The media IS the Democraptic party!

I really like the way Florida has been doing it with the paper. I just wouldn't trust a strictly data-driven system. Data can easily go *poof* during a malfunction and it's gone forever. I also feel it can be easily manipulated if hacked. It's much harder to manipulate hard paper with the oversight they have set up. I think their check-in procedures are pretty spot on as well. You have to be on their list of registered voters and show ID. I'm sure there are still bad players who can abuse the system this way, but it is much more difficult than simply jumping on a bus and riding from polling station to polling station.

I'm still a little lost on the ID requirement. You are either a registered voter on the list or you aren't. If you aren't on the list, you can't vote. If you are on the list and already voted, you can't vote. Only if you are on the list in your precinct and have not registered a vote can you vote again. It would be really difficult to leverage that to your advantage on any significant scale.

The ID requirement stops someone from voting fraudulently as a dead voter... IE the recently dead who have not been purged from the voting roles.

The 1960 election is mythologized as thousands of dead voters swinging the election to Kennedy from Nixon in Chicago. This was driven by the Daley Democratic machine who made the levers churn by using their machine. The republicans are hyping the risk of the dead voting to provide a reason for ID restrictions that suppress minority vote. The issue is not presenting an ID... its presenting one of the approved photo ID's which are pricey to get. The benefit of course is that it suppresses vote in the urban areas where

THOSE

voters are.

At the end of the day.. you are correct that it is really difficult to leverage the dead voting. Truth be told... its much easier to send the oldest and most likely to malfunction machines to the areas where you want to suppress vote.. Waiting in line for 6 hours can be the norm in some areas. The impact of voter ID laws happen well before the voting period... It raises the bar for voters so that they don't even try to re register after a change of address, life status, etc (money, time, headache, confusion, etc)

I didn't mean to imply that the worker reading my ballot at the scanner was attempting to commit fraud in any way. But, it leaves a very unpleasant impression (far too nosey for why should be a secret process).

One year, the guy actually took a moment to stop and read it, I guess trying to read it as it was being pulled into the scanner was too much of a challenge...

We don't get folders or sheaths, just a ballot. I suppose anyone in the area with good eyes could read it, not just the worker in that position.

Mike

An approved photo ID is a pricey venture?

I don't believe in large scale fraud, but I also have a hard time believing that an appropriate ID is such a burden. In fact I hardly see how it's practical to get through life these days without one.

My drivers license is my only photo id and it costs $140 per two years. (State went on a user fee binge under Erlich.

What other state approved photo ID do you have in your wallet AND that is readily available. (Oh and its 20 bucks to get a copy of a birth certificate for any of these things... .... so if you need a birth certificate to vote... this is all known as a poll tax)

Hmm, a DMV issued photo ID (not a drivers license) is free in this state to anyone over 17. Must provide proof of identity, citizenship and residency in this state.

http://www.scdmvonline.com/dmvnew/default.aspx?n=identification_cards

Looks like the same thing would cost you $24 every 8 years. Free to seniors. Again I don't see this as a huge burden.

http://www.dmv.org/md-maryland/id-cards.php

I hardly see it as a

poll tax

these are all things that are very useful in everyday life.

wow! I've never lived anywhere were the drivers license required fees like that or that much renewal...MY SC license has been valid for 10 years and I think there's a $20 fee associated with it or something.

I want to say seven years and $35 for renewal here in Minnesota.

USER FEES... are my states republican way of cutting taxes but maintaining the revenue. We invented the flush tax... to pay for waste treatment plants and then applied it to septic owners.... Lots of noise about that one.. but... all in all it worked so... the next admin was democratic and created the Rain tax to pay for the EPA consent decree to mange rain water runoff waste water into the bay. So, the next admin promised to kill the rain tax... and pay for the consent decree... though general revenue. So we come full circle... at the end of the day... you have to pay for things.... what you call it... is marketing.

So... charge anything for a photo id... that you require for voting.. its a poll tax. Now ... how you market it... well

Is there a breakdown of what those fees are used for... such as the State Patrol, etc.....

I thought in MD you could get an ID card for $15.00 that will last 8 years... has this changed?

Funny... went to the doctor the other day... they know me I know them, but now with the AHA they need a copy of my ID with each visit or they don't get reimbursed... seems you can't get through life without a photo ID these days

It's not

known

as poll tax, it's SPUN as poll tax. As mentioned above, there are places where seniors can get them for free.

