The media IS the Democraptic party!

Uhhh, no.

Not if that means getting an ID. It changes the rules and excludes a very certain demographic from voting, for no good reason other than tilting the vote in a particular flavor. It's not complicated. It's evil. Stop changing the rules that don't need to be changed. There is no fraudulent voting of any scale that makes changing these rules necessary. The line of thinking that there is fraud that must be fixed by requiring IDs is a lie. Plain and simple. That lie is created to make it harder for a certain demographic to place a vote. That benefits the people that are continuing the lie. This isn't complicated.

I'm easy to convince that IDs are necessary. Just show me where the actual fraud is that these rules will protect us from. Certainly you would agree, that given the amount of energy put into these ID laws, that if there was wide scale voter ID fraud that was swinging elections that it would be pretty easy to detect and show. Nobody has been able to do that - why? It's a lie.

Yup. If you marked it wrong, you

spoil

that one and get a new one (subject to a max of 3 tries).

If it won't go in the scantron (keeps getting pushed back) you get to keep trying until it works (the voter is the only one handling the ballot). But once accepted your vote is

cast

and you are done.

On the privacy at home voting thing, you have an envelope for the ballot that goes in the mailing envelope. So I guess you could vote your conscience and then seal it up so your spouse can't get eyes on it...

and good point Jake.

If you didn't see earlier our state's voter registration form doesn't require any ID other than knowing your SSN.

These forms are available on the web, libraries, at any election/driver license office, and are handed out on a regular basis by any political activity group.

So perhaps that might ease (or eliminate) the

poll tax

argument.

Although you do have to mail your ballot which is something like $0.60 now?

Agreed. I'm done here. Hopefully this dies faster than the drill thread.

I respect that there are those here with a different opinion on this topic than mine. Hopefully the feeling is mutual.

Mike

Nope... no pass... on the can't we just set aside our differences of opinion.

Mike, were it just a benign difference of opinion....
take a difference of opinion on war and peace... while in no way inconsequential, is ... just a difference of opinion. (I can respect your differing opinion and be done with it. Agree to disagree and all that... I will buy you a beer) You and I don't have any responsibility in that debate. War and peace is not a constitutional issue at the core of democracy.

We have a constitutional democracy which has over the years corrected itself to reflect our American Ideal with respect to citizenship and voting. We pledge allegiance to the constitution and we take responsibility as citizens to honor, preserve and protect the constitution and the rights that it bestows. George Washington and the other founders spoke about our interdependence in our democracy. So... at stake are the rights of other citizens to vote.

Yes, you have an opinion as to these voter photo id laws and their impact on some citizens in the country. I respect that part... However, unlike a difference of opinion on war and peace, etc. I ask you to consider your responsibility as a citizen to honor and uphold the constitution. Will you test your opinion against the reality? What facts do you have that voter photo ID laws are not taking away some people's constitutional rights? What facts of jake's do you discount?

See Jake's last post and address the facts as a responsible citizen.... Not just a citizen with opinions.

Remember, The civil war was not a difference of opinion... it was a constitutional crisis. Richard Nixon precipitated a constitutional crisis when he fired all of those people at justice (separation of powers). These were not just differences of opinion. Citizens had the responsibility to resolve the issue. (eg slavery/secession and the president must obey the law)

Trumps pretty powerful, with one tweet that the new fighter was no good, he got our parliament to start looking for a new fighter

bump, more sailing threads if you want this one gone

Why am I so fired up about just an

opinion

about what is at the core of a democratic republic,

voting rights

.

George Bush's speech writer, Michael Gerson, wrote this this AM.

Voting Rights are fundamental to America... We have a responsibility to protect them by debunking the noise that fuels

opinion

and remind everyone that citizen is the most powerful position in a democracy and with citizenship comes responsibility (cribbed bits from current AG).

the one with audio is much better 😉

Only 3 more days until MAGA

I had to clarify my earlier posts that photo ID is only required to vote in person.

A photo ID is NOT required to register to vote (or vote by mail) in my state.

See below, I had to steal Jake's coding to get it to load, thanks Jake.

I like this one better still...but...

I am not talking about the pee pee!

Only 2 more days to go until MAGA

Is this really the best you guys could come up with?
He didn't even know how many countries make up Europe (something that a US president really should know IMO).

He is also becoming aware that companies are using him to recycle their old business news for cheap PR (companies don't do $1B investments decisions in a week).

Ya see Tony facts and intelligence are no longer relevant. Trump has promised to make white people great again and that's all that matters so anything Trump says or does is acceptable because it's all part of the plan to make Merica white and christian the way god intended!

