Chicken Lines

Kevin,

I've been wanting to add them to my 5.2 as well. My concern about their setup is the leeward carabiner is dragging in the water and slapping against the hull. This may be OK for a leased boat but I wouldn't want this on my personal boat.

My thought was to take a line and tie a series of loops in it where I might trapeze and leave the carabiner on the dogbone all the time. Grab the line and find the loop closest and hook it in the beaner. I do like the climbing knot though - might do that instead of the loops but still leave the carbiner on the dogbone.

I just realized that they probably leave the carabiner hooked into the dog bone to keep it out of the water and from slapping the side of the boat....hmmm....I like it!

Anyone have details on the climbing knot they are using here?

I have been thinking about since a bow-stuff in the recent Newport-Ensenada race caused my crewmate to fly around the bow of our I20, breaking the spinnaker pole and ending the race for us.

A search on Google found this link:

http://www.scouts.asn.au/knots_ad.html

"A knot used by climbers. It is made with a strop (endless loop, either spliced or tied) round the main climbing rope. It can be loosened and slid along the rope to vary its position on the rope."

It looks like you just loop the "chicken line" (the one with the carabiner) around the "jack line" (the fore-aft one) twice.

I'm definitely getting some version of this on my boat, as I have often wished I had something similar when ocean sailing in good winds.

Sail fast and have fun,

Alan Thompson

I20 - San Diego

try this link...it has more details . Also, you can vary the number of wraps to vary the friction generated by the knot.

Alan

You know...it looks like that if you make this short 'chicken line' from that external chord / internal bunji stuff (used a lot for fixed righting lines under the boat), you could use this to replace the bunji that retains the dogbone normally....maybe...hmmm.

Jake,

That biner flopping in the water was a problem for me, too. Like you, I like the idea of attaching the biner to the trap or dog bone better. Of course, it will add another piece of metal that can potentially tatoo the crew's head when released from the end of the boat.

I'm thinking that I will make the lines easy to remove, so that they're not something that will get in the way on days when the winds are light.

.....how's about you just slide both lines back to the rear beam, then clip the on a strategically placed loop of line at the aft end of the tramp to keep them out of the way

Alan Thompson

I20 - San Diego

I was thinking about an eye strap (or an offset strap) mounted on the transom. The aft end of the chicken line would tie into it, with the forward end attached to the shroud (or perhaps run all the way to the front beam). I could just untie the line and put it in my tramp bag on days when I don't need it. I struggle with the idea of adding things like chicken lines. I try to keep my tramp as clean and uncluttered as possible (which is not saying much with the Nacra 6.0). Seems that anything that's lying around is just too easy to get tangled up in. Chicken lines do make a lot of sense, though. The winds here today were blowing in the upper 20's to low 30's, with a very steep 4 foot chop. I've taken enough wild rides to the forestay, and am installing foot loops and chicken lines over the next week or so.

Kevin,

If you put an eye strap on the transom in a hard stop with crew weight over 300lbs. You will rip the eye out of the hull !!!

You can put the attachment line on your harness and hook it to a few loops on the main hook line (attached to the boat). Then you only have one line to worry about and you just need to release one line before you unhook from the trap.

This also helps you from "hopping" in big waves. If you crash the bungee will let you get down to the water.

Steve

Kevin-

My old 18 sq. had a chicken line internal to the rear beam tensioned w/ bunji so when not in use the hook (w/ plastic ball) just sat up snug against the Nacra plastic endcap.

My Taipan is rigged with a chicken line from the rear of the boat that ends in a plastic ball and hook but has a bunji w/ loop in the end that the line runs through. The bunji (which extends between the two chicken lines within the rear beam) runs inside the rear beam and retracts the excess line into the rear beam when not in use holding the ball/hook up against the end of the rear beam. You should have checked it out at SF Jake (not that we needed them there!)-

If this wasn't clear let me know and I'll try to explain better or draw a picture/take one for you-

Kirt

Admittedly, an eystrap is pretty weak, even with a backing plate. I was looking at some heavier duty U-bolts and using a larger backing plate. My thinking is that since the chicken line wraps over the top of the transom before leading forward, that bend would keep the forces lateral to the bolts through the transom. Again, I'd like to hear what others have done.

