almost $10,000 in 6 years. That is just plain stupid. Now it's almost cheaper to buy a F-20C than an Infusion, C2,Wildcat,Cirrus R, or Phantom.
If they can build a Tornado for $21,000 why can't they build a F-18 for that?
The Tornado price you have is a couple of years old and does not include sails.
There is only one opportunity to buy an F20C for less than a new F18 - that is a used vs new scenario, too.
Yes, prices have gone up - in that period, we have seen all F18 production go overseas, so every purchase price for US sailors is based on some other currency. Until Matt finishes the new Falcon Marine F18, that situation will continue.
In addition, while I appreciate your sticker-shock, please take 15 minutes and price a Melges 24... or even the jib for a FARR 40. We have world-class racing for a fraction of the cost in just about any other class on the planet.
I've been wondering the same thing. I bought my 2004 Nacra F18 brand new for $12,800 without trailer and now they are almost twice as much. The pricing doesn't seem in scale with the other boats manufacturers build given the volume they are building them.
2004 - built in Santa Ana, CA and the money went to Nacra US.
2012 - built overseas, money to Nacra Europe.
Quote on a Tornado
15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD
Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.
http:/
Used boat, race ready, $38K USD
Where are you seeing a new boat for $21K USD? My Google isn't finding anything in that neighbourhood.
Rich Vilvens ‎15,900.00 EUR = 20,951.01 USD great price for that boat.
Rich Vilvens Is that fully rigged?
Roland Gaebler Yes, its fully rigged and ready to sail out-of-the-box in the new and very strict high quality one design. Its made with Epoxi resin and Airex core.
They put the price on the boat being used for the olympic selection trials.
Ah. Not quite apples to apples, eh?
How much to your door from Santander? 😉
Ok John add a couple grand for tax and shipping it's still cheaper than most F-18's.
The price Rich is quoting is for the Exploder Tornado, and is being used as a selling point to get the class back into the Olympics. The price is quoted here: http:/
I suspect that part of the reason the price is relatively low for the Tornado is supply and demand. How many Tornados have been sold in the last few years? Have any of the Exploders actually sold at the price given, or is it part of the campaign for the games?
I don't know the answers, and I'm not accusing the Tornado class of anything, but I'm not sure it's a great comparison.
Yea I don't buy it. I understood the Tiger going up as the US dollar inflated compared to the Euro. Than the Wild Cat came out and was up there too. But the Infusion was up there in price along with them well before production moved over seas. Besides, I thought they were being built in China. Isn't labor suppossed to be cheaper over there? Other wise, why move production at all. I think the reallity of it is because they can.
As for the Melges, yes they are expensive little buggers, but it is all really gotten out of hand.
Rich, I get your angst, but you're still comparing a used boat to a new boat - a boat with no class racing in the US to one with lots - and your budget for tax and shipping is pretty tight. A full container from the EU is running about $600/boat with 8-10 boats. You can risk consolidated freight for about $1,200-1,500 plus whatever you get charged by whoever packs it. Then pay your tax when it clears customs.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just factual. You can change the question and get a different answer, I suppose.
If you're looking for a good, used F18, deals abound! Drop me an email and I'll point you at some killer, unadvertised rigs.
edit - Ah, now I see the Exploder price. I don't know anyone who's bought one, so I have no idea if that is real. Note the massive price difference between the Exploder and the Marstrom.
Hey Collin -
Yep, the labor is cheaper, which means the margin is better at the top-tier, which ain't your local dealer or the sailors.
I work in the composites industry. I know that our resin and chemical prices have at least doubled since 2004. The cost of insurance and compliance in the US has been about the same. Every other purchased component , supply etc has gone up also. A double price point boat is not that unrealistic.
Nacra, ahpc, and now Cirrus are all leading the charge to China. No compliance regulations to speak of and cheap labor.
I do not think it is fair to blame currency as the relative rate all across the globe is about the same increase. To believe the class hype that a tight rule set will provide pricing security and/or equal racing is pretty much BS too.
For a long time the Tiger ruled and Hobie was able to more than recover their investment. The success of the class has brought on a huge series of development projects. The Tiger lost at Worlds and just like that we have the Wildcat. The cap while still an almost new design, quickly developed a bad reputation for some of its handling and bam out comes the C2. Nacra had 3 designs come out. Get on any older F18 and a new 1 and the rig development alone makes them almost completely different to sail: constant sail making and rigging evolution. Right now the group all has to tool up new deep daggers. All these things cost money and will continually drive costs of new product. You want to keep costs in line then quit racing.