#peepeeparty #grabthembythepussy

300 million people and Trump and Clinton were our only choices... yes it is pretty sad...

This was an opportunity for a third party to really shine and what did they do with their candidates... shinola comes to mind.

ah... now we are back to matters of opinion.. If you are a fan of 3rd parties... are you also in favor of a parliamentary system?

assuming the answer is no... as a practical matter... How would anything get done in our system with a third party president... with NO politicians of his side in the two legislative branches.. (This sounds like obama talking about hope and change in changing politics.... Nope!)

We have a two party system because that is what tends to work. Hell, Washington worried about parties given the design of the country ... The system is designed to be a FORCED CHOICE and to AMPLIFY small differences of opinion into a governing action. and it has a but.... The election is a forced choice... It's A or B.... and if you don't vote or vote third party...ONE of them wins... The system is designed to force a clear decision but over time ... that is the BUT. in two years... you get to vote in 1/3 of senate and all of the house. So that is why you build it with a forced choice. The idea is to get /force government actions and slow your roll.

Hating both candidates is unusual ... but in our system... you vote for one of them. If you don't... and then try to claim some non existent high ground... of ... a third party would have been better.... and then hating both of those guys... not to mention other people on the ballot. probably means you need to rethink how you vote in the two party system we have. Voting is not a beauty contest... its a forced choice. One of them will win. Doesn't matter if you like the choices... One of them will win.

The two party system would work if the politicians understood that they are there for the people they represent not their or their party's self interest... Which as of late has become a Them vs. Us manifesto

The truth is - a two-party system isn't really that Democratic when you think about it..

Go read George Washington's farewell address.. he pretty much summed it up.

You know - I have not seen so much vitriol since the last time a republican was elected.

But really - this time it has gone really over the top with hints of assasination and what not. Incredible things are said on

both

sides of this. At least that is the way it looks from my side of the pond.

But let me bring a small reminder from the last time (and I really thought this guy was not the smartest dude around - but.. Come on - he was elected and the US of A is a democracy as good as any)

To be honest - even if Trump is really a special piece of work - the media does look to be pretty biased. Even over time.

Tomorrow is MAGA day - and we will see the beginning of the Trump show. I bet his viewer ratings is improving all the time. Who will he fire first - and what executive orders will we see? How is the budget going to look, if there will be a budget..

Interesting times.

Funny you say that. My

sista from anotha mista

who happens to be non-white asked about

Make America Great... Again

.

She was wondering if that meant back in the day of Jim Crowe laws and such... oof

I agree... (small d democratic) The idiot Bernie supporters think that the PRIVATE Democratic Party... must be completely small d democratic... Nope... its a choice... a private party can function through smoke filled rooms as it once did. ...be much more in tune with what the founders wanted BTW ...

The devil in all of this political organizational stuff is... an attempt to answer

what do you do about human self interest when you try to govern

.

Hey... the founders understood self interest.. they made SURE that the constitution allowed self interest to petition the government.

So, exactly WHO do these politicians represent. you say they don't represent the people... and/or the people's interest.

I understand and can identify a real estate developers self interest.... a teacher's self interest, a miner's self interest, a pornographers self interest. Romeny argued the buisness's were people to.... I have NO idea what the

peoples

interest is.

I can see how a politician represents my interest as a ____ .
I can ID interests for any group in the country.... eg beach access for small catamaran sailors.... VERSUS owners of coastal waterfront property. What does a politician do to represent the people's interest?

So, ... How does that self interest work with the

People's

interest?

My view is that Trump was crystal clear about who's interest he represented in the election... He is on TV now talking about his group of voters and how he will turn it around for them ...
Now of course... tomorrow, he will be trying to obfuscate that stand and say... he is for the people's interest..

same as Obama, Same as Bush, Same as Clinton, Same as Bush, Same as Reagan, Same as Carter, same as Ford, same as Nixon, same as Johnson.

Can you say... ANY of these presidents served the

people's interest in anything but name only... No!... they favored and disparaged lots of things.... and BS'd that as THOUGH it was for the

people's interest

.

It's trivial to find opinion and many a fact on how each of these guys did not serve the

people's

interest....

So... IMO, I think the people's interest is a unicorn... and we would love to live in the fairy tale world of unicorns.... but that is not reality.

Seems to me...stop the fairy tale about the

people's interest

and just get down and fight it out...Put it out there... your self interest is XXX and as far as you are concerned... THAT is the people's interest.