Kevin, I've been reading this forum for quite sometime and thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth. In thinking about adding a line, Why not go through the front and rear beams in a complete circle. Add bungy within the beams just enough to keep things taught, but don't splice the bungy into the line, just use it as a "take up". This will allow you to make the line as long as needed. Keep the whole system from rotating by adding stop knots outside the beam endcaps. This would make a clean setup, however it would limit fore and aft movement to being within the scope of the length of the line and bungy... further thought, use the center trap bungy as an eye to keep the rope at the top edge of the hulls. I'm curious to know how this will end up.

Hiding the system in the rear beam is a neat idea, but I'm concerned that it wouldn't give the driver enough angle on the chicken line when trapezing in the aft position. This is why (I believe) the Worrell teams anchor the chicken line at the stern, not the rear beam.

When going fast (reaching or downwind) is when you are going to need the chicken lines the most. In this situation you really need to be as far back as possible on the boat. In my experience on both the P19 and I20, having your weight aft is more important than trapezing when broadreaching.

If you are trapezing at the rear beam, the chicken line must be anchored aft of your position in order to provide an aft-ward force.

Alan Thompson

I20 - San Diego

Kevin-

That's the beauty of my current Taipan system- It's within the rear beam mostly but when "deployed" it connects you to the rear of the boat- See attachemnt for close up of rear beam and on next post an "aerial" view of the line crossing the rear of the deck from the rudder pintle to the rear beam (this is where the line supports you from)-

Kirt

Here's the other picture- See attachment. Went ahead and made of collage of both rear hulls-

Hope you can tell what's going on-

Kirt

With the exception of big water and long distance racing, would not the use of "foot-straps" be adequate for stability?

Michael-

You'll note my boat has footstraps (one per side at the very rear of the hull) AND the "chicken line"- footstraps for the skipper, line for the crew. But you are correct, you could just add more footstraps and many people do, but some people don't like footstraps between the beams--

Kirt

We are talking two things here. Tethers and chicken lines. Tethers keep you attached in the worst case situations and chicken lines keep you in control when sailing out of control. A chicken line system requires that the bitter end be tied off to the stern of the boat for the captain has enough leverage to use the line to counter forward momentum. Through beam does not work. In addition, it needs to be retractable. The best chicken line systen on a Nacra 6.0 I have seen is quite simple. You need 2, 10 foot pieces of 5/16 line. Tie the line to the rubber pin with a bow line, then run the line along side the boat. Attach a bungie cord to the line. feed the bungie through the crews trapezee groumet in the trampoline and repeat on the other side. Adjust to tension system. This will give plenty of security to the captain and crew for forward motion whenever you go submarine.

Tethers are a separate subject. I recommend a system that is center trampoline based. This eliminates the needs to uncleat and cleat. Rick White interviewed John Tomko of Team San Antoinio during this years Worrell and he describes this system. If you want a separate system, use the beam system with lots of bungie and blocks. Still have to remember to hook up after each tack and sometimes this can be hard to do when it is blowing 25 and the boat is flying.

By the way on Inter-20's you cannot tie off to the rudder because they do not have full length pins. On these boats you do need to put an eyestrap on the stern. An eye strap with good through bolts will hold all the weight you give it. If you pull off the stern then you fix it but iI don't believe this will happen. If you put that much force on it. the boat will just move and the energy disipated (sp?). Now if the boat was tied down then you may tear off the stern.

good luck.

I had a footstrap aft of the rear beam on my previous P19, and it didn't really help that much when the driver is trapping all the way aft. Because of the angle of the trapeze wire, you have enough forward force from this alone that virtually all of your weight is on your forward foot. The foot strap helped some, but was not enough to work well when you buried the leeward bow and suddenly went from 15 kts to 5 kts - your foot tends to slide out of the footstrap in this case.

While you could arrange things to really lock your foot into the strap, you would then invite severe foot injuries in the event of a sudden stop. This is not something you want to mess with.

I have considered putting the foot straps on my current I20 as a supplement to the chicken lines, but only after I get the chicken lines installed and working to my satisfaction. Also, you need a little practice before you know exactly where you want to place the foot straps (you don't want to drill a lot of holes in your boat before you know where you finally get the straps in the right position!).