I spent less than 3K for my first new H16. Now a strict 1 design boat (with relatively speaking zero technology) with all of its development tooling and sales long long ago paid for sells for around 11K.
Like John said: we still have it incredibly good for the relative cost of what we get when buying a cat.
P.S. is that one of the Polish T’s?
I bought a pair of blank carbon mast tubes from Marstom years ago that cost me nearly that much, so I know that price for a new T was not from them.
Just a clarification, Nacra boats and the Viper are built in the same factory in Thailand. Not sure about the C2.
Sorry, but comparing the cost of F18 to Melges and telling us it's all OK? Really?
Sort of like saying why does a Prius cost so much, and being told that a Lexus costs so much more, so it's OK for the Prius to be overpriced.
Apples and oranges.
Having said that, we're all pretty cheap (frugal, whatever), and I personally think they are all way out of line for what you get. Not that I could make them cheaper, I just hate the costs.
Mike
Its more because of stupid environmental laws than anything that everyone has moved their production to Asia.
and, your dollar is fu(king worthless.
Hey, you want to go faster, cheaper?
Get out of the water! For $4,500 you can buy this kit and build it in your garage.
It's like a Harley...with Wings!
http:/
Here's a video of it in flight; http:/
Greed Plain and simple.Supply and demand. All the reasons JDub gave increased the price but not to the point of where we are now and the melges crap is just lip service(he likes to call it a straw man).
They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.
Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is,
Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?
Not at all, Mike - I guess a better way to put it is,
Why are M24s so much more expensive than an F18?
But we are not on a Melges forum are we.
My original post was just that the price goes up a lot faster than what we are getting.
They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.
Yeah, what he said.
Wonder what the new falcon marine f18 will cost.
Matt has a nice target number, but I don't know if he'll have a final price until the first boat is out of the mold... or maybe the second?
The main reason why and F18 costs more than a Tornado from Exploder is the foils... To build a set of foils for a Tornado is very easy, but the F18 is really quite expensive to build due to the length and shape of the boards. From our perspective we could save some money on the foil construction by building them wet layup with foam like everyone else, but by going prepreg autoclave built we have super stiff foils that are unbreakable (rocks excluded..) Sure it costs more, but it works better and it is after all a race boat...
We currently build our Phantom in the same factory as the Exploder Tornado and all the rest is about the same costs. We take a lot of time with the hull construction because we want a super stiff boat and we use a bit more material compared to the tornado because the hull weights in F18 are higher than the Tornado, So we could actually save money by reducing the F18 min weight <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Thanks for that Macca.
So the rule to keep a minimum weight is keeping costs up?
They're not stupid laws if you don't have to shut down the entire region's industry for a few months when you want to go sailing. Or breathe.
EPA and most Gov regulations are out of control, Way too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
The price on most toys seems to have really jumped in the past 6-8 years. I did some searching back through old receipts on a project I did in 2006 and was surprised to see 30-50% increases on parts across the board since then.
I bought a boat in January 2010 and bought the same boat just recently in March 2012. The 2012 has longer dagger-boards so there is some increase in value there. I calculated the cost of each boat converting USD to the currency of the country the boat was manufactured in at the time of purchase (AUS). The DECREASE in price (not accounting for two years of inflation) was 3.6%.
In USD terms the INCREASE was 14%.
I got quotes from another brand at the time of both purchases and the increase in USD terms was just about the same 13.7% (this new boat also had longer dagger-boards).
http:/
Oh dear god, I just priced a gallon of West System (I haven't bought any in a while...not many composite projects going on lately and I usually buy by the gallon). Almost $100 for a gallon of resin...I think I paid about half that the last time I bought it (not but a couple of years ago).
I wouldn't say it is all greed but more so making the money while they can... I'll bet if we spun the clock back when the manufactures were pushing 20 or 30 boats a week out the door like they were in the hey day of catamaran sailing the prices would be a little lower.
2012 - built overseas, money to Nacra Europe.
From what I remember back then they had looked at manufacturing elsewhere due to all the EPA, other regulations, and fees they had to pay to manufacture in Santa Ana..
As for the price being high, if you're willing to pay the price for what I am selling the product for; then so be it, and don't complain.