A driver's license is a privilege, not a right. It's happens to be a convenient form of photo ID. There are other forms.

As you noted, everything costs money, to print, administer, etc.

A really smart government would make the IDs free to protect the legitimacy of the vote, and pay for it out of general funds. Of course, that will never happen with our overly-partisan system that values fight and change over working together to make us stronger.

Mike

Not to start a fight about voter fraud, but didn't one of the Democratic leaders up North (NY?) admit to bussing folks around from precinct to precinct and casting multiple votes? Maybe I have been a victim of false news???

EDIT: I don't know the credibility of the source but here is the story.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/10/18/project-veritas-election-videos/#

Old saying

No tickey No laundry

Jake,

Florida used those electronic only machines for one of the elections a bit ago (I think after the 2000 election debacle) but moved back to the electronic/paper system after the questions were raised about accountability.

With the paper trail, not only can we verify the # votes = # voters, but we can audit the machine itself (# votes for candidate 1 = # ballots for candidate 1).

I think there was a rumor that one precinct in Texas 2008 had a machine programmed wrong so that a vote for candidate 1 was actually checking the box for candidate 2.

And our paper ballots are issued with a privacy sleeve to be used by the voter until such time as they (themselves) insert it in the machine.

As to the issue of voter ID, I agree that some forms of ID cost money (and therefore can be seen as a sort of

poll tax

). But the list of photo/signature ID is rather large and includes some forms of ID that are free (photo/signature credit card is one that pops out in my mind). But the vast majority use Driver license / ID or Passport.

Those who don't have ID are given a provisional ballot to be evaluated by a separate

canvassing board

who establish the citizen's right to vote and count that ballot if those eligibility criteria are met.

What is really interesting, however, is the vast differences between states as to how they handle the election process.... Surely there must be some

best practices

list of things that is shared among states. But since voting is left under the pervue of state gub'ment I guess it's all up to elected representatives...

Mike... a really smart government.... Say WHAT!

Starting with John F. Kennedy’s victory over Richard Nixon in 1960, Delia Anderson had voted in 14 straight presidential elections.

She had cast her ballot at the same polling place for years, never with a glitch. This year, however, a volunteer driving her to the polls mentioned that she would be asked to show a state-approved photo ID.
ADVERTISING

“Don’t these poll people already know who I am?” replied Anderson, who is 77, black and uses a wheelchair, as she frantically sifted through her purse for anything to prove her identity.

It was a lost cause. She had planned to vote for Hillary Clinton. Instead, for the first time in 56 years, she did not cast a ballot.

“Lord, have mercy,” she said. “What happened to voting?”

In Wisconson...

from la times

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-minority-voter-suppression-2016-story.html

OH... and even a charge of 15 dollars for the right to vote... is aka a poll tax. Semantics!

So far... i believe they have ID 1 case of voter fraud in the last election....

But not All places will provide an ID for free - relatively few are. If you have to pay money for an ID, that you wouldn't need otherwise, and you need that ID in order to place a vote - It doesn't take much spin to consider that a poll tax.

That said, most of us need that ID for other things (driving a car) and it comes in handy for a lot of other things. With that being the case, most of us see very little issue or hassle with having to provide one to vote. However, the Constitution does not intend for only

most of us

to be able to vote.

For Florida at least:

Approved forms of picture identification are:

Florida driver's license

Florida identification card issued by the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles

United States passport

debit or credit card

military identification

student identification

retirement center identification

neighborhood association identification

public assistance identification

veteran health identification card issued by the United States Department of Veterans Affairs

license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm issued pursuant to s. 790.06

an employee identification card issued by any branch, department, agency, or entity of the Federal Government, the state, a county, or a municipality (Section 101.043, F.S.)

Some of these forms of ID do not require money, only the time/effort to obtain it. Those not willing to spend that time/effort probably won't want to spend time voting either?

Delia Anderson at 77 years of age more than likely is getting social security benefits as well as medicare
How can she cash the checks or open a bank account with out proper ID

I'm a homeless person with no bank account who makes my

living

standing on a street corner with a

Help Me

sign and I spend my nights in a shelter. I'm too proud to be on public assistance - or maybe my reading skills aren't good enough to read the form. I watch the news on television at the shelter and I want to vote in the election. The State of Florida is preventing me from voting.

Your argument is invalid.

Given that there haven't been any serious documented cases where a lack of ID requirement was leveraged to create forged votes on any significant scale, why are IDs a big deal?...unless you want to keep a particular group from voting...which isn't very constitutional. You're much more likely to die in a car crash that experience a fraudulent vote but I don't hear you guys screaming for a reduction in speed limits or 5 point harnesses ;-).

It's not like you can just walk up to any precinct to vote. You still have to be a registered voter in THAT precinct and that registration only gets to vote once.

This is just typical of the BS spin... How can XXX not have ID in this country blah blah blah....
the ISSUE is PHOTO ID for VOTING... not proper ID for voting. The little old lady had tons of ID... some probably government issued... just not PHOTO ID...

There is NO PROBLEM with individual Voter fraud by false ID photo or otherwise.
There are NO revolving door polling places where you cast votes as mr jones... mr smith and mr brown. The republicans cannot produce any data... much less compelling data that demonstrates a problem.

PHOTO ID requirements are a way to raise a barrier to voting that impact some demographics more then others. I don't know why they just don't cut the polling booths by half in the areas that don't support the powers in charge. Much more effective.

HEY... you could have voted if you waited in line for 6 hours... Your choice!

IMO, Both are barriers that are un American.

OH..BTW
We don't have

Papers

in this country. You don't have to walk around with specific government ID AT ALL...

I don't know of any law that requires you to carry ID ... AT ALL
Now... if you want to have that debate... Let' have at it. (HINT... its a real issue for all those wanting actual immigration caps and enforcement AND it will redefine American Values.

Hmm Too proud to go on public assistance but not too proud to beg

That's not what we're talking about here. That was an example and I think you missed the point <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Again Mark, this is not BS spin.... for her to apply and receive SS benefits she needed a photo ID, for her to cash her SS check, she'll need a photo ID, for her to apply and received Medicaid benefits she needed a photo ID, the list goes on...

Leave you photo ID at home and see how far you can get without it..

Oh! In CA if you're on public assistance, the card is free.... pretty sure this is the same for most states

Your right, this is not a federal law, but it is a state law in many states that are part of the Interstate Motor Vehicle Compact... which Maryland and Virginia are part of...

The government issued ID problem is much bigger than many of you believe. 3.2 million Americans do not possess a government-issued picture ID according to a 2012 study co-authored by Norden.

from http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote

You marry these facts with a lack of actual fraud that these new rules are prophesied to protect us against and it's pretty easy to assume there is an ulterior motive...or at least a quietly agreeable benefit to those that are putting these rules in place.

Jake highlights facts.. YOU (Or me) don't get to say how you choose to live in this country. So... the little old lady has not needed a photo ID to live her life in this country for 70 plus years.. You don't get to judge that reality and deny them a constitutional right. ...

Matt's principled street beggar gets to choose their existence... and you also don't get to judge that as up or down and deny them constitutional rights either.

We are talking about VOTING.... not functioning in American society according to a standard that YOU or your political party wants to impose.

So... we eventually got the constitutional right to vote mostly sorted out. Blacks, can now vote... Woman can now vote.... you don't have to own property to vote..

All constitutional rights are balancing acts and the specific details get decided by the Supremes.

On the one hand, you have a legitimate concern that all votes are cast according to the constitution.... and on the other hand.... what is an undue burden on individuals voting to ensure that result.

as Jake points out... some populations don't have photo Id. I point out that PROOF of voter ID voting fraud is trivial and almost non existent. Moreover, the difference a photo ID would make on the trivial numbers documented are vanishingly small and the impact of fraud of this type hardly decisive in normal political election. (Counting and arithmetic errors in one county swamp the literally handful of documented voter fraud cases nationwide)

So... What is your argument that PHOTO ID voting requirements is a BALANCED response to the legitimate concern that elections are representative, fair and accurate. Don't forget our constitution takes into account the rights of the individual and stops majorities from stomping on individuals. ... So... balance away...

You and your fantasy scenario's.

This state has a law where you have to ID yourself on demand.

We have got to this point because people lie and cheat.

Why do we take our shoes off to get on a plane?

Because of one guy.

If you are not responsible enough to get an ID then maybe you should not vote.

And watching the news at a shelter, LOL. What ABC, CBS, NBC, please.

You don't like our state laws, stay the hell out.

Remind me again on how much that cost you and the verification process you were subjected to for this privilege?