Alan Thompson

I20 - San Diego

Mark-

Good point about the tethers vs chicken lines, technically slightly different. Another clean "chicken line" system I've used was the one I had on my 5.0- it's sold by Murray's - just a line frunning from rear rudder pin (eyestrap, whatever) along the hull, through a large eyestrap at front lower corner of the front beam, under tramp through block connected to bunji to keep line tensioned, then around to other rudder pin/etc. If long enough can double as righting line- With the fancy sliding knot previously shown this could double as a tether also- A variation is to use the large "hollow" line w/ bunji inside- Just make sure eyestrap is large enough for line to run through w/o "bunching"-

As for the footstraps- I feel they also help maintain control and "contact" with the boat when it's "jumping around" for whatever reason (going over wave, cleat releases suddenly, crew bumps/bangs into you). Usually, when my rear foot is in the footstrap my forward foot is squarely planted against the back of the rear beam (see previous photos) on the Taipan which is a nice, flat "footrest"-

Kirt

Michael wrote:

>With the exception of big water and long distance racing,

>would not the use of "foot-straps" be adequate for stability?

It is for big water and long distance racing that I'm installing chicken lines. For flatter water and buoy racing, I plan to remove them.

Mark,

I agree. Tethers are a separate issue. The chicken line that you describe seems to be very similar to the one shown on the LexisNexis boat in the photos at the beginning of this thread. I don't know why I didn't think to just tie it off to the rudder pin. (I guess I just assumed it would interfere with the rudder.) I do like the LexisNexis system of adding an additional line to limit the stretch of the bungie, as well as Jake's suggestion for attaching the biner to the trap ring.

This just in from the Tommy Bahama story about rounding Cape Hatteras:

“My chicken lines broke. Both of them,” said Brendan Busch of Lexis Nexis, speaking of the safety lines used to prevent skipper and crew from flying forward when smashing into the back of a wave, experiencing sudden and drastic deceleration. “They didn’t wear through or get cut – they broke.”

Conditions were described as follows:

"With wind gusts near 30 knots and 9-foot seas, Alex and Nigel sailed around Cape Hatteras through the Diamond Shoals, an area off the Outer Banks that had swallowed more debris than Charlie Brown’s kite eating tree. Several boats found themselves sliding down the backs of monster waves with nowhere to go, a howling wind behind them, and the cold Atlantic waiting with arms wide."

Kevin,

This system is not complicated and does not effect the rudders. I was concerned with using the rudder pin but found it worked well. You could add the eyestrap for your own comfort and this would keep the systems independent in case of failure.

The 6.0 is a fast strong boat so chicken lines are really handy when the wind picks up. Next thing you know you will be sailing 25 knots with a grin and fear your eyes.

Mark,

> The 6.0 is a fast strong boat so chicken lines are really

> handy when the wind picks up. Next thing you know you

> will be sailing 25 knots with a grin and fear your eyes.

The problem now is when I have it clocking 25 knots WITHOUT the chicken lines! That's when there's fear in the eyes.

If one wanted a 'chicken line' for crew only....is there any harm in simply attaching a line to each side's respected shroud, then just hooking that to your harness? ( a bowline on the bitter end)

Ending the chicken lines on the rudder pins or gudeons and going forward appears to be the way to accomplish what is needed, however, are the rudder assemblies strong enough to withstand 300+ lbs being thrown against them?(actually much more if you count momentum). What would be the best way to attach to the gudeons. would some sort of strap or eye attached across the two bolts be enough? What about cracking the transom? just more thoughts.

I'm interested in doing the same thing to my 5.5SL. Adding footstraps, that is. Gets pretty hairy in a downwind blow trying to balance back on the sterns.

1st problem:

How do you decide what angle and position to set it at (& where to drill the holes)

#2: Where can you purchase the straps anyway?

Thanks,

CARY

Cary-

Check out Murray's- They have them both in the Cat section and windsurfer section as I recall or you can "make your own" out of webbing and webbing straps (see mine on the Taipan in attachment above post). On my old 18 sq. (same hulls as yours) we mounted them on the top edge of the hull (so the leeward one doesn't "drag" in the water), back them up REALLY well w/ SS fender washers or (better) SS plates or Aluminum plates and 3M 5200 or epoxy (better) to spread the load out on the hull. Use a rear port to get access to the inside of your hull-

Kirt