Now if you want to talk about principals and values not interests... see the voting rights debate above. We pledge to American Principals.. (everyone's values are their values)

So perhaps the best way to deal with the unicorn called

the Peoples Interest

is contrasting Nixon and Clinton with respect to American PRINCIPALS.
When Nixon attacked the separation of powers... he was impeached ... going to lose and resigned instead. THAT was the only clear cut example of politicians operating on the American PRINCIPALS... some

peoples

interest in nixon finishing his term were killed. He WAS POPULAR until the end .. ... the universal American Principal in protecting and following the constitution as it has evolved through legitimate proscribed means was preserved.

Was it in the American Principle to impeach Clinton for an extramarital blow job and a gotcha legal proceeding answer? History would say nope... Historians have it down right now as partisan self interest. The public had clinton at 60 plus favorable through it all.

Was it on American Principles that Trump argued and promoted the fake news that Obama was illegitimate as president because he was born in Kenya? Or Self interest? Perhaps the people's interest???

Hmm...

IMO, when somebody waves the

peoples interest" at me... I take another hard look at it... Usually... its somebody's self interest at stake and not the People's Principles embodied in the constitution!

My interest is what is going on in my back yard - city and county government, and at my state's legislature... that is the stuff that is going to an effect on me everyday.. These are the politics that 99% of the electorate are asleep at the switch on.

My point still applies... It's all about self interest. forget the rhetoric about

peoples interest

So... if 99% of the electorate are asleep (sounds about right to me) what can you do?

My complaint akin to your complaint ,... If people are so damn upset... why are so many politicians re elected?

This stuff is not rational... I HATE the Patriots.... completely irrational... they have hall of fame coaching... hall of fame quarterback...can't tell you many players they win with... I just hate em... but who cares if I hate the patriots...
I think the same happens in politics for most people... You have a gut reaction...it's your team, D's or Rs... big difference... Politics has real impact on the world and people.

100% of the problem right there... we're on team D... therefore anything team R says or does is wrong no matter how right it is, it is wrong because... and Visa Versa.

Keep going, you're really helping build the argument for the need of a third party.

Consider this.... we have EXTREME partisanship... and weak Parties.

The Republican Party could not even nominate a Republican who would even parrot republican orthodoxy....

Parties have lost control of their message and their followers. Every Senator... thinks... I could be president... They work at being the Independent senator... D or an R SSSHH.... Every voter, says, I vote for the candidate... NOT the set of principles and values that an organized group.... aka a party stands on. The voter now believes that they should determine IF the candidate

authentically

stands on his campaign promises..

Parties are so weak... Heck, the very weak democratic party allowed a 30 year socialist candidate to join the party SOLELY to run as a democrat and then put up with him kvetching about the rules. BUT he was

authentic

The party platform is irrelevant to every candidate in this era. Why bother... You know your side D or R .... its too damn much work to figure out what your side is actually all about... BUT you know in your bones... that the other side is WRONG WRONG WRONG. and the most important feature of a candidate is

being authentic

and you can suss that out better then anyone....

TRUMP and his voters have proven that the Republican Party orthodoxy, aka ... libertarian driven economics, limited government, freedom abroad, muscular foreign policy was not even a majority opinion within the republican rank and file. We are back to the Charles Lindburgh

America First

party of the 30s...

So... Why exactly do you think a third party makes sense... you are not looking for a party organized around some principle... ... you are looking for

the leader who captures the public for a short period of time

In an election where...

being authentic

was won by the TV STAR over the Politician because... it was clear to the voter.. ... who was

being authentic

!

Consider,

being authentic

.... is like being an actor... a great actor is a master at

being authentic

in the role.
So, what ever you do...

BE AUTHENTIC

It's like George Costanza's view... Its' not a lie... if you believe it... aka BEING AUTHENTIC!

Well, from Trumps Speech yesterday... here we are.. you have

the Leader and his cabinet of oligarchs committed to saving The People from the carnage that is 2016 America created by the two party system of D's and Rs of the last 60 years. AND he is authentic!

Tell me why... a third party makes sense again? and standing on what philosophy... ?? Morever, the key point... can they

be authentic"?

Nope... you were right the first time... voters need to be informed on the issues, have actual facts in hand and then think about their principles and values and vote accordingly. hmm.. IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF WORK! Now, If you want to make a difference beyond your individual point of view/vote ... perhaps getting organized would make a difference.... hmm.... what should we call that thing again ....

I get a serious kick watching the far left freak the phuck out because Trump is now president.

What confuses me is why democrats are so up in arms about a Democrat being President.

The first press briefing was already full of easily verifiable lies, I find that very worrying.
This is not opinion or bias but just fact, it's important to be critical no matter if it's

your team

